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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • Weezer
      Ha, those seem to happen regardless.  Sexual desire is even stronger than the fear of hell!!
    • walterpthefirst
      The mechanism of recurring novae and type 1A supernovae appear to be the same, Pantheory.   The siphoning off of gas from a donor star to its white dwarf companion.   Beyond that I don't know.
    • moxieflux66
      You mean like avoiding sexual sins? 😉
    • pantheory
      I wonder if it has ever been speculated as being the beginnings of a supernova someday? ...  since the system is comprised of a red giant and a white dwarf star according to the link.
    • walterpthefirst
      View Nova Explosion, ‘New’ Star in Northern Crown – Watch the Skies (nasa.gov)   You can find the constellation of Corona Borealis (the Northern Crown) from where you live by visiting this site.   Stellarium Web Online Star Map (stellarium-web.org)     T Coronae Borealis - Wikipedia   On 20 April 2016, the Sky & Telescope website reported a sustained brightening since February 2015 from magnitude 10.5 to about 9.2. A similar event was reported in 1938, followed by another outburst in 1946.  By June 2018, the star had dimmed slightly but still remained at an unusually high level of activity. In March or April 2023, it dimmed to magnitude 12.3.  A similar dimming occurred in the year before the 1946 outburst, indicating that it will likely erupt between March and September 2024.   So the star in question seems to be going through the same cycle of activity that preceded its 1946 eruption.     Keep looking up!     Thanks,   Walter.
    • walterpthefirst
    • Krowb
      Can't recall the exact wording, but a pastor of my youth something along these lines:   "a church that encourages its youth to gain degrees, empties its pews by degrees"   The sermon of course was regarding the worldiness of academia and why we needed to safeguard our kids to only christian institutions, but it also exposed something more fundamental; education, writ large, was regarded by my church as hostile to religious belief.    
    • Krowb
      I feel that religion, in some fashion, will be with us for the long haul.  Even "athiest" countries have been unable to stamp out religion, it's much more effective to co-opt it.  Religion claims to answer a question no other system (government/political/economic/societal) can - the afterlife.  The better/worse the promise of the afterlife, the more impetus to achieve/avoid it for the believer.   People are simply not 100% rational, and that's not a bad thing, just a fact of the human condition.  The same irrational passions that can drive beautiful works of art, including music, can be stirred by religious ideas as well.  Religion has an almost peculiar tendency to bring out the best or worst that humanity has to offer on a large scale.  Political movements only wish they could create zealots on the same scale as a even a moderately successful religion.
    • moxieflux66
      This site should be named "CringeWorthy Christian" it's that creepy. The last time I visited it had that unnatural "happy xtian ending" vibe to the thread. Yes, no small wonder it's closed, officially or unofficially. Ew.    I was hoping that I could find a video clip of Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian (trademark) to explain it to you but I haven't found it yet. I will post if/when I do. 😉
    • TABA
      Note: I have moved this topic here from the “Got Questions?” section where it was originally posted.  
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
       
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