[wt-hell?!]

Near the end of my deconversion, one of the things I had a hard time wrapping my brain around was the idea of original sin. I had been taught according to the bible that we are all sinners, from birth, because of the sin of Adam. Everyone, everywhere at any point in time was born into a nature of sin. We were not asked if we wanted to be a part of this sin nature or given any kind of option. It was just assumed that because we were children of Adam that we inherited his sin and therefore inherited the punishment of sin, death. Adam, to me, seems to be a very powerful man to have infected every single generation after him. Now, when I was a xian, it only seemed that Jesus, the son of God, would be so much more powerful and able to affect so many more people than little ol' Adam. However, the catch was that I had to acknowledge and accept the 'fact' that Jesus died and rose again according to scripture in order to receive the 'free gift' of salvation. Hold up, wait just one minute! I don't remember that being part of the contract that I'm bound to under Adam. I don't ever remember being asked to acknowledge and accept the 'fact' that Adam sinned and it affects me to death.
It seems logical to me, that god's grace and mercy extends to all equally and even more so than Adam's sin because god is simply more powerful. Even Romans 5:12-20 seems to suggest that as well:

Quote

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this set of verses, the word 'many' is thrown around alongside 'all men'. It's a little bit confusing when death came to many and the gift of grace came to many, but later on all men have sinned through one and all men are redeemed through one. Which part is supposed to be believed or understood? This was such a problem for me as a xian. I went through a period where I believed that all would be 'saved' in the end because of this scripture, but I eventually gave up on that belief too. But I'm curious to see what other ex-xians and xians think about this. I had been told by a minister before that in some cases where the word 'all' is used, it only means all of a particular group, not 'all men'. I don't understand why the xian religion makes you acknowledge and accept god's gift but automatically causes you to be cursed without your permission. Can god not act without our permission? Is he really not powerful enough to extend grace to those he loves? Does he not love 'all men' but only loves 'many'?

[Brakeman]

Adam's sin? didn't Eve sin first and wouldn't her first sin have spoiled the garden of Eden? I mean let's not get misogynistic here, who the heck is Adam? He was sinner number two and not very important, right? Verse 12 was obviously a typo, it was supposed to read WOmen..

I would think that it's the 'ol jesus died for everyone, but will still condemn any that don't follow his orders.

Why would god make any sin accessible to Adam and Eve? If he wanted us to love and adore him for all eternity, why did he mess it up? I have a almost two year old daughter that will get into anything, so it's my RESPONSIBILITY to keep dangerous things out of her grasp. It was god's responsibility to keep sin out of Eve's grasp. God is NOT a good parent.

(Of course I mean, if he weren't a figment of man's imagination)

[mwc]

I'll give my long explaination and hopefully it will make some sort of sense...

I'll go ahead and start in Romans 3 (I'll just use Romans and even though it will be long I will do my best not to make it too long so I'm just going to skip some stuff):

Quote

9 Now, we have knowledge that what the law says is for those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all men may be judged by God: 20 Because by the works of the law no man is able to have righteousness in his eyes, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now without the law there is a revelation of the righteousness of God, to which witness is given by the law and the prophets; 22 That is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all those who have faith; and one man is not different from another, 23 For all have done wrong and are far from the glory of God; 24 And they may have righteousness put to their credit, freely, by his grace, through the salvation which is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God has put forward as the sign of his mercy, through faith, by his blood, to make clear his righteousness when, in his pity, God let the sins of earlier times go without punishment; 26 And to make clear his righteousness now, so that he might himself be upright, and give righteousness to him who has faith in Jesus.

I chose this since it lays out the general concepts that will be touched on in the next parts. Things to note are that the law does not allow for righteousness and well as the ideas of sin, grace and faith.

Then in Romans 4 there's a few more things:

Quote

3 But what does it say in the holy Writings? And Abraham had faith in God, and it was put to his account as righteousness. ... 6 As David says that there is a blessing on the man to whose account God puts righteousness without works, saying, 7 Happy are those who have forgiveness for their wrongdoing, and whose sins are covered. 8 Happy is the man against whom no sin is recorded by the Lord.

Abraham having faith and faith being noted as righteousness is worth remembering as is verse 8 (the basic idea that things are being "recorded" is actually a noteworthy thing here).

So now I'll just start in on verses in Romans 5 that were in the OP:

Quote

12 For this reason, as through one man sin came into the world, and death because of sin, and so death came to all men, because all have done evil: 13 Because, till the law came, sin was in existence, but sin is not put to the account of anyone when there is no law to be broken. 14 But still death had power from Adam till Moses, even over those who had not done wrong like Adam, who is a picture of him who was to come.

Without any laws any sins that anyone may have actually done weren't recorded (v4:8) but since Adam was warned that death would result if the fruit was eaten then people died as a result of his eating from the tree. He argues that sin always existed but also that by one man sin entered the world. In 3:20 he claims that "through the law comes the knowledge of sin" and the only "law" that could be considered to have existed at this point was the mandate to not eat from the tree of knowledge (though YHWH himself never mentions sin until Cain and Abel). Adam broke that "law" and this is when death comes into the world (as per the story). So prior to this even though Adam may have done things that could have been considered sins since there were no laws against them they weren't recorded as sins against him. The same applies to all those who came after him. Unless something was a law then it wasn't recorded as a sin. Death came to everyone universally since everyone did sin and sin causes death whether or not that sin is recorded. Sin is a silent killer like it or not. Law is what determines if those sins get placed on your permanent record.

Quote

15 But the free giving of God is not like the wrongdoing of man. For if, by the wrongdoing of one man death came to numbers of men, much more did the grace of God, and the free giving by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, come to men. 16 And the free giving has not the same effect as the sin of one: for the effect of one man's sin was punishment by the decision of God, but the free giving had power to give righteousness to wrongdoers in great number. 17 For, if by the wrongdoing of one, death was ruling through the one, much more will those to whom has come the wealth of grace and the giving of righteousness, be ruling in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. 18 So then, as the effect of one act of wrongdoing was that punishment came on all men, even so the effect of one act of righteousness was righteousness of life for all men. 19 Because, as numbers of men became sinners through the wrongdoing of one man, even so will great numbers get righteousness through the keeping of the word of God by one man.

This long section appears to be saying a lot but it's not. It's fairly simple. It says that lots of people died as a result of Adam his actions. But the righteous actions of Jesus will result in everyone now being able to be righteous themselves.

Quote

20 And the law came in addition, to make wrongdoing worse; but where there was much sin, there was much more grace: 21 That, as sin had power in death, so grace might have power through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He points out the law (most likely the law of Moses from 5:14) makes it worse since, as he's said, it's the law that makes sin something that is known and recordable. This is why Paul doesn't care for the law and sees it as a burden. It only helps to highlight everyone's sins and results in them being recorded against you. This could be bad news during judgment obviously. Looking to v4:3 and how faith is also something that is placed into a person's account as righteousness and how this works with grace it is possible to gain eternal life thanks to the prior actions of Jesus. So if you have lots of faith you are basically "banking" into your account righteousness which can be used to gain grace (or favor) to effectively offset the sins that have been recorded (or likewise "banked"). You can use one to wipeout the other. So it's available to all but not everyone will have enough faith, or righteousness, to gain gods favor and get eternal life.

That's basically it. I don't think I skipped anything vital (and I kept it shorter than I thought I would ).

mwc

This post has been edited by mwc: 08 February 2010 - 07:48 AM

[Jabbrwokk]

mwc, on 08 February 2010 - 07:47 AM, said:

So if you have lots of faith you are basically "banking" into your account righteousness which can be used to gain grace (or favor) to effectively offset the sins that have been recorded (or likewise "banked"). You can use one to wipeout the other. So it's available to all but not everyone will have enough faith, or righteousness, to gain gods favor and get eternal life.

That's what everyone thinks Christianity is all about, but the preacher mans always say "No it's about grace!"

Looks like people are reading their bibles correctly after all.

[HereticZero]

wt-hell?!, on 07 February 2010 - 02:41 PM, said:

Near the end of my deconversion, one of the things I had a hard time wrapping my brain around was the idea of original sin. I had been taught according to the bible that we are all sinners, from birth, because of the sin of Adam. Everyone, everywhere at any point in time was born into a nature of sin. We were not asked if we wanted to be a part of this sin nature or given any kind of option. It was just assumed that because we were children of Adam that we inherited his sin and therefore inherited the punishment of sin, death. Adam, to me, seems to be a very powerful man to have infected every single generation after him. Now, when I was a xian, it only seemed that Jesus, the son of God, would be so much more powerful and able to affect so many more people than little ol' Adam. However, the catch was that I had to acknowledge and accept the 'fact' that Jesus died and rose again according to scripture in order to receive the 'free gift' of salvation. Hold up, wait just one minute! I don't remember that being part of the contract that I'm bound to under Adam. I don't ever remember being asked to acknowledge and accept the 'fact' that Adam sinned and it affects me to death.
It seems logical to me, that god's grace and mercy extends to all equally and even more so than Adam's sin because god is simply more powerful. Even Romans 5:12-20 seems to suggest that as well:

Quote

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this set of verses, the word 'many' is thrown around alongside 'all men'. It's a little bit confusing when death came to many and the gift of grace came to many, but later on all men have sinned through one and all men are redeemed through one. Which part is supposed to be believed or understood? This was such a problem for me as a xian. I went through a period where I believed that all would be 'saved' in the end because of this scripture, but I eventually gave up on that belief too. But I'm curious to see what other ex-xians and xians think about this. I had been told by a minister before that in some cases where the word 'all' is used, it only means all of a particular group, not 'all men'. I don't understand why the xian religion makes you acknowledge and accept god's gift but automatically causes you to be cursed without your permission. Can god not act without our permission? Is he really not powerful enough to extend grace to those he loves? Does he not love 'all men' but only loves 'many'?

Read Romans Chapter Two. If you are a gentile, you do not need the law. The law was given only to the Jew. It is blasphemy to preach the law to gentiles. Grace was not for the gentile, grace was for the Jew. Paul's teachings are from Paul's gospel about the person of Jesus. Paul's gospel was not about Jesus' gospel and there is no way to know the full gospel of Jesus. The bible's been rewritten so many times that I do not believe it is a trustworthy source about Jesus' gospel because one has to hunt down individual verses out of context in order to get a glimpse of Jesus' gospel. Paul wrote of his gospel and claims to have been taught to be a Pharisee. Jesus said unless one's righteousness exceeds that of a Pharisee, one cannot enter heaven. I take this to mean Paul's ranting accusations as well. If a gentile does not need the law, then a gentile is also not under original sin and does not need grace for salvation. A gentile is a law unto himself, according to the bible.

[wt-hell?!]

HereticZero, on 08 February 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

Read Romans Chapter Two. If you are a gentile, you do not need the law. The law was given only to the Jew. It is blasphemy to preach the law to gentiles. Grace was not for the gentile, grace was for the Jew. Paul's teachings are from Paul's gospel about the person of Jesus. Paul's gospel was not about Jesus' gospel and there is no way to know the full gospel of Jesus. The bible's been rewritten so many times that I do not believe it is a trustworthy source about Jesus' gospel because one has to hunt down individual verses out of context in order to get a glimpse of Jesus' gospel. Paul wrote of his gospel and claims to have been taught to be a Pharisee. Jesus said unless one's righteousness exceeds that of a Pharisee, one cannot enter heaven. I take this to mean Paul's ranting accusations as well. If a gentile does not need the law, then a gentile is also not under original sin and does not need grace for salvation. A gentile is a law unto himself, according to the bible.

And this is where it got utterly confusing for me. People are saying one thing and others are saying another, it's so frustrating. I don't really care about whether or not people think I am a sinner or maybe made righteous. But for those days where I think I'm wrong about sky-god I need something to remind myself of the absurdities.
It just seems ridiculous that the law was given so that sins could be recorded so that god could be gracious for his glory. Just seems like bible god is so manipulative and conniving and purely does things for his own pleasure/glory/fetish without regards to those he actually created.

[NotBlinded]

If sin is automatic, salvation should be too. It's only fair afterall.

[wt-hell?!]

Notblinded, on 08 February 2010 - 05:45 PM, said:

If sin is automatic, salvation should be too. It's only fair afterall.

My exact thoughts, only said a lot better. My mom would say in a situation like this "who said life was fair?"

[mwc]

wt-hell?!, on 08 February 2010 - 05:16 PM, said:

And this is where it got utterly confusing for me. People are saying one thing and others are saying another, it's so frustrating. I don't really care about whether or not people think I am a sinner or maybe made righteous. But for those days where I think I'm wrong about sky-god I need something to remind myself of the absurdities.
It just seems ridiculous that the law was given so that sins could be recorded so that god could be gracious for his glory. Just seems like bible god is so manipulative and conniving and purely does things for his own pleasure/glory/fetish without regards to those he actually created.

Confusing? Romans 2:

Quote

14 For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves; 15 Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval; 16 In the day when God will be a judge of the secrets of men, as it says in the good news of which I am a preacher, through Jesus Christ.

Everyone has a law they must adhere to. Now it appears that the gentiles don't have the same laws of the Jews but clearly this is what Paul is trying to say in these verses. The gentiles must know something of the law since they do some of the very things written in the law. So whether it's the gentile or the Jewish form it is the thing that is being used against everyone. No one can prevent themselves from going against these laws at all times for their entire life even though they know better.

mwc

[OpheliaGinger]

If God has the power to condemn us all before we are even born, then he should have the power to save us all without us having to beat ourselves up in order to obtain that salvation.