[chefranden]

Taphophilia, on Jun 22 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

If they know that we are not ignorant of Christianity, why oh why are they explaining the most simplistic terms to us?

Interpretation of the blatant Christianese:

My Christian beliefs are better than anyone and everyone else. No one has the truth but me and people who believe exactly like me, not even and especially other Christians. Because you obviously didn't believe like me, you fell away, but I'm here to show you how wrong all other Christians are, particularly, the kind of Christianity you once believed in. My beliefs are the only form of Christianity that count! You are so fortunate that the "Holy Spirit" has brought me to this place. Now, just jump on my boat and I'll row you downstream. Sometimes, I even have a direct pipeline to god.

Yes, we've been blessed by the presence of another TrueChristian™. God must love us because he sends us so many TrueChristians™. Perhaps we should give God a break and listen to this one. :lmao:

[Neon Genesis]

nenlow77, on Jun 22 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

. First I will start with I do not agree with much of the Christian religion. So many call themselves Christians and have gone to church but really never tasted of the Holy Spirit. Like you Kuroikaze many have gotten into the religion and really tried to learn about it and wanted more from what they were taught but in the end were left stranded with nothing. I have countless of friends who said they were Christians dove into the worship of God but in the end were pushed away by my faith.

So, basically, you're saying that you're another one of those "true" Christians and you think you're better than everyone else because you say so? And this makes you any different from 99% of all other Christians because why?

Quote

Being a Christian is not going to church (which when a body of believers are together it is church), or doing certain things. A Christian is someone who has realized that they have fallen short of Him and do need God for salvation.

Does this mean that the apostles of Jesus weren't "real" Christians because they went to church? I see, you must be one of those Christians who only ever reads the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but then ignores the rest of the bible because it would be too inconvenient for you.

Quote

Being a Christian is following God and just having a personal relationship with Him and understanding the need you have for Him.

That's nice. So, why doesn't God prove his existence to us and answer people's prayers? It's kind of hard to have a relationship with someone that's there's no evidence for existing.

Quote

We will be ridiculed unfairly, many who hear the word of the Lord will harden their hearts and turn away.

Funny how I see you're going around ridiculing other Christians who don't agree with you for not being "real" Christians. Don't you love hypocrisy?

Quote

I pray that none of you are hardening your hearts but at least are open to what I have to say in this thread. I pray that the Lord will guide me to be able to speak to those who read what I post and that you will begin to see the God I see and begin to feel His peace and love just by the words that He speaks through me.

Does this mean that if your prayers aren't answered and we don't become Christians after hearing what you say that God does not exist?

Quote

I am not ignorant that you who read this have not already been in the religion of Christianity but I do not know if you have tasted the God I have it is not about religion but a relationship and this is why I have found such joy in my life even when I am in trials!

Hey, does this mean that if Christianity isn't a religion but a relationship that Christianity shouldn't be protected under the First Amendment?

This post has been edited by Neon Genesis: 22 June 2008 - 03:17 PM

[chefranden]

Neon Genesis, on Jun 22 2008, 03:16 PM, said:

Hey, does this mean that if Christianity isn't a religion but a relationship that Christianity shouldn't be protected under the First Amendment?

I think that relationship is protected under the 4th amendment, but only if you are not gay. If you are a guy in love with Jesus, that might be a little gay.

[Taphophilia]

That's very interesting, switching Jesus Love to a forth amendment right, rather than a first amendment right. Though, don't you think that Jesus should than be entitled to a restraining order?

[The-Doctor]

nenlow77, on Jun 22 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

Entire post snipped because I lack energy....

:twitch:

Does anyone else get the feeling we aren't talking to a human but some kind of church pamphlet?



(No offense Nenlow, maybe this is just the kind of religious language you use to communicate about these things, but cripes I count how many times I've heard these meaningless phrases and Christian bywords.)

[chefranden]

nenlow77, on Jun 22 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

1. The way the church is setup right now is not how God intended...

2. Being a Christian is not going to church (which when a body of believers are together it is church), or doing certain things.

3. Being a Christian is following God and just having a personal relationship with Him and understanding the need you have for Him.

4.I pray that none of you are hardening your hearts but at least are open to what I have to say in this thread.

5...but I do not know if you have tasted the God I have...

1. How do you know this? And who's fault is it? (john17)

2. Hebrews 10:23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

3. Can you show from scripture that you are to have a personal relationship with Jesus, and that this relationship supersedes the Church?

4. You might be praying against God's will for he could have chosen us to be objects of wrath: Romans 9:22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? Therefore you should rejoice that we have been chosen to make the riches of his glory known to you.

5. Ya, I tasted him. Sweet at first, but like an old stick of gum eventually he needs to be spat out.

[centauri]

nenlow77, on Jun 22 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

...First off I never said I was more qualified than any of you but I would like to understand and see what turns you away from my faith from my God.

I think you've got part of the answer right now.
It's your God, or more accurately your perception of God, that others don't accept.
You haven't established that it exists because it's in your head.

Quote

I know I am not speaking to people who are ignorant of the religion Christianity. First I will start with I do not agree with much of the Christian religion. So many call themselves Christians and have gone to church but really never tasted of the Holy Spirit.

This qualifier just doesn't mean much to me.
There is no such thing as a "true" Christian, so there is little point in trying to define one.
It's all relative.
Every single Christian I've encountered feels they are the genuine article.

Quote

I want you to know I serve God with all my heart and yes do fail daily but know His love keeps me going daily.

I haven't seen a speck of evidence for that.
Your definition of God is relative, not absolute.

Quote

The way the church is setup right now is not how God intended I do not like going.

You need to understand that an assertion like this is meaningless to people that don't have much interest in your version of God.
You're trying to establish which flavor of ice cream is the one true ice cream.
It may be interesting to discuss, but it cannot ever lead to an absolute conclusion, at least not the kind you seem to want.

Quote

Jesus came to this earth to rid of us the lifestyle of the pharisees.

Jesus who?
Can you establish that Jesus of Nazareth was actually everything various cult writers claimed?

Quote

A Christian is someone who has realized that they have fallen short of Him and do need God for salvation.

They specifically need "JESUS" for salvation.
Nothing else will do.
They also need to perform a laundry list of items to ensure that salvation.

Quote

It does take a humbling of oneself and many do not think they need help from a "god", Jesus came and sacrificed His life so we can have a direct relationship with our Father.

According to the Hebrew deity, you don't need an invalid, pagan human sacrifice to have a relationship with him.
Why do you ignore what was taught in the "Word" long before Christianity came along?

Quote

When I continue to follow Him then I will begin to learn more about who He is and what He wants for me.

You haven't demonstrated that you do follow him.
So far, all you've done is assert.

Quote

The Bible speaks of truth and God has already foretold what there is to come for Christians.

But it seems that you only believe parts of the Bible that tickle your fancy.

Quote

... many who hear the word of the Lord will harden their hearts and turn away.

This is quite ironic.
You mean like Christians that have hardened their hearts, rejected God's law, and chased after a pagan human sacrifice?

I've snipped the rest of your comments because they have no meaningful basis until you've addressed to questions presented to you.

[par4dcourse]

To sum up the OP's contributions thus far, I would quote my hero Walter, as voiced by Jeff Dunham: "DUMBASS".

[Evolution_beyond]

nenlow77, on Jun 21 2008, 10:37 PM, said:

I am starting this thread to answer questions you may have on Christianity and also to have you answer these questions, Why are you against a one true God and what turns you the most away from Christianity and why?

I am not against a One True God, if one exists. But if there were a One True God then I would expect him to bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever with what faulty human religions say about him. He/She/It would probably be quite beyond human understanding. Though he/she/it may be able to interact with people and appear to them, his/her/its visions would be mind-blowing and numinous. A being that would be the cause of the entire universe and of all space and time would be impossible to capture within the puny religious theorising of a few finite human beings living on one planet amongst billions of stars that exist within one galaxy amongst billions of galaxies.

So I would still be dubious about your christian religion - and would look to nature and the universe to find God.

However, upon studying nature and the universe I have come to the conclusion that what we have is an awe-inspiring process that nevertheless is totally without conscious planning or design and seems to follow the raw logic of trial-and-error and what happens to work is what survives. That's cool - it's still amazing that it gave rise to human consciousness. Perfectly explicable but totally amazing.

I'd imagine everything I just said went completely over your head though.

What turns me away from christianity?

The appeal to ignorance, the insult to my intelligence, the mistrust of reason that many christians adopt, this curious idea that somehow it is useful to accept a belief without questioning it even though unquestioning belief is quite obviously inferior to a truth that you arrived at in your own time and through your own growing and reasoning (christians would do well to ponder on this principle - that unless you learn a truth for yourself then you have not learnt it at all - it does no good just to speak of a truth)

the counter-productive methods that christians use to try and spread their faith (again, unless people learn it for themselves they have not learnt it at all - but somehow christianity doesn't want genuine conversion - it wants surface conformity without any depth)

the negative and quite frankly intolerant attitude that christianity often has towards sexual expression in all its forms, the rights of those who happen to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex to not be harrassed and bullied by others, and the rights of women to be independent and strong and free from oppression

and the sheer illogical nature of the central doctrine that God somehow cannot let himself change the rules and forgive some people without incarnating as a human being and offering his own life as a sacrifice (to himself presumably!). It's batshit crazy. I wonder how anyone ever manages to believe it!

Any questions I might have will be apparent from the list of things that turn me away from christianity. Why would God need to sacrifice himself to himself - why not simply forgive? Why the need for all that extra hoo-ha? And why, if God is so wise and perfect, didn't he set it up that way from the beginning? How can God change his mind?

[WarrantedPVC]

nenlow77, on Jun 21 2008, 10:37 PM, said:

I am starting this thread to answer questions you may have on Christianity and also to have you answer these questions, Why are you against a one true God and what turns you the most away from Christianity and why?

Hi nenlow,

It's difficult to explain such a complex issue in a few words - perhaps you should read some of the deconversion stories, that might shed some more light on where most of us come from. But even those are in most cases insufficient to give a complete picture...

Personally, I am not against God, He is against me. Or he doesn't exist.

What turned me away from Christianity is that I lost the feeling of certainty that you still have that your God loves you and cares about you. No matter how much I begged him for several months, he didn't make a move to help me get it back.

Anything could have happened and I would have remained a devout believer - I could have lost everything in my life, loved ones, place to live, health, whatever... I wouldn't have departed. Just not that. To make someone feel loved and lure them into believing they have a relationship with you, and then reject them like that is the most cruel thing that can be done. If God exists, he hit me hardest where he knew I couldn't stand. If he doesn't exist, it makes a lot more sense.

God didn't make intellectual sense, I could no more feel him, and I was shocked and embarrassed by my Christian friends' reactions to the whole thing. There was no honest reason to call myself a "Christian" any more.

I didn't want it to happen. I loved God with all my heart and I was ready to give him whatever he wanted. Apparently he didn't want anything apart from leaving me wounded. I begged and cried through countless nights and fasted and prayed and asked for forgiveness of whatever grave sin I must have committed that made him hate me. He didn't reply. I wasn't waiting for a huge miracle or a sign or whatever. A "small still voice" or "blessed assurance" in my heart would have been enough. I fought as hard as I could and I was in the worst spiritual pain for months. It was the worst experience of my life and left me so traumatized that it still strongly affects me 3 years later. If God saw it then he watched with cruel indifference. If he saw it then he knew there was no way I could have made it through without his help, yet he ignored me. If he isn't there then, again, it makes a lot more sense.

You say your God's love "keeps you going daily". I'm very happy for you and hope you never experence what I did. But I can't help wondering: why did your God choose to love you but not me?

PVC

[R. S. Martin]

HanSolo, on Jun 21 2008, 11:24 PM, said:

Chef,

What do you have against the one and true God, the Cute Bunny?

And secondly, what turns you away from Bunnyism and why?

We all know, deep down in our hearts, that the Cute Bunny is real and loves us all. So I can't understand why you hate her so much!

HanSolo, what shall I do? Cute Bunny hates me! :HappyCry:

She is such a cute grey bunny with a beautiful white fluffy tail. Everytime I get close to the window to see Her Royal Highness, She hops away into the hedge. I am sure I did something so horrible that no amount of fasting from Eggs and Alfalfa Sprouts can ever atone.

Are you her High Priest? If you can tell me how to make peace with Her Royal Highness so She will let me touch her Beautiful Tail with my forehead and give her an Alfalfa Offering of Atonement, I will be forever indebted to you.

Distressed Devotee,
Ruby

[R. S. Martin]

nenlow77, on Jun 22 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

I want you to know I serve God with all my heart and yes do fail daily

I dunno but it sounds to me like you're in the wrong field. If you give it all your heart (put all your effort into your service to God) on a daily basis--and still fail--it seems you're doing something very wrong.

That is why I'm not a Christian. It's the wrong field for me. I gave it an honest try and it wasn't right for me. I refuse to give any more of my life energy to something that is so wrong for me--something I'm bound to fail at on a daily basis.

I'm a far better person on every level--in fact I had the New Birth--at the very moment that I turned my back on all I was taught to hold sacred. Voluntarily binding oneself with the bondage of slavery to an invisible imperceptible Master is sacrilege. Yes, you heard right. Life is sacred. You get only one--this life here on this planet that you're living right now. If you waste it in the hopes of getting a better one in some far-off fantasy land you will have wasted your one and only chance at life.

Not that you will ever know it because you'll be dead. But what a waste!

[nenlow77]

I want to say guys thank you for your posts again and say that I did not realize how much you really strived for the Lord and how much you do know about Him, maybe I was a little ignorant on that and I am sorry. Now to the issues that many of you presented it will be hard to get to everyone right off hand.

A common point presented is that I am an emotionalist and that I live by my emotions with the Lord. This is false and I believe you are judging me by why I am following the Lord. Just so you guys know I do not feel like God is always there I trust that He is. As of right now I have been in an extremely hard part in my life where I feel as if God is nowhere to be seen, but like James says in chapter 1 "with the testing of faith builds perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete not lacking in anything." I believe that God knows better than I and I trust that for whatever trials are in my life He is there to comfort me He says v. 12 "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him." I know God will never leave or forsake me and I also know that He will be my comfort. The Bible is a lamp unto my feet and it guides me especially when it is dark and I cannot see. My walk with the Lord has not been easy and I have definitely struggled to believe that He is still there but I keep having faith through the trials through every tear and continuing to battle for I know that God is good. For anything that is good is of the Lord.

Which now I will address another issue spoken of and that is Who is the one true God? I agree with Evolution_beyond when he says

Quote

He/She/It would probably be quite beyond human understanding. Though he/she/it may be able to interact with people and appear to them, his/her/its visions would be mind-blowing and numinous.

God is far beyond my understanding, I know only very little of Him and His characteristics and long to learn more about Him daily. I do know this like I said earlier for anything that is good there is God. Also the Bible says God is love and it also tells us what love is 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 4 love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self seeking. It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails." I know God sent Jesus to heal the sick, give sight to the blind, heal those who are lame, give voice to the mute, and one of the biggest reasons He came was to heal the brokenhearted.

I would like to say I do not think I am better than anyone else and I do not know all things about the Lord and about Christianity and about how I should follow Him. I try not to ridicule other Christians for their beliefs but yes I am human and have been caught in being hypocritical and this is because I am not perfect. I want to show love but am I always patient and kind and slow to anger no I am not and this is why I need the blood of Christ because I cannot reach heaven with the best of me, they are like dirty rags to His feet." Only by the perfect sacrifice was there an opening that God could have a direct relationship with me as someone who sins. The reason why this is necesarry is because God is good and cannot be around sin, which as Jesus died the Holy Spirit came into those who accepted Him. Through the Holy Spirit God sees His perfect son's atonement and can have a direct relationship with me.

I believe in the whole Bible whether it is inconvenient for me or not love takes sacrifice so if I love my God I will follow what He says no matter if it is hard for me or not. Love is not a feeling based on what you want to do right now it is rock hard actions in the midst of the hardest moments. also Jesus came to earth for all to be saved not just some, and I believe what Romans 9 is speaking about is that those who do not want anything to do with Him some may be shown His wrath.

Something a lot of nonchristians have asked me is that if God is so good then why does He send people to Hell? Well let me say this that God is so good that instead of starting time making us all love Him, He gave us free will to choose Him or not. Those that choose Him, He allows in His grace to live with Him for eternity (Heaven). Those that want nothing to do with God get just that why would He force something on you that you do not want, you have free will to do as you wish so if you want nothing to do with Him you will be sent to a place where there is nothing of Him (Hell). This will be a place with no love (God is love), no life, nothing good (God is good), completely desolate where nothing living can survive! This is not a fear tactic it is a truth tactic.

This part is for PVC and others like this person

Quote

Hi nenlow,

It's difficult to explain such a complex issue in a few words - perhaps you should read some of the deconversion stories, that might shed some more light on where most of us come from. But even those are in most cases insufficient to give a complete picture...

Personally, I am not against God, He is against me. Or he doesn't exist.

What turned me away from Christianity is that I lost the feeling of certainty that you still have that your God loves you and cares about you. No matter how much I begged him for several months, he didn't make a move to help me get it back.

Anything could have happened and I would have remained a devout believer - I could have lost everything in my life, loved ones, place to live, health, whatever... I wouldn't have departed. Just not that. To make someone feel loved and lure them into believing they have a relationship with you, and then reject them like that is the most cruel thing that can be done. If God exists, he hit me hardest where he knew I couldn't stand. If he doesn't exist, it makes a lot more sense.

God didn't make intellectual sense, I could no more feel him, and I was shocked and embarrassed by my Christian friends' reactions to the whole thing. There was no honest reason to call myself a "Christian" any more.

I didn't want it to happen. I loved God with all my heart and I was ready to give him whatever he wanted. Apparently he didn't want anything apart from leaving me wounded. I begged and cried through countless nights and fasted and prayed and asked for forgiveness of whatever grave sin I must have committed that made him hate me. He didn't reply. I wasn't waiting for a huge miracle or a sign or whatever. A "small still voice" or "blessed assurance" in my heart would have been enough. I fought as hard as I could and I was in the worst spiritual pain for months. It was the worst experience of my life and left me so traumatized that it still strongly affects me 3 years later. If God saw it then he watched with cruel indifference. If he saw it then he knew there was no way I could have made it through without his help, yet he ignored me. If he isn't there then, again, it makes a lot more sense.

You say your God's love "keeps you going daily". I'm very happy for you and hope you never experence what I did. But I can't help wondering: why did your God choose to love you but not me?

PVC

I want to say it breaks my heart to hear what you are saying to hear that these trials were so extremely hard for you. I will say that God is not against you He loves you so much. I do not know why He was not made known to you but He knows your heart better than I. All I know is sometimes testing like this may weave out those who truly desire Him compared to those who are following Him by emotions. I am not saying you were I am just speaking hypothetically. God is there and will always be there for you, yes sometimes the Bible even says He will silence himself to us. I cannot say why He does it to you right now or why for me I am in a state like that also but I pray right now that God's presence will be felt by you and that you will be given a newness of life in Him, and whether by feeling or in a dream He will be made known to you once again! My heart goes out to you PVC and you said you loved God with all your heart and were willing to give up your life for Him and would follow Him even if your whole family was to die, but maybe he did not put that kind of trial in your life but maybe the trials He had for you was that He would be silent hoping you would persevere in faith and continue to love Him. If you truly love Him with all your heart then I believe He is there with you now and even just by reading this you can feel His presence like an arm around you, He is your comfort please do not lose sight of Him. God is calling you back to Him He loves you and wants you there, I will say for some it is so much harder to see His love than it is for others and my heart burdens for you! I believe if you truly were a Christian then your heart is still there willing to do the Lord's will and I believe He has great things planned for you in your life! Read His word converse with Him in prayer like you would if you were talking to your best friend I know you still hunger for Him do not let that hunger die find His peace continue to search His love. I know this has been 3 long years of heartache and God wants to heal you, I pray for healing complete healing in you Amen!

I will get back to more of your posts later! Keep responding it is challenging my faith I do not want to be a Christian who believes because He does but I want to question all aspects of my faith all aspects of the Lord and draw closer to Him! Thanks you guys!

[Taphophilia]

nenlow,

After reading that post, I have to ask: Are you trying to convince us, or trying to convince yourself?

You just seem like a lost puppy that life has kicked around too much.

[Kuroikaze]

I'm going to try to respond to a few things here.

nenlow77, on Jun 22 2008, 07:49 PM, said:

A common point presented is that I am an emotionalist and that I live by my emotions with the Lord. This is false and I believe you are judging me by why I am following the Lord. Just so you guys know I do not feel like God is always there I trust that He is. As of right now I have been in an extremely hard part in my life where I feel as if God is nowhere to be seen, but like James says in chapter 1 "with the testing of faith builds perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete not lacking in anything." I believe that God knows better than I and I trust that for whatever trials are in my life He is there to comfort me He says v. 12 "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him." I know God will never leave or forsake me and I also know that He will be my comfort. The Bible is a lamp unto my feet and it guides me especially when it is dark and I cannot see. My walk with the Lord has not been easy and I have definitely struggled to believe that He is still there but I keep having faith through the trials through every tear and continuing to battle for I know that God is good. For anything that is good is of the Lord.

I hear you saying that you are not being led by emotions, but the rest of your statements make it clear you are, at least, not making your choices based upon logic or observable evidence. You talk of trust, now I can't speak for you, but I don't trust everyone, trust is earned, I wouldn't trust my daughter to be alone with a convicted rapist, because the person she is with has shown himself to be untrustworthy.

What hard evidence do you have that god is trustworthy, or even that he exists. Telling me to have trust in god is like suggesting I trust the easter bunny, or santa clause, I can neither trust or distrust them because they aren't real. You must first establish that god exists before we can discuss if he is trust worthy or not. So I'll ask again, what evidence do you have that he exists?

Quote

Something a lot of nonchristians have asked me is that if God is so good then why does He send people to Hell? Well let me say this that God is so good that instead of starting time making us all love Him, He gave us free will to choose Him or not. Those that choose Him, He allows in His grace to live with Him for eternity (Heaven). Those that want nothing to do with God get just that why would He force something on you that you do not want, you have free will to do as you wish so if you want nothing to do with Him you will be sent to a place where there is nothing of Him (Hell). This will be a place with no love (God is love), no life, nothing good (God is good), completely desolate where nothing living can survive! This is not a fear tactic it is a truth tactic.

It isn't really free will, I don't believe in him because of a lack of evidence, if god refuses to provide said evidence then he is not giving me free will at all, because my ignorance takes away my right to choose. If I knew god was real, I could make a free choice to follow him or not, but I cannot make any choice at all so long as there is no evidence of his existence.

Quote

I want to say it breaks my heart to hear what you are saying to hear that these trials were so extremely hard for you. I will say that God is not against you He loves you so much. I do not know why He was not made known to you but He knows your heart better than I. All I know is sometimes testing like this may weave out those who truly desire Him compared to those who are following Him by emotions. I am not saying you were I am just speaking hypothetically. God is there and will always be there for you, yes sometimes the Bible even says He will silence himself to us. I cannot say why He does it to you right now or why for me I am in a state like that also but I pray right now that God's presence will be felt by you and that you will be given a newness of life in Him, and whether by feeling or in a dream He will be made known to you once again! My heart goes out to you PVC and you said you loved God with all your heart and were willing to give up your life for Him and would follow Him even if your whole family was to die, but maybe he did not put that kind of trial in your life but maybe the trials He had for you was that He would be silent hoping you would persevere in faith and continue to love Him. If you truly love Him with all your heart then I believe He is there with you now and even just by reading this you can feel His presence like an arm around you, He is your comfort please do not lose sight of Him. God is calling you back to Him He loves you and wants you there, I will say for some it is so much harder to see His love than it is for others and my heart burdens for you! I believe if you truly were a Christian then your heart is still there willing to do the Lord's will and I believe He has great things planned for you in your life! Read His word converse with Him in prayer like you would if you were talking to your best friend I know you still hunger for Him do not let that hunger die find His peace continue to search His love. I know this has been 3 long years of heartache and God wants to heal you, I pray for healing complete healing in you Amen!

*sigh* we don't need your pity, while most of us were, to some extent, depressed when we realized the belief system we had placed our hopes and dreams upon for years was false, we got over it. I am a much happier person now than I was as a believer. I am at peace with myself.

I don't want to sound snippy, but your pity is slightly offensive, and your sermonizing is not going over well.
I spent years listening to lines like "believe He has great things planned for you in your life!" or "find His peace continue to search His love." or this gem "I know this has been 3 long years of heartache and God wants to heal you, I pray for healing complete healing in you"

I can't speak for PVC, but listening to this kind of talk makes me want to vomit. Its all emotionalist nonsense, devoid of real content, meant to persuade people who are weak minded or going through a rough spot in their life. You are dealing in the language of snake oil salesmen as far as I'm concerned. Promising quick easy fixes to problems, and then telling people to "just have faith" when the fake cure doesn't work right away

If god wanted to "heal me" he should have done it five years ago when I was emotionally weak and drained from my ordeal with Christianity, these days I've moved on with my life and I'm quite happy in my godless existence. I just got offered a job teaching English to children in Japan and I'm moving there in August. I did that, through hard work and perseverance, no supernatural being ever handed me anything I have.

I really am trying to be patient here, so I am asking you nicely one more time. Please quit sermonizing and quoting cute bumper sticker theology at us, present your evidence of the Christian god's existence or admit you have none and you have nothing but your opinion and an irrational trust in the unseen, and, as far as I can tell, inactive.

You have wrote much, but so far you have said little of value or interest, please try answering our questions instead of pitying us, as the latter is just going to piss us off eventually.

This post has been edited by Kuroikaze: 23 June 2008 - 12:14 AM

[Ouroboros]

Taphophilia, on Jun 22 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

I just have to add:

Doesn't the "tasting of the Holy Spirit" sound like some kind of weird sexual perversion? What exactly do they do in their church?

It's on the same level as "he touched me."

My answer to that is, "Well, then sue him!"

[Ouroboros]

R. S. Martin, on Jun 22 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Are you her High Priest? If you can tell me how to make peace with Her Royal Highness so She will let me touch her Beautiful Tail with my forehead and give her an Alfalfa Offering of Atonement, I will be forever indebted to you.

I think (IIRC) I was assigned the Archbishop title. But business has been slow, and not much money in the collection box. Only the old traditionalists stay in church, and I heard about some new bunnamentalists starting a cult called Rabbitism. But we all know it's just Bunnyism in a new fur.

It's easy to become a Bunnyist and receive her forgiveness, just repeat, "I love the Cute Bunny," three times, and that's it. Easy as a pea. Oh, and we believe in love, faith and hop, not love, faith and hope, just a FYI.

[Evolution_beyond]

nenlow77, on Jun 23 2008, 02:49 AM, said:

Something a lot of nonchristians have asked me is that if God is so good then why does He send people to Hell? Well let me say this that God is so good that instead of starting time making us all love Him, He gave us free will to choose Him or not. Those that choose Him, He allows in His grace to live with Him for eternity (Heaven). Those that want nothing to do with God get just that why would He force something on you that you do not want, you have free will to do as you wish so if you want nothing to do with Him you will be sent to a place where there is nothing of Him (Hell). This will be a place with no love (God is love), no life, nothing good (God is good), completely desolate where nothing living can survive! This is not a fear tactic it is a truth tactic.

How can there be a place where there is nothing of God? I thought God was everywhere. I thought God created all things. How can there be a place that has nothing of God? How can it be possible to be cast away from God's presence?

This is why I began to suspect that even hell was not permanent and God could reach a soul there.

Oh, which reminds me of another problem I had with the concept. If God is always trying to reach the lost (like in the parable of the lost sheep) and is always willing to forgive (like in the parable of the prodigal son) then why would he suddenly change his attitude when a person dies?

I can understand that a person's free will choice to reject God could result in God honouring that choice and allowing them to exist without him (although by the definition of God as the Creator of all things and as Omnipresent I wonder whether such a thing would even be possible). But surely each and every person who experienced lack of love, lack of life, lack of goodness would automatically long and yearn and ache for goodness and love and life. And wouldn't it be clear in death that God is the source of those things - wouldn't we see him face to face so that there is no more confusion? Isn't this longing for love and life and goodness a type of repentance? Why does God not listen to the repentance of those in hell?

This is why I came to believe that there was no such thing as hell - and God forgives everyone without condition.

[.god]

nenlow77, on Jun 22 2008, 06:49 PM, said:

I believe if you truly were a Christian then your heart is still there willing to do the Lord's will and I believe He has great things planned for you in your life! Read His word converse with Him in prayer like you would if you were talking to your best friend I know you still hunger for Him do not let that hunger die find His peace continue to search His love. I know this has been 3 long years of heartache and God wants to heal you, I pray for healing complete healing in you Amen!

Holy fuck, I just read that, but sorry, that just makes me so sick. Ugh, I had to wash the bile out of my mouth...

How can you go around parroting such crap in such a simplistic and uncaring manner to PVC? DO you even KNOW what her heartache or suffering was?? Do you even care? Do you even know if PVC is male or female (I had to look up the profile)? You never ask, yet you think you can cure her of her sorrows. I have no idea what she went thru for 3 years, I don't hang out often enough around here to know, but her pain and heartbreak was palatable in her post.

And all you can do is claim to know her pain, know how it must have been. Why, with your immeasurable talent you can even read god's mind! You know with a certainty that god wants to heal PVC - if he did, why the hell would he need you to pray for her healing anyway? you'd be as completely ineffectual as if you didn't bother. Are you going to follow up to find out if your prayers were answered and if she received a miracle tomorrow? in 2 weeks? 2 years? 20 years? Will you still even remember?

"I believe if you truly were a Christian.." - wow, I'm freaking insulted for PVC. First you claim you were in error and ignorant of what people here had experienced.. then you imply she never really was truly a Christian (like you, the new resident "True Christian'). Are we dripping with patronizing venom yet?

Wow, you should really set up a fortune telling business. You believe god has great things planned for her life. Ok, go pick up the local horoscope and read a few.. tell me how many state "There are great things planned for your life"

You know PVC like the back of your hand eh. You KNOW she hungers for him...

Can you please read my mind? pretty please? Cause then I won't have to type out what I'm thinking.. which is: god, shit man, have a fucking heart!

This post has been edited by .god: 23 June 2008 - 02:21 AM

[WarrantedPVC]

Hi nenlow, and everyone else,

I am not offended by what you (nenlow) say because, to be honest, I believed all that for all the time I still called myself a Christian in all the doubts, that's why I carried on for so long without deconverting straight away. So I can understand why you say that, and it's fine.

However, I'd like to say that I think I've done "my part" in this. I might not have held on for enough months or years but I figured the "law of diminishing returns" applies here as well. If God didn't hear/see then or didn't care for so long then I don't understand why he would magically start hearing/seeing/caring now. It would have taken him less than a thought to "heal" me, if he didn't do it then then what reason do I have to believe he'd do it now? I was physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted, my sanity was at stake, and God should have known and appreciated that. The stuff I did to myself in despair could have had me end up in a mental asylum, if anyone had found out. Fortunately they didn't. Putting an end to it was the only reasonable option for me, like it has been for so many of us. It was a very difficult choice but giving up my dreams, erasing 15 years of what I thought was active "spiritual development", and having to re-think my entire worldview from scratch like a 2-yr-old trying to tell wrong from right was still a relief compared to how I felt.

I think I'm fine now. I'm not saying "I'm fine" as in, you know, it's done, over, solved 100%, but "I'm fine" in that I'm much more stable emotionally, the world makes a lot more sense, and I am slowly getting my life together again. I am overall happy with who I am now. I still have some questions and problems, like everyone, but they're on a managable scale, a small part of my worldview, not overwhelming, and I'm working on them. The crisis part has passed, it has made me stronger, and while I am still "work in progress", I have sorted out most of what I believe about the world.

Faith is not a conscious choice, despite what many people say. I know this from first-hand experience. I cannot "choose" to believe in God just like I cannot "choose" to believe an apple is a strawberry. I can look at it and try as hard as I want to force my eyes to see somethig else, I can even try to redefine the terminology if I'm dishonest, but an apple does not look like a strawberry and the world does not look like a God who actually cares exists. This is a sad thing because the world would be a much prettier place if a caring God existed. However, wishing something to be true does not make it true.

I am "open" to any God but please understand that I'm not ready to do any more trying to force faith on myself, or actively keeping any kind of hunger alive, etc. I don't hate God, in fact I don't think I ever loved anyone as much as I loved Jesus, but I am very disappointed, as any normal person would be in my place. If God wants me to have faith then he should give me faith. If he's there then I'm happy to have him come into my brain and change my thinking, or whatever he wants. It's not like I could stop him anyway. I've had that attitude all along. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be there and I'm sorry to say but I don't feel the "arm" of presence you are talking about, no matter how hard I try.

Also, Christians keep telling me to go to this church or that church or read this book or that book, or pray more or read the Bible more etc. I usually tell them that while I'm very interested in the topic and I'm by no means hostile to discussion, in my current state of mind the chances of me reconverting as a result of any more thinking/talking/debating/asking questions/reading/begging God are, at best, remote, so I don't see the point in grabbing every opportunity to do those things. For how many days after a loved one's death should a person keep going to their door checking if he will come home that day...?

PVC