[RevOxley_501]

Hello,

nice site you guys have running here, I found it through Facebook---I hope I can use this as a place to be comforted when I need it, because this process has been mentally and emotionally challenging, as well as a place to perhaps sharpen my teeth when it comes to debate or de-evangelism. (not sure how that is viewed but i will explain as we go) Keep in mind it might take me all day to write this little into, as it is busy as hell @ work today, so if my thoughts seem somewhat disjointed its because I'm typing in between incoherent phone calls with babbling morons.---my apologies for that.

Short informational intro:

I am 22 years old, male, and from the heartland of the Bible belt (yippee!)---Georgia, small town about an hour and a half below Macon, 3 hours South of Atlanta. I have held membership at many churches since I was very young, probably 6 or so, when I was "saved" in a Pentecostal Church of God church.---I "fell away" or backslid-what have you, for a few years until i was about 12 years old, i found a little Southern Baptist church and got involved, and starting studying the Bible alot. I was definitely the most well read of the youth at the time, and very quickly surpassed the pastor as far as biblical understanding (I'm not bragging, he was a nice guy, but not well educated as far as that goes)



The longer stuff:

after a couple of years at the little Southern Baptist church the deaconship decided that the pastor was not right for the church, mostly because he had become a bit of a pentecostal Word of Faith-er (if your not familiar with this just check out Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar---indeed the worst of the worst)....I loved my humble pastor and followed him into a new church...there from day one we built a church in an old DEFACS building called Holy Ground Outreach. I assisted the music director, helped alot with the youth group and led most of the youth group sessions, I also assisted in baptisms and was one of the "catchers" when someone was "slain in the spirit" (a pentecostal term...think falling down due to being overwhelmed by the "holy ghost") . At 16 I was generally at the alter laying hands on people whilst they fell out...in other words i was "anointed". I was ordained at 15. My ministry was separate from my church...it dealt with the occult in large, as well as apologetics against Atheism, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...I studied tons of "cults" and alternative religions in order to bring people into the fold. In the years between 12 and 19 (roughly) i probably led around 500 people to "salvation through christ"---I was very outspoken in school (public school) and enjoyed debating with my teachers (even though in south GA not many opinions stray from the norm). I was actually the radical all those years, instead of hating homosexuals and such, i believed in loving them, even though i thought of the act as not necessarily good...its sad that i was the most open minded religious person i knew, because i still believe i was a bit of a zealot. As it stands, I hate who I was, when I see people whom are the way I was, I feel a disdain for them.

I was an exorcist primarily...this is a long and very hard to explain story, because I dont have the answers anymore.


Straws, back breakage, and such:

I always remember seeing biblical passages with "difficulties". At one point i was sure that the Bible in its original languages was certainly Inerrant, but no English translation could suffice...i used a Strong's Concordance a lot to help justify that, occasionally if failed miserably. I was also a big fan of the Finnis J. Dake Bible/Commentary...I still think it has some fairly strange and progressive views. Anywhoo---i think it was the ever present question of Hell that actually broke my theological back...how could a loving God create mankind with such flaws as to require hell as a recompense for those flaws, provide only one way out of that, and then provide absolutely no evidence to help us believe it. Billions of people are in hell with this type of theology...so i sorta kinda, for a very short time, embraced a universal approach to god, god will save us all IF indeed he is loving. I think that was finally overcome by the thought that if god were so great and powerful then he would have certainly provided a means to the conclusion that he is great and powerful, god couldnt even create a book that was perfect much less prove himself to us.

I was out of the church for a good 2 years before i came to this conclusion, i left the Holy Ground Outreach church due to problems i saw in the Word of Faith, name it claim it doctrine---i saw it as selfish and so i left and never really could find a church i was comfortable with. I think that made this process somewhat less difficult...i didn't have to be met with challenges from my once prevalent church family or risk being shunned because i was falling to the wayside like this. So that much i can say was probably easier....however this whole process...of leaving and denouncing the thing that defines your life...has been incredibly difficult. I have spent many nights crying out to a god that i can now say simply isn't there, looking for answers that never came.The hardest thing was admitting that all of my "holy spirit" moments in life, and the anointing i thought i had, were simply emotional controls that i had over myself and others. I spent 6 years as an exorcist, and now i believe the conclusion is that emotion is the main factor in this as well.


The hardest things:

The hardest moments of this process that i can remember:

1: a friend of mine was going through a lot of pain and had alot of spiritual questions, he knew that i was a minister and generally was able to answer these questions at one point...i had to tell him that i didnt know any more, that i was out of answers and i didnt understand all this crap anymore...that was hard to admit...he turned out ok...but it was difficult to have to say , i dont know, when i always had some sort of answer before.

2: talking to my ex-pastor about this...and him bringing up really bad analogies for why christ was real (ie: he was the only man to ever split time in two...BC and AD...yes stupid i know). I just didnt have the heart to explain all this to him...to break his whole world down like mine had been broken.

3:i had to tell a few of the people i had brought into the fold about all this...it hurt them alot and it hurt me to see them hurt so badly by it.

4: that moment...where it just all falls apart, i guess this probably happens with all of us that leave the fold...it just happens in an instant , or it did for me, and i said to myself ,"its all a lie".

5: talking to my wife, whom suprised me that she had kinda reached alot of the same conclusions that i had...we dated for 8 years before we married, we were virgins when we were married and made vows that we took very seriously before god and men...she knew me as the bold minister and the grave doubter...thankfully she understands...



other stuff


I also post on www.religiousforums.com, www.bleedzao.com, used to post on www.unworthyunwritten.com also...


more later

[RevOxley_501]

something i would like to ask...might as well keep it in the same place:

Does anyone that is a former christian have the overwhelming desire to de-evangelize people...?

i know i do, i feel like i owe it to the worldwide community to undo all that i did for the church...

just curious

[Vigile]

Hi Rev,

I suspect you will grow out of your desire to de convert others. Most of us who have been around for a while seem to have anyway. It just smacks too much of the evangelistic nature of xianity. Moreover, deconverting can be quite painful for some and potentially destabilizing to others. If someone is ready for it, why not help them out, but what is to be gained by chipping away one or two people who might already be content with their lives?

I understand your desires and can empathize with them on some levels. I doubt anyone would look down at you for wanting to do this as long as you don't make an ass of yourself in the process; not saying you would.

Welcome to the site.

[Wonderingbread]

RevOxley_501, on Jul 7 2008, 09:43 AM, said:

Does anyone that is a former christian have the overwhelming desire to de-evangelize people...?

It must be incredibly painful having to leave all that you've built. I can't bring myself into a position of having brought someone, "into the fold" and then having to tell them that I'm no longer a Christian. I do somewhat have the desire to de-evangelize and I don't know if it’s the religious zeal left in me or if its part of something bigger. Personally, being surrounded by so many Christians like you are, its hard for me not to want impose my non-belief on them, but all this is quickly doused by the fact that they probably won't listen since they already have the "truth." I think that's something you may or may not have already realized. However, that's not to say that they aren't Christians who aren't open minded and who may already be doubting.

I just recall how my best friend (fundamentalist Christian) got three of his non-Christian friends saved last week. And although this is great news for him I can already ready see how much more potential for damage there is now. These newly "saved" are about 18 years of age and I just can see how devastating an impact fundamentalist Christianity would have on them at this point in their lives. At this point, their plans for college, marriage, and social activities might get seriously screwed all because they are adhering to the bible. Since they can already think for themselves the worst thing I can see happening is them getting in really deep for a few years and de-converting, having pretty much wasted precious time and having to undo all the damage, dealing with guilt, and pressure from others.

This post has been edited by Wonderingbread: 07 July 2008 - 12:49 PM

[Wonderingbread]

Vigile, on Jul 7 2008, 10:43 AM, said:

Moreover, deconverting can be quite painful for some and potentially destabilizing to others. If someone is ready for it, why not help them out, but what is to be gained by chipping away one or two people who might already be content with their lives?

Bingo. Couldn't have said it any better.

[RevOxley_501]

Vigile, on Jul 7 2008, 12:43 PM, said:

Hi Rev,

I suspect you will grow out of your desire to de convert others. Most of us who have been around for a while seem to have anyway. It just smacks too much of the evangelistic nature of xianity. Moreover, deconverting can be quite painful for some and potentially destabilizing to others. If someone is ready for it, why not help them out, but what is to be gained by chipping away one or two people who might already be content with their lives?

I understand your desires and can empathize with them on some levels. I doubt anyone would look down at you for wanting to do this as long as you don't make an ass of yourself in the process; not saying you would.

Welcome to the site.

Thanks Vigile,

Im not sure if i will grow out of it, particularly because of the massive amount of Christians I have to encounter every day....im not knocking on doors now, but when i talk to people that knew me back in high school, its one of the first things i want to say..."hey, im not a christian anymore, and i love it"....i dont know if it is entirely for the sake of de-evangelizing or if it is because i overwhelmingly wish to separate myself from who i was.


and about making an ass of myself---i most definitely WILL. I'm just really good at that.

[RevOxley_501]

Wonderingbread, on Jul 7 2008, 12:43 PM, said:

RevOxley_501, on Jul 7 2008, 09:43 AM, said:

Does anyone that is a former christian have the overwhelming desire to de-evangelize people...?

It must be incredibly painful having to leave all that you've built. I can't bring myself into a position of having brought someone, "into the fold" and then having to tell them that I'm no longer a Christian. I do somewhat have the desire to de-evangelize and I don't know if it’s the religious zeal left in me or if its part of something bigger. Personally, being surrounded by so many Christians like you are, its hard for me not to want impose my non-belief on them, but all this is quickly doused by the fact that they probably won't listen since they already have the "truth." I think that's something you may or may not have already realized. However, that's not to say that they aren't Christians who aren't open minded and who may already be doubting.

I just recall how my best friend (fundamentalist Christian) got three of his non-Christian friends saved last week. And although this is great news for him I can already ready see how much more potential for damage there is now. These newly "saved" are about 18 years of age and I just can see how devastating an impact fundamentalist Christianity would have on them at this point in their lives. At this point, their plans for college, marriage, and social activities might get seriously screwed all because they are adhering to the bible. Since they can already think for themselves the worst thing I can see happening is them getting in really deep for a few years and de-converting, having pretty much wasted precious time and having to undo all the damage, dealing with guilt, and pressure from others.

yes, exactly ---there is alot of zeal left in me, i call myself the inevitable zealot...its just something i do, hopefully i will get over that. I just dont like to see people waste their lives like i did, and i feel like if I can help people reject the idea of god, it might somehow improve the world and help us avoid one more fundie asswipe to make everyone miserable. I know first hand how destabilizing it can be to lose ones faith, but i think it for the best...

what gets me, is all the Christians that try to evangelize me now really suck compared to how great i was as a christian...i mean i was GOOD at it...i had the highlighted bible with notes, and the christian library, and the "open minded evangelism" style, and the "love in your heart" thing going on....freaking excellent at it...and these crappy little hypocrite Christians are now shoving their godspell down MY throat screw that---I'm still a better christian than most.

</rant>

[Vigile]

I should mention that one of the primary reasons many of us grow out of this desire is due to the fact that debating xians is like debating a brick. They can be pretty thick and after you've banged your head against them enough times you get a bit weary of their total inability to see reason as they continue to spout back the same inane arguments.

[RevOxley_501]

Vigile, on Jul 7 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

I should mention that one of the primary reasons many of us grow out of this desire is due to the fact that debating xians is like debating a brick. They can be pretty thick and after you've banged your head against them enough times you get a bit weary of their total inability to see reason as they continue to spout back the same inane arguments.

yea i used to be a bit of a brick

i definitely know.

[funky_uncle]

Vigile, on Jul 7 2008, 08:03 PM, said:

I should mention that one of the primary reasons many of us grow out of this desire is due to the fact that debating xians is like debating a brick. They can be pretty thick and after you've banged your head against them enough times you get a bit weary of their total inability to see reason as they continue to spout back the same inane arguments.

It's funny, because I think most christians are christians either because they've been brought up to be, or because they've had some sort of (seemingly?) supernatural experience with God (I belong to both categories, though I'm now sort of an agnostic). But when they meet atheists/sceptics, they'll often try to argue based on logic or reason, even though they themselves didn't come to faith because of logic and reason at all. I think that even the bible suggests that reason and logic has nothing to do with it - in fact Paul wrote that faith is a GIFT, not a conclusion you come to because somebody argues with you.

Anyway, I guess the reasonable thing to do would be to simply ask them exactly WHY they believe the things they do.

[Ouroboros]

RevOxley_501, on Jul 7 2008, 11:23 AM, said:

yea i used to be a bit of a brick

i definitely know.

Me too. I was a brick for Jesus. Like a true jezombie.

Now, I'm a brick for Nohweh.

Btw, Welcome to our site.

[Astreja]

Welcome to the forum, Rev! Great ex-timony.

[Curtdude]

Hey Rev, interesting history - god you holy rollers WERE weird hehehehehehe.

Welcome to reality.

[Jedah]

Since there is no kind of imminent threat from believing in fairy tales, I do not see very many reasons to "deconvert" people. This is especially true with older people. Once a person has reached a certain age the brain begins to become stagnant and has a harder time forming new neural connections, and because of this most older folk may be mentally incapable of comprehending the idea that their core understanding of reality is nothing but a sad dreamworld. As much as I hate to use movie references, Morpheus ( The Matrix ) had it right when he apologized to Neo and stated "We never free a mind once it has reached a certain age". People just can't handle it.

On the other hand, younger people ( below 25 ) who were brainwashed from the cradle up do make me feel sorry for them. But rather then directly attack the Bible or even Christianity I tend to be more discreet - I use philosophical arguments against Christianity without actually stating that what I am talking about has anything to do with their beliefs, and only when they show understanding of what I am saying I then show how it pertains to their religion. Some may see this as underhanded, but I've come to find that the only way to get people to honestly examine dogmatic beliefs is to not let them realize that they are examining their own religion until after they have already started to think.

I tend to stick with the doctrine of hell as a good way to sow the seeds of doubt in young minds, so that they will at the very least come to realize that fundamentalism is fatally flawed.

This post has been edited by Jedah: 16 July 2008 - 01:13 PM

[HappyChef]

Hi rev,first I would like to say.. Welcome from the bottom of my heart.I am glad to see a person who once wielded the power of leadership grow to the point you have.By being here and interacting with us you are as much an encouragement to us as we are to you.

Yes, I for one go out of my way to deconvert as many people as I can,now that I have grown spiritually to this point in my life.
While I take a softer line than those opposed to our point of view,I'm no less convinced of my choices.

I spent 15 years as a Firefighter/Paramedic and I spent the best years of my life serving my community.I now see what christianity has done to my life and do everything in my ability to steer people away from it.To be an open and honest with people about the suffering fanatics cause, and have caused in my life, is my approach.

To show people that my life is full of "blessings and wealth of spirit " and then tell them I'm atheist blows them away!It is the most hilarious thing you have ever seen.LOL

Peace,Daniel

[Misterspock1]

Wow, your "testimony" seems brutal.

I was also a "fundie brick," though I wasn't ordained to the ministry or anything. I did witness to people, and worked really hard to see one of my best friends become a Christian. He ended up leaving his faith, though didn't tell me until after I left mine. When I left my faith, he is one of the first people I felt I owed an apology to, since I felt I had caused him to waste time and effort on something I no longer believed was real. So when you talk about deconversion, I can definitely understand the motive behind it. I don't feel the need to do it with everyone I witnessed to, or to people I know who are still Christians, just because I don't want to shove my beliefs down their throats like I did when I was a Christian (and like many of my Christian friends/family do still). However, like in the instance of that friend, there are some people that I feel I owe an apology to.

[Neon Genesis]

Welcome to the site, RevOxley! I can understand how you feel about deconverting Christians. It's like when you deconvert you just want to share it with everybody. At the same time though, I don't go around purposely seeking Christians to debate with. I'll debate with Christians if they want to discuss it just because I'm almost always up for a debate. Otherwise I don't discuss it with them mainly for two reasons. One being that I don't like it when Christians try to convert me, so I'd feel guilty for trying to do the same to them, but also mostly because I know it'd be a waste of time. The majority of Christians aren't interested in having a discussion at all and only want to preach and I find debating with them to be a waste of time and I also just don't like dealing with the frustration. I'll debate it if someone wants to have an actual discussion about it, but otherwise as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves, I don't care to actively deconvert Christians.