[Not_Scarevangelist]

Hello.

Do you remember me? I'm one of the Universalists who wrote here long ago. You asked me a lot of questions. I failed to answer them. I continued to follow my religion.

But what happened after that? I'll tell you. The family of my girlfriend proved to be not the righteous family I knew before. The sister of my girlfriend left her parents and now she lives without marriage with a boy who's going to be a pastor one day. And by the way, he's the most hypocritical person I've ever seen.

I left the church and I haven't been there for months. The pastor of the church was a JERK, an ASSHOLE. I have seen bad and cruel people even before. But he's the baddest person I've ever met in my short life. I spoke too much about things I didn't like in church. And he threatened me in a horrible way.

I'm having questions about the faith more than ever. While I still believe in Universal reconciliation, I think I'm no longer the Christian I used to be. Do I believe in God? Well... still yes. Do I love him? If I have to be brutally honest, NO! Why? Because I don't see how my religion explains the problem of evil. Even if Universalism is true, I fail to see why God chooses people for destruction. I fail to see why God allows so much suffering. What's the purpose of suffering?

And most importantly, I don't pray at all.

That's it. I just wanted to drop you a message.

This post has been edited by Not_Scarevangelist: 20 February 2009 - 05:57 PM

[Ouroboros]

Kind of sounds like you don't deserve the squid symbol anymore...

In a way I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but now you see where most of us come from, and it can be earth-shaking. We'll be here. I can't promise the answer which would clear up all the muddy water, because you have to find your own path, but we're here to help put our flashlights out so at least you know where to put your feet.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

HanSolo: Now I remember you!

If I recall correctly, you were the man with the ill son, the one who didn't get cured. I remember the moment when you asked me why I think I didn't happen.

I answered: I don't know, but there must be a logical reason and only God knows it...

I was unable to give you a brief answer.

[Ouroboros]

Not_Scarevangelist, on Feb 20 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

If I recall correctly, you were the man with the ill son, the one who didn't get cured. I remember the moment when you asked me why I think I didn't happen.

Correct.

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I answered: I don't know, but there must be a logical reason and only God knows it...

I was unable to give you a brief answer.

Didn't I challenge you to pray for him too?

I don't remember when you were here last, do you know? Was it one year ago?

[Not_Scarevangelist]

More than a year ago!

Here's my thread:

http://www.ex-christ...w...c=20517&hl=

What has happened to me?

[Ouroboros]

Not_Scarevangelist, on Feb 20 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

What has happened to me?

You started to ask questions... you want to know things. You have introspective thoughts. That's a no-no if you want to keep your faith.

And of course, you had experiences that didn't match your belief, and ran out of excuses to explain it away.

[Looking4Answers]

Hello Not_Scarevangeli,

I, for one, appreciate your honest and open post here. It is a struggle indeed. Like you, I had also witnessed some pretty mean people in the church and even in the pulpit. There were many factors that caused me to reconsider my faith and to de-convert. Most of them had to do with the Bible itself. For example, it seemed pretty clear to me that the Gospels and the book of Acts showed that the Holy Spirit, which supposedly indwells all believers, was to bring about unity among his people and lead them to all truth. While there was struggle (as seen in the book of Acts) the Spirit of God won the day and unity was brought about time and time again. Spirit filled people (like the Apostle Paul) would be used to bring "reason" to the believers, binding them in supposed biblical truth. However, despite this "power" being evident in the Bible, I never personally witnessed this in the church. Since I served as both a pastor and a missionary, this was especially troubling. I served in many churches along the US's east coast and in a few countries as well. Despite this, unity was something that the supposed Spirit of God never brought to any of them. And truth didn't follow either. In fact, most believers I know (and church leaders) are divided over this meaning, that teaching or this or that passage. Ugh! What a mess.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

There are two main reasons I **prefer*** to keep my faith...

1. MY GIRLFRIEND! Believe me, I love her very much ... She believes in Jesus, loves him, spends time in prayer and won't marry me If I'm not Christian.

2. If there's no God, then there's no afterlife... It's scary to me.

But I have reached the point I can't follow contradictive teachings...

PS: I edit the post to add my reason number 3:

3. "WHAT IF" argument. What if I am wrong and ...

This post has been edited by Not_Scarevangelist: 20 February 2009 - 06:32 PM

[Ouroboros]

Looking4Answers, on Feb 20 2009, 03:22 PM, said:

Like you, I had also witnessed some pretty mean people in the church and even in the pulpit.

You're saying we--on this website--are not mean enough to scare you away? :grin:

[Ouroboros]

Not_Scarevangelist, on Feb 20 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

But I have reached the point I can't follow contradictive teachings...

Oh man... when it hits, it hits hard. The realization isn't fun, and can be quite mind-blowing. You feel it is right, and yet you fight against it. Just get ready for a bit of a roller-coaster, both mentally, emotionally, and perhaps even in your social life.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

Of course, that's true. It hurts...

I have probably reached the point of agnosticism.

But... you know. If you're an agnostic, you are not a true Christian. You *just* suppose there's God.

Anyway, I probably stopped being a "true Christian" when I stopped believing in hell..

Thanks for your support.

This post has been edited by Not_Scarevangelist: 20 February 2009 - 06:40 PM

[Looking4Answers]

Quote

There are two main reasons I **prefer*** to keep my faith...

1. MY GIRLFRIEND! Believe me, I love her very much ... She believes in Jesus, loves him, spends time in prayer and won't marry me If I'm not Christian.

2. If there's no God, then there's no afterlife... It's scary to me.

But I have reached the point I can't follow contradictive teachings...

PS: I edit the post to add my reason number 3:

3. "WHAT IF" argument. What if I am wrong and ...

I would like to address point #1. I know what I am going to say may be hard to hear and may even be painful, but you don't want to marry this girl if she is as you describe ... loves Jesus, prays to Jesus and won't marry you if you are not a Christian. This is a big danger flag. Trust me. I know! I know all too well! I was a preacher and a missionary and married for 15 years to a wife that loves Jesus, prays to Jesus and wouldn't have married me if I was not a Christian. However, when I finally de-converted everything went south and it did so FAST! I won't talk about my story here, but I will just say that no one wants to be going through what I am going through. I will say that my wife has not talked to me in almost 7 months now (which, by the way, is about how long ago I de-converted)!

Let's briefly look at the other points:

#2 - If there is no god then ... what? Who knows? Perhaps there is an afterlife. Perhaps not. But why should no afterlife be scary? Does it hurt to just cease to exist? There is no eternal suffering in ceasing to exist, right? So there is nothing "bad" about this. Without a god and without an afterlife the worse thing that can happen is ... nothing! Nothing bad at all. Why should this worry anyone?

#3 - Doesn't this point also apply to believing as well as not believing? Cannot a person who is in Christianity say, "What if I am wrong?" What if I have been serving god all this time and he doesn't even exist? What if I have denied myself many forms of happiness her in this life expecting joy and reward in the next only to find that THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE? So #3 swings both ways.

For me, what it comes down to (for the Christian) is the Bible a reliable book? If it is not (and I contend that it is not in any fashion that matters) then why should we believe what it says for things that cannot be tried or tested? If the Bible is not a reliable book, then why should I believe what it says about the afterlife? About god? About salvation?

[Ouroboros]

Not_Scarevangelist, on Feb 20 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

Of course, that's true. It hurts...

For me--everyone is different--it was like a shower of a mix of feelings. I knew I couldn't help it. I didn't want it, and yet I somehow did. It was like being starved, and the only way to survive would be to steal food or kill someone to eat, like doing the unthinkable, but couldn't help it. No choice. The mind already knew, but the emotions still were fighting against. And for quite a while I did have anxiety attacks. I so wanted to believe, but couldn't. And I probably told you that I did pray to (whatever) God to give me faith again, but nothing happened. Over the years you work through the issues and eventually you become this arrogant, evil entity, like myself, who with arrogant display call the believers all foul words in the play-book. :grin: It will take time, but eventually things will start to mellow out and get organized again. It's like being born again... *oh, shit! shouldn't have said that!*

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I have probably reached the point of agnosticism.

And you might never leave it. It's not a bad place to be, only different.

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But... you know. If you're an agnostic, you are not a true Christian. You *just* suppose there's God.

Anyway, I probably stopped being a "true Christian" when I stopped believing in hell..

You probably stopped being a "true Christian" when you stopped following the Church guidelines. Believe as your pastor tell you to believe, then it's all a-okay. If not, you're pretty much a heathen, following your own heart instead of church dogma.

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Thanks for your support.

That's why we are here.

(And listen to L4A above, he just recently came out, and he's in a living Hell right now. He got the recent experiences more fresh than I do.)

[Not_Scarevangelist]

Looking4answers, I'd like to address your last passage.

I study molecular biology and I'm very familiar with the subject. Even when I was a regular church goer I couldn't believe in Genesis. I knew it's scientifically false.

The big question: Should we trust the Bible as a book that obviously teaches us good things: "Respect you parents, Don't kill, Don't steal, Love the other people", ignoring several other passages like "whoever doesn't hate his etc. etc. etc. cannot be my disciple"

[Looking4Answers]

Not_Scarevangelist, on Feb 20 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

The big question: Should we trust the Bible as a book that obviously teaches us good things: "Respect you parents, Don't kill, Don't steal, Love the other people", ignoring several other passages like "whoever doesn't hate his etc. etc. etc. cannot be my disciple"

The things you are talking about are not unique to the Bible. For example, there are many good things similar to these teachings in Buddhism. The point being, if I can gain this wisdom some place other than through a book that I know is filled with hate, contradictions and falsehoods, why not get the wisdom in this other place?

[Not_Scarevangelist]

I can be a good cherry-picker. I won't be ashamed if I am a cherry picker. Hey, all Christians are cherry pickers. Normally women are forbidden to speak in church, but... you know. Go to church and see with your own eyes :)

[Deva]

Not Scare - you were only a half-way xian even then. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. It looks like you are starting to wake up and come to your senses.

The Bible may have some good things, but they are outweighed by the bad.

[Not_Scarevangelist]

Thanks...

I only know that I need time. I need to think about my life- what Christianity gives me and what it takes away from me. I can't take such a decision easily. I need to study, to seek answers for my questions.

After all, even the Bible promises that if I search for the truth, I will find it. I hope so! I hope I will find it... Wherever it is...

This post has been edited by Not_Scarevangelist: 20 February 2009 - 07:12 PM

[Ouroboros]

Not_Scarevangelist, on Feb 20 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

After all, even the Bible promises that if I search for the truth, I will find it. I hope so! I hope I will find it... Wherever it is...

Socrates said something like: each person will arrive at "the truth" through careful thought.

And he was executed too, for standing up for his beliefs, as a traitor against the "old religion."

Use your mind. Think. And don't trust old books. Because old books only contain the ideas of truth from other people, and not the actual truths.

[Looking4Answers]

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Should we trust the Bible as a book that obviously teaches us good things:

The key word in your statement is "trust." That is a pretty BIG word. I am sure that the majority of what was in Jim Jones mix was kool-aid, but it was the other bit that killed everyone. The Bible has some good lines in it. Certainly. But the rest does more than offset any good that is in it (in my opinion).