[Grease Monkey]

I have a really weird predicament....



One of the main reasons I walked away from Christianity and religion for good was because it doesn't make any sense to me. After being forced to reconvert and repent like 8 times in my life, I finally walked away from it for good... but now I have this unbeleivable fear of hell.. even though I constantly think it doesn't exist.

The main thing that always comes up is "What if??"... "What if it does exist and the whole damn thing is true".

I don't understand why I still freak out about it whenever someone starts talking about natural disasters or how the earth will scientifically have to die...

I don't understand why I'm faced with an unbeleivable fear of hell when I already think it doesn't exist.

It torments me alot of the time, and I just want to be rid of it... why are there so many religions.. and they don't make sense. I try to reason logically about hell and heaven and god... but it still torments me. I don't understand how brainwashing can have such a STRONG influence on me and I don't know why it has to bother me so much this way.

I mean there are sooo many contradictions I've seen in the bible, and it HAS to be written by man... but in my mind I find it hard to beleive that because of all the proof I was given as a kid as to how and the evidience that it WAS written by god through man... it doesn't make any sense.

Why can't I just accept the fact that religion is total bullshit, and get rid of my fear of hell? I'm tired of tossing and turning at night and sleepless nights over such a subject, and I just want peace on the issue... and there is NO WAY I would EVER go back to religion.

I've found a new way of life.. thats more enjoyable and more fulfilling and I'm not giving it up just to rid myself of a fear that needs go away.

Can anyone help me with this?? Or is it something that one needs to figure out on their own?

[mwc]

You're in New Zealand. That's "under" the world. Do you see hell? ;)

I saw a quote today that said something like "You can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into." I don't think that telling you that hell isn't real, it's made up or any of that is going to help you. You're obviously upset by something irrational and no amount of my rationalizations are going to fix that.

mwc

[Neon Genesis]

One thing that's helped me with the fear of hell is something called the Atheist's Wager, which is an atheist response to Pascal's Wager. The basic argument goes like this. What if God exists but God values skeptics who are honestly seeking the truth over Christians who just blindly believe because someone told them to believe and so God decides to save the skeptics instead of the believers? If it turns out that God exists and God values skepticism over blind faith, then you would have gained everything. If it turns out that God doesn't exist then you would have lost nothing. On the other hand, if it turns out God is real but God values skepticism over faith, then the Christians would have lost everything. So, even if there is a god, if God values skepticism over faith, then it's still a better bet to be a skeptic over a believer and the believers are the ones who should be worrying about their fate. And if it turns out God is real, then all you need is an iron chariot because Judges 1:19 says God loses to iron chariots

Quote

The Lord was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain, because they had chariots of iron.

This post has been edited by Neon Genesis: 02 June 2009 - 05:51 PM

[florduh]

Sorry you're still suffering.

Since you already know the truth about all those old fearsome control tactics, there's not much else I can add. You don't need any more proof.

What you do need is deprogramming. Your rational mind is in gear, but your emotional component can't connect. Hypnosis or perhaps other psychological therapies can help your emotions escape the bondage as you've already done on an intellectual level. Proper healing takes whatever it takes. It's different for everyone.

[chefranden]

Well lets suppose there is a hell.

Now what?

We used to have a saying in Vietnam when we were feeling a bit rebellious, "What are they going to do to us? Send us to Vietnam?"

When ya get to hell, you don't have to put up with any of their shit, because what are they going to do to if you don't? They can't even kill ya. When one of those demon things starts poking you with his pitch fork take it away and poke him back.

[Jabbrwokk]

I suppose you could take some comfort in the fact that Jesus made up hell. Well, more accurately, he took some pre-existing concepts and added to them.

In the bible there is little or no mention of any kind of afterlife until Daniel, which was written during the Jews' captivity in Babylon. Not surprisingly, they picked up on some of the local religion, including Zoroastrianism, which – surprise! – teaches about heaven and hell and is also where the concept of Satan comes from.

Jesus expanded on this and so did Paul, because it's a powerful control to convince someone you have the power to send them to eternal torture. The book of Revelation kind of sums it all up in a bloody, gory and horrific finale and although I believe its original intent was as a poetic metaphor, the book has been used to inflict more psychological damage than any other book in history.

I understand your terror. I am going through some of this myself. It's not something you'll just be able to get over. Like a dog who's been beaten by an abusive owner, it's going to take some time to get over the cringe reflex.

You'll get there. It's helping me to understand where the concept of hell actually came from, and understanding the timeline of the bible, watching the whole thing evolve from tribal myths to state religion to personality cult.

[HereticZero]

I believe, like most of us, you were a believer for many years? It is most difficult to disbelieve what we have been taught to believe for many years, day after day. As Christians, we lived the life. When confronted with disbelief, our minds try to rationalize many 'what if' scenarios: what if hell is real? What if heaven is real? What if judgment is real? I find myself asking these same questions and I reassure myself that if god made itself known to the world, there would not be so many religions pointing in different directions. We would all know what god looks like, what he sounds like, where he lives, how the earth was made, how the cosmos was created, and we would all have the same expectations of any afterlife. Because no god has unified these religions with a personal appearance to the world at large, either there is no god or he is not concerned with our perceptions of her. God's thoughts are not our thoughts, his imaginations are not our imaginations. If there is a god, she is content with her creation in whatever course we have set for ourselves as a race of humans. Perhaps she is still waiting on us to evolve into what she expects out of us before making herself known? I call god a 'she' because the woman is the life-giver, in my mind. As humans our perceptions of god are imperfect and I would also expect our vision of god's afterlife to be imperfect as well. Punishments and rewards are a creation by the living for the living. When we die, all of our fantasies will be made clear once and for all. Some day we all get an education. We all die and we will all know once and for all everything there is to know about God or we will just 'go to sleep' and that will be the end of it. I have seen and experienced humanity's most cruel moments and what man creates in his mind is the most perverted concepts of how a 'loving god' would love us to death and terrorize us for eternity for the single act of unbelief, an eternity of burning in the flames of hell. I cannot believe a god would subject her children to such torment for eternity. Seeing is believing. Even in the bible, the disciple Thomas was not condemned for his nonbelief, he had to see it to believe it. Likewise, such a god would put our fears at rest by showing herself to us when we die and welcome us home, not toss us out with the trash.

I do not believe that a god, any god, is as cruel as our imaginations make him or her out to be. Hell does not exist. I firmly believe that there is no hell. Hell is the product of religious doctrine that plays on our fears of the great mystery, the great unknown of what happens after death. I believe that if there is a god, all humanity, the cruel and the kind, will be welcomed to her. Our life is the product of what we make of it. If there is a god, then the afterlife is what she makes of it. Just as our parents are kind towards us when we do wrong, god is just as kind, if not kinder and forgiving. I do not believe hell has any place in our future.

[I Broke Free]

There are atheists in the Middle East who have left Islam and have the same fear you do about hell. What would you say to comfort them? You might just find what you are looking for in that response.

[jdog]

I am sorry that you are being tormented with this.

You know you could have a bit of OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. The symptoms of ocd is not always an action it can be obsessive thoughts about one subject, and with you it is the subject of hell. However much you try and rationalize it keeps coming back.

Make sure you are taking care of your health.
Cut back or even try and eliminate caffeine and sugar and junk food, sodas, if you are consuming those things. You may think what is the link between the thoughts you are having and your diet. It is surprising how our anxiety level, and just our moods in general can be altered by all the stupid crap they put in processed foods. And so if someone is suffering with some kind of ocd or anxiety, it can only be exasperated by these chemicals in foods. Try and go more natural, fresh foods and whole grain. eat lean meat and reduce red meat intake to perhaps once a week or every two weeks. There are calming herbs too, such as chamomile and others which you can always research, if you are truly interested in calming the mind and these thoughts.
I would say take some supplements, vitamins and minerals. B complex is very important for the nerves and mind. Fish oil is rich in the omega 3 fatty acids, that so many people are low in and is important for health and well being.

You could be low in serotonin levels, also amino acids too. it is very interesting how our minds can go off kilter when brain chemicals are out of balance.

Also I am sure this link about hell was posted here at ex-christian. So here it is again just in case you have never read it, and perhaps, it will shed some light on the subject or at least give you a reminder of hey it is all bull shit.

http://www.tentmaker...fhellisreal.htm

As Florduh said, it takes whatever it takes to heal. I would suggest seeking some kind of therapy.

[Snakefoot]

chefranden, on Jun 2 2009, 06:05 PM, said:

Well lets suppose there is a hell.

Now what?

We used to have a saying in Vietnam when we were feeling a bit rebellious, "What are they going to do to us? Send us to Vietnam?"

When ya get to hell, you don't have to put up with any of their shit, because what are they going to do to if you don't? They can't even kill ya. When one of those demon things starts poking you with his pitch fork take it away and poke him back.

I've cheated death and slain the beast;
Gorged upon a grisly feast;
Touched the fire and felt the blade;
And seen the place where Hell was made.

[idic]

Here's a couple of things that helped me. They may or may not work for you because, as folks here have said, we are all different.

First, I did a fairly thorough study of the scriptures on the subject and, you know what I found out, the scriptures don't support the interpretation of hell that is taught in Chrisitanity:
1. There is no afterlife in the majority of the Old Testament. At first, the Jews simply believed that when you died, you died. Everyone went to the same place - sheol (the grave).
2. Towards the end of the OT, while Israel was captive in Babylon, some sects of Judaism DID start to believe in the afterlife (influenced by pagan Babylonian religions). The Pharisees started to believe that Jews who were faithful to Judaism would be resurrected to live in a perfect world. Jews who were unfaithful were thought to remain dead or, under the influence of Babylon, they might suffer some kind of conscious torment. The Sadducees, another religious sect of Judaism, held to the older concepts that there was no afterlife and no resurrection.
3. When Jesus comes along, he seems to side with the Pharisees. BUT almost all of his warnings about hell point to the destruction of the Jews in the Valley of Gehenna in AD69. Look this up in a study Bible if you don't believe me.
4. Paul, being an ex-Pharisee, is also big on hell. As you already know, these scripture writers did not speak for God, what they wrote was a product of their own imaginations and religion.
5. John portrays hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire in the book of Revelation. Personally, I think John ate alot of mushrooms on the isle of Patmos, but the Tentmaker website can show "scriptural proof" (if one needs that kind of thing) that the Lake of Fire is TOTAL destruction, annihilation, and that hell is cast into it.

So my studies of the scriptures showed me that the bible is FAR from monolithic on the subject.

I then considered whether the notion of hell, as taught by Christianity, lines up with what we know of our universe. In Judeo-Christian, the universe (the ENTIRE universe) is made up of three tiers: the heavens (containing clouds, birds, stars, the Sun, and, of course, the Big Guy himself; the flat earth; and the foundations of the earth (the underworld). These foundations were thought to be four huge pillars that held the earth up. Eventually, hell was thought to exist in the "underworld" and the church later moved it to the "center of the earth" (though some argued it was in the Sun). Now? Does any of this line up with reality, with cosmology as we know it? Nope. When the Soviets first went into outerspace, they did not find God there. And we have proven that the earth is round. So it stands to reason, logically, that everything else (including hell) is part of this fairy tale also.

Lastly, I considered the moral problem of hell. Robert Ingersoll has a great essay on this. You can Google it if you are interested. But the notion that God could punish someone for ever and ever is simply ludicrous. A moral person could never torment an enemy forever. It would make the tormentor immoral. Christians say that those in hell are paying for their sins. Well, they are not "paying" if God never accepts the "payment", are they? It is only in immoral people or societies that punishment is done without aim to reform. Anyone who punishes just to punish is immoral, whether they be human of "God."

But a large part of all this was that I was taught this doctrine as a child, as a person who could not rationally or critically think through the issues involved. I believed it simply because religious authorities told me so and they had a number of "proof texts" to stick this thing in my mind. It is based, as you know, upon fear. And it is hard to be rational when one is fearful. Religion knows this VERY well. That is why they aim their hellish doctrines at our children with innocent-sounding programs like Sunday School and Vacation Bible School.

In conclusion, there was no "magic bullet" for me to lose my fear of hell. I think Pascal's wager is stupid. Again, it is based, not in true logic, but in fear and, as Paul said in "Dune", "Fear is the mind-killer." But I no more believe in hell than I believe that Santa will bring me rocks for Christmas or that stepping on a crack will break my mother's back. I'm growing up...finally. I know better.

trekker

[Tabula Rasa]

chefranden, on Jun 2 2009, 06:05 PM, said:

Well lets suppose there is a hell.

Now what?

We used to have a saying in Vietnam when we were feeling a bit rebellious, "What are they going to do to us? Send us to Vietnam?"

When ya get to hell, you don't have to put up with any of their shit, because what are they going to do to if you don't? They can't even kill ya. When one of those demon things starts poking you with his pitch fork take it away and poke him back.

Chef, your reply reminded me of an idea I have. Neon mentions the Atheist wager, well I have the "Bait and Switch " wager. Supposing there's a hell and heaven, maybe it was something like this- The real reason Lucifer rebelled was because God was a complete asshole and he and the 1/3rd of the angels got tired of his shit. So they get kicked out and fall down into hell out of the presence of God.(But if he's a dickhead, how could that be a bad thing?)

So maybe it's like this: God is the bad guy, and judging by the bible, that's the case, and Lucifer is on humanity's side. God has his clergymen getting people "saved" so he'll have more people to kiss his ass, while Lucifer encourages people to think for themselves so they'll die "damned" and not end up having to kiss God's ass forever.
And knowing what a evil fuck God is, Lucifer would be a kindred spirit to humanity, and hell wouldn't be a pit of fire and brimstone, but more like limbo, where all us folks who thought for ourselves have eternal freedom from a monstrous God who just wants us to grovel before him forever.

This post has been edited by Tabula Rasa: 02 June 2009 - 11:23 PM

[Rank Stranger]

It might help to read up on the history of the hell concept and other 'afterlife' notions besides the one that has a grip on your imagination. I know that you KNOW that there's no reason to believe in it- but it might help intuitively to read some equally ridiculous afterlife nonsense that you have no fear of- but have just as much 'proof' backing them up.

[nightflight]

This video might help you.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wbrQI0r1B7w

[decafaholic]

Quote

Chef, your reply reminded me of an idea I have. Neon mentions the Atheist wager, well I have the "Bait and Switch " wager. Supposing there's a hell and heaven, maybe it was something like this- The real reason Lucifer rebelled was because God was a complete asshole and he and the 1/3rd of the angels got tired of his shit. So they get kicked out and fall down into hell out of the presence of God.(But if he's a dickhead, how could that be a bad thing?)

I agree!! Think about it: according to the bible, how many people did God kill? Thousands upon thousands upon thousands. Either God killed them directly by causing the earth to open up and swallow them, natural disaster, disease OR he ordered "his people" to kill off others. Now, according to the bible, how many people did Satan kill? Hmmm....I can't think of any. In the garden of Eden, God lied to Adam and Eve by telling them eating the forbidden fruit would kill them. Who told them the truth? The serpent.

Sometimes my friends and I have this thing where we say "I'm sooo going to hell for saying that! But you know what? All the cool people are there! Jimmy Hendrix, John Lennon, basically every good musician ever, plus all the great authors, and let's not forget Ghandi. How bad could hell be if all the greatest people are there?"

Also I echo what others have said: the Old Testament doesn't seem to have much to say about any afterlife. It looks like something the Christians borrowed from other religions.

But knowing all of this doesn't take the edge off your emotions, because you (and all of us here) were brainwashed and that shit doesn't go away overnight. This week is the 2 year anniversary of when i stopped believing in Christianity. I am happy now and my life is great. I have a sense of peace that lasts even through the speed bumps and the difficulties that arise. But it wasn't easy at first. At first I was kind of like you: thinking what if hell is real, what if I die, and I was very anxious about death for a while. Life seemed so fragile. Therapy, talking with others on this board and (strangely enough) writing out a "last will and testament" gradually gave me the closure I needed. I wish I had an answer for you! Something simple like A+B=C. But I'm sorry, I don't. I just know that over time, as I read and talked and lived my life, I started to feel better and better.

You're going to get through this. And we're here at the board to give you a pep talk when you need it.

[Franko47]

One wonders just how long Christianity would have survived without the "hellfire" card.


The primary tool of those who wish to manipulate ignorant and under-developed minds is fear. All throughout history, and even today, we see this game still being played.

People living in ancient times understood that it was "hot" underneath the earth's surface. Volcanic activity, hot springs, and so on were observable even during the time of the Greeks, who believed that when people die their souls went underneath the ground, to a place called "Hades", or a continuum that was composed of an Eden-like place (the Ellysium Fields), or a place of fire and brimstone (sound familiar?) known as Tartarus. There was also a third condition, where souls would aimlessly wander the banks of the river Styx, pondering over their regrets or trying to remember who they were. (purgatory?)

These archetypes were quite widespread throughout the ancient world, especially in the BC period, and were shared by the Greeks, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Hebrews, and so on.

It would be quite natural for these concepts to be reiterated in the New Testament era; and as we have seen, quite tempting to use in order to influence many people to accept certain religious conditions. In fact, it would natural for them to do so. Religion is always drawing upon concepts and archetypes that came before it.

One of the questions I often ask Christians who still believe in this form of "punishment", is why such a fate would be necessary to impose on a human after they have died, or been judged, or whatever. Punishment is a response to immoral or criminal behaviour; and in every culture the idea has always been that there be a relative system of justice (however crazy) that forms a graduated system of that which "fits the crime".

It's interesting to note that Christians have always claimed that their Faith is about "justice", "mercy", "repentance", and so on, yet the punishment of eternal suffering does not match any of this criteria. It stands outside even the logic of Christian morality, purpose, and equivalence. It is the final insanity of the religious mind, or perhaps a secret belief that in the end their God is insane, and so we'd better humour him. You would be surprised that my last statement here is not altogether totally off the mark. Deep down there are many Christians who secretly fear that their fabulous god may in fact, be a self-indulgent raging lunatic. Even when I was a Christian I realized that an all encompassing God who had created such glorious things as the Universe, Nature, Humans, and NHL hockey could not be so twisted as to want to torture a person forever.

I'm amazed sometimes that Christians actually accept this condition. Even if I were judged and admitted into "Paradise", yet knew this was still going to be the fate of many, I'm afraid that I would have to raise objection. I find it hard to believe that millions of genteel Christians would not be joining me in such an objection, and demanding that "God" justify this horrid practice, and explain why it was "necessary".

This is what frightens me sometimes about many Christians I know who are generally nice people and are even against the death penalty, or advocate more social programs instead of the despair of prisons. And yet, when I raise this issue, they shrug, and talk about "God's Will", or that there is some bizarre reason "we" can't "fathom" why such a punishment is necessary.

In every case it becomes clear that they are just afraid. They are afraid to question the policies of a God they supposedly "love", yet will look the other way when he goes "psycho" on people, even people who have led goodly lives but just didn't accept their religion.

It's born from magical thinking, and using magical rationalizations for justification. There would be no element of "justice" to it, nor would it be necessary in order to protect the "saved". It has no rhyme or reason, it is merely a form of mental masturbation. Like the child who lays awake at night afraid of the dark, and then feels better when mommy leaves a light on. After a while it creates a system of "fear and relief", which can produce endorphins. Thus the cycle of being "terrorized" by religious fears is offset by "prayer and devotion". The practitioner goes through a mood of euphoric relief once they have convinced themselves that they are saved from this brutal fate. Again, endorphins are released. A state of relief and even euphoria develops. You get the idea. ( This can also sometimes be the basis of a bit of an OCD complex. )

Remember, even if you went back to being a religious person, the slightest amount of doubt could still put you in jeopardy of hell fire. In fact, many fundamentalists believe that a great many Christians will still perish from the judgement. It's all pretty crazy when you stand back far enough and look at it. A religion of peace and harmony and kindness, ultimately backed up once again by mankind's favourite hook...... Violence.

Please, give me a God that stands on it's own philosophy and rational motives; not one that ultimately must terrorize me into submission. That isn't a God, that is a construct of humans who deep down have a smoldering anger for those who don't share their delusion.

[Neon Genesis]

idic, on Jun 2 2009, 10:21 PM, said:

Here's a couple of things that helped me. They may or may not work for you because, as folks here have said, we are all different.

First, I did a fairly thorough study of the scriptures on the subject and, you know what I found out, the scriptures don't support the interpretation of hell that is taught in Chrisitanity:
1. There is no afterlife in the majority of the Old Testament. At first, the Jews simply believed that when you died, you died. Everyone went to the same place - sheol (the grave).
2. Towards the end of the OT, while Israel was captive in Babylon, some sects of Judaism DID start to believe in the afterlife (influenced by pagan Babylonian religions). The Pharisees started to believe that Jews who were faithful to Judaism would be resurrected to live in a perfect world. Jews who were unfaithful were thought to remain dead or, under the influence of Babylon, they might suffer some kind of conscious torment. The Sadducees, another religious sect of Judaism, held to the older concepts that there was no afterlife and no resurrection.
3. When Jesus comes along, he seems to side with the Pharisees. BUT almost all of his warnings about hell point to the destruction of the Jews in the Valley of Gehenna in AD69. Look this up in a study Bible if you don't believe me.
4. Paul, being an ex-Pharisee, is also big on hell. As you already know, these scripture writers did not speak for God, what they wrote was a product of their own imaginations and religion.
5. John portrays hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire in the book of Revelation. Personally, I think John ate alot of mushrooms on the isle of Patmos, but the Tentmaker website can show "scriptural proof" (if one needs that kind of thing) that the Lake of Fire is TOTAL destruction, annihilation, and that hell is cast into it.

This was a good point to bring up. As I was reading through the entire bible, one thing I noticed was that for all the preaching fundies did on hell, there's very little details about what hell actually is in the bible. Like is hell a literal place of eternal torment, is it a metaphor for a spiritual state of mind, or does hell mean death for non-believers? The scriptures don't seem to agree with each other and there doesn't seem to be any sort of universal agreement as to what hell is. The most descriptions we get of hell in the bible are either in Revelation, which is heavily symbolic anyway, or from the story of Lazarus and Dives, which some Christians debate as to whether it was intended to be a parable or a literal story. There's also this question of how exactly will we be able to feel any pain if we're already dead anyway?

Quote

Lastly, I considered the moral problem of hell. Robert Ingersoll has a great essay on this. You can Google it if you are interested. But the notion that God could punish someone for ever and ever is simply ludicrous. A moral person could never torment an enemy forever. It would make the tormentor immoral. Christians say that those in hell are paying for their sins. Well, they are not "paying" if God never accepts the "payment", are they? It is only in immoral people or societies that punishment is done without aim to reform. Anyone who punishes just to punish is immoral, whether they be human of "God."

I also agree that it's a very good and inspiring quote. Is the quote by any chance?

Quote

If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.... What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena.

Quote

Sometimes my friends and I have this thing where we say "I'm sooo going to hell for saying that! But you know what? All the cool people are there! Jimmy Hendrix, John Lennon, basically every good musician ever, plus all the great authors, and let's not forget Ghandi. How bad could hell be if all the greatest people are there?"

Seriously, who wants to spend an eternity in church? At least in Islam you get 72 virgins when you die. I can't remember who said it, but there was a saying that went something like 'Heaven for the climate, hell for the culture." I wonder how appealing would the Christian heaven would be to people if there was no hell, especially in modern times where the Christian heaven just seems kind of dull. I'm reminded of this video: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=q-EYqSEFOSs

This post has been edited by Neon Genesis: 03 June 2009 - 08:45 AM

[Kyle]

I'm not as eloquent as some of the other members, but here is my take on Hell.

After really reading the bible, I don't want to know that god. Therefore, if I am wrong, send me to hell. I guess I've "embraced" the concept (but I'm more confident in my belief than the xians who take Pascal's wager)

[Jabbrwokk]

Franko47, on Jun 3 2009, 12:14 AM, said:

It is the final insanity of the religious mind, or perhaps a secret belief that in the end their God is insane, and so we'd better humour him.

I think you are absolutely correct about this. I don't know how else people can spout the loving god crap out one side of their mouth and "turn or burn" from the other. And they can't avoid it, because it's all there in the bible.

People either choose not to think about it, or like you say, secretly harbour fears that god is nuts and just explain it away with "his ways are not our ways."

But we're created in his image, so they are.

[trekker]

I’m reminded of this scene in Monty Python’s “The Meaning of Life” where a Catholic man, who has an innumerable amount of children in his living room, informs them of some bad news. He sadly tells them, “Children, God has blessed us so much that we can’t afford to keep you. If the Catholic Church would let me wear one of those things on my John Thomas, we wouldn’t have this problem. I’m sorry, but I’m afraid it’s medical experiments for the lot of you.”

The children, not wanting to be sold, look at one another in astonishment and quickly try to come up with ways to prevent the family from getting any larger. One young boy asks, “Couldn’t you have your balls cut off?”

The man replies, “Oh, no, Nigel, God would see through such a cheap trick as that. Besides, what we do to ourselves, we do to Him.”

(It’s definitely funnier on film than it is in prose)

But I think that this scene also points to a principle that most Christians just want to avoid; what God (if he exists) might do to us, he also does to himself. According to the biblical legend, we are all created “in the image of God.” God cannot simply wash his hands of his creation, through them into everlasting fire, and then walk away unaffected. Despite the biblical claims, real life just doesn’t work that way. When anything that we have created is harmed or destroyed, part of us is also harmed or dies with it.

If one of my children should die, part of me would die also. That’s just how relationships work. And if I ever willingly harmed one of my children, then not only would I no longer be worthy of being a father, I wouldn’t be worth being called a human.

I don’t think God exists. But if he does…and if he ever was to cast the majority of people that he has created into some kind of everlasting torment…then whatever God is, he is no father, he is no god worth worshipping. He would be the devil himself.

trekker (formerly idic)