The Ark Of The Covenant

[Abiyoyo]

Okay. I have been researching more into early Christianity, and mainly the divinity of Christ. Christian theology says that God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all of one essence. During the Councils throughout early Christianity, the opposing side, Gnostic, and also Arianism were the debaters to what we know today as, Orthodox Christianity.

 

My point of topic for this thread is the Kebra Nagast. I ran across this read, when doing my research, and I had sort of an epiphany. This book is an Ethiopian heart sake, and is held into high degree religiously to this day, and apart of the Oriental Orthodox Church (Ethiopian Orthodox Church).

 

The book speaks about Solomon and The Ark of the Covenant of Israel. Supposedly, the Ark is contained within a church known as, Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion. The story is that Solomon had relations with the Queen of Sheba, had a son named Menelik I, who took the Ark back with him to his mother. Today the monk of this church is the only one allowed to enter the area of the Ark of the Covenant, to offer prayers, etc. Also, there was a story that spoke of all the monks having died earlier than normal, having cataracts formed in their eyes from the light from the Ark of the Covenant.

 

Now, we also have the Muslim side, and The Dome of the Rock. They believe that during the Babylonian conquest of Israel, the Ark was lowered into secret tunnels by Levites, and it's current location is unknown; also excavation anywhere near the Dome of Rock is strictly monitored and mostly prohibited. Now, on the Muslim side, not much mention is available about the Ark of the Covenant, but that the Rock within the Dome is where the Holy of Hollies rested; and is the sole reason for the warring between Jews and Muslims for centuries.

 

So here is my thought, What if the Jews and Muslims are all wrong? What if the Ark of the Covenant is still on Earth, in Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and they have another knowledge of Christ's essence, and the Ark of the Covenant.

 

Here are some points of topic to consider:

 

1) The Ethiopian Orthodox Church were formed because of the disputes in the Council of Chalcedon, of Christ's divinity. This point was held until 2001 when discussions with the Roman Catholic church ended in agreeing that there differences where only in terminology of the past.

 

2) This church holds non-canonical books as canonical, i.e. Book of Enoch.

3) The church the Ark of the covenant, within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church; is proclaimed to be a present artifact, and is guarded by monk for the remainder of that monk's natural life.

4)If the Ark of the Covenant is really in this church, then the joke is not on God. See, if God put things in order for the Ark to be moved to Ethiopia, then the rest of the destruction of Israel makes sense Biblically, as well as God's precursor warnings to the Jews to turn back to Him.

5) The Jews and the Muslims are worshiping and warring over a rock, that something Holy sat on? That something Holy isn't even there anymore, and is in another church.

6) The Ethiopian Orthodox Church would be the True Christian Church, as it has the belief in Jesus Christ, and the Ark of the Covenant.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Shyone]

 

What are your thoughts?

I've read their claims and found them difficult to swallow. If you research it, you will see that they won't show you the ark and won't allow anyone to photograph it.

 

On 25 June 2009, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Ethiopia, Abuna Paulos, said he would announce to the world the next day the unveiling of the Ark of the Covenant, which he said had been kept safe and secure in a church in Axum, Ethiopia. The following day, on 26 June 2009, the patriarch announced that he would not unveil the Ark after all, but that instead he could attest to its current status.

 

And the press release.

http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/ethiopian-ark-of-the-covenant-not-to-be-revealed-after-all/

 

It reminds me of a childhood friend that said, "I found the original Jim Bowie Knife in the desert, but I lost it."

 

The "Ark" has become a national symbol and is now deeply entwined in their politics.

 

Take the whole thing with a giant grain of salt.

[Abiyoyo]

 

What are your thoughts?

I've read their claims and found them difficult to swallow. If you research it, you will see that they won't show you the ark and won't allow anyone to photograph it.

 

On 25 June 2009, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Ethiopia, Abuna Paulos, said he would announce to the world the next day the unveiling of the Ark of the Covenant, which he said had been kept safe and secure in a church in Axum, Ethiopia. The following day, on 26 June 2009, the patriarch announced that he would not unveil the Ark after all, but that instead he could attest to its current status.

 

And the press release.

http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/ethiopian-ark-of-the-covenant-not-to-be-revealed-after-all/

 

It reminds me of a childhood friend that said, "I found the original Jim Bowie Knife in the desert, but I lost it."

 

The "Ark" has become a national symbol and is now deeply entwined in their politics.

 

Take the whole thing with a giant grain of salt.

 

Yeah, I saw that in Wikipedia. My next thought was this. Why would the Pope care to incorporate them, or accept them? Why did Paulos decide not to unveil it? Does a monk really give away his/her whole life to guard something that isn't even there?

 

What if it was known all along that the Ark was there by the Roman Catholics? They had the Ark, and the Roman Catholics had Peter. The Jews and Muslims have a rock, and the physical house of David, Solomon. I wonder if when Christ died, all this came into fruition, causing Rome to place Christianity at it's official religion. According to the legend, the Ethiopians had the Ark the whole time, since Solomon. The Jewish community in Rome then had nothing other than tradition, a few artifacts, and the Book of the Law, if recall correctly.

 

When Christ came about, and the ministry afterward, resulted in the Councils to take place. Maybe they made them aware that they had the Ark of the Covenant, and then Christ went from a following, to the Messiah; because the Ark of the Covenant sealed the deal to let them know that the God of Israel is real.

 

I have another thought too. Maybe the Vatican is and always has been a front, for possible enemies that seek to destroy the church and take the Ark of the Covenant. It could possibly explain why the Roman Catholics always remained ritualistic. If you look into the World Council of Churches history, you will see that the Roman Catholics, though never becoming a member; have always been around and overlooked certain things.

 

Something to think about.

[Shyone]

 

Yeah, I saw that in Wikipedia. My next thought was this. Why would the Pope care to incorporate them, or accept them? Why did Paulos decide not to unveil it? Does a monk really give away his/her whole life to guard something that isn't even there?

I think there's "something there", I just don't think it's the original ark of the covenant. But until it is "unveiled", it's all speculation. There are replica arks in many of those churches, and I suspect "pious fraud" and they won't unveil it because it will be seen to be fraud.

 

The reason for not revealing it is probably a very human one. The ark is a political symbol, it brings wealth to the church, and it raises that particular church to national and even international prominence. People have given their lives for much less.

 

The rest of your post is speculation based on the actual existence of the ark, and it presumes a lot about other things that may be mythical as well.

 

Like the following:

 

Maybe they made them aware that they had the Ark of the Covenant, and then Christ went from a following, to the Messiah; because the Ark of the Covenant sealed the deal to let them know that the God of Israel is real.

 

Something to think about.

Something to be really skeptical about until there is more information, but given the history, I'm beginning to think that it's little more than a fictional plot to keep the current regime in Ethiopia in power.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Something to be really skeptical about until there is more information, but given the history, I'm beginning to think that it's little more than a fictional plot to keep the current regime in Ethiopia in power.

 

Doubt it. The only reason religion is apart of power there is because religion was apart of the start of the country as a country, or power of any sort originally, with Menelik I becoming ruler.

 

Also note that it wasn't a turn over as in other formations, but a descendant from the Queen. The religion changed, but the power from royalty didn't.

[Abiyoyo]

There are replica arks in many of those churches, and I suspect "pious fraud" and they won't unveil it because it will be seen to be fraud.

 

 

 

Or, ...it is the real McCoy and they are being cautious as to the aftermath of everyone in America, which would mean the world, including 3 billion Islamic and Christians; having the knowledge that the Ark of the living God was at there church. Reservations? I couldn't see money or power being of any significance to them if it were real, probably Armageddon would be the significant factor of thought.

[Shyone]

There are replica arks in many of those churches, and I suspect "pious fraud" and they won't unveil it because it will be seen to be fraud.

 

 

 

Or, ...it is the real McCoy and they are being cautious as to the aftermath of everyone in America, which would mean the world, including 3 billion Islamic and Christians; having the knowledge that the Ark of the living God was at there church. Reservations? I couldn't see money or power being of any significance to them if it were real, probably Armageddon would be the significant factor of thought.

Hypothetically, and this is really speculation along your lines, if they did have the ark of the covenant, what would it prove? It would be interesting and support something, but not necessarily the existence of God.

 

My own suspicion is that the tablets mentioned in the old testament were probably baked clay tablets (hence the need for the fire in the bush to dry them out). Most of the 10 commandments can be found in ancient Babylonian or even Sumerian tablets because their laws are the basis for the Hebrew laws.

 

Granting that they put some tablets into a box, there are no special powers (unlike the Indiana Jones movie). It would be an artifact; nothing more.

 

But the mystery surrounding this is so similar to the expeditions to find Noah's Ark that it is sounding more and more like a people convinced of their own importance in history and supporting it with untestable claims.

 

Christians are probably used to that, but for someone that deals with reality it is insufficient to even bother thinking about.

[Guest Davka]

The amount of power and money that would come with the unveiling of the true Ark of the Covenant would be staggering. Add to this the hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of new converts who would see this as proof of the Bible's veracity, and you have an overwhelmingly compelling set of reasons to put the ark on public display.

 

Balance that against - what possible reasons to keep it secret? If it were real, someone would have leaked it by now. Either a legitimate member of the church, or a treasure-seeker infiltrating the church. Keeping something like this secret is an absurd concept. It would be like finding the Fountain of Youth and keeping it a secret. Not gonna happen.

[mwc]

6) The Ethiopian Orthodox Church would be the True Christian Church, as it has the belief in Jesus Christ, and the Ark of the Covenant.

So it "wins" because it has the most magic?

 

Well, the RCC has some dead apostles, some stuff from Mithra as well as Egypt and who knows what else? They've got all sorts of junk and beliefs lying around that place. They probably even have the bones of the priest who molested Isaac while Abraham was busy sacrificing that goat.

 

But lets say there is an ark in Ethiopia. How does anyone prove it to be the "real" ark? You can't touch it. You can't test it. So it's just a box from a distance. I guess we could "accidentally" push someone onto it and see if they die but it would be best if this person isn't some highly superstitious idiot so the experience alone doesn't do them in. Could you identify the thing by sight? Could you identify a fraud by sight? I thought the one in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" looked pretty good. Seemed legit. If it didn't look like that maybe it's a fraud? Or maybe that's what we're supposed to think? Maybe if it looks like that one it's a fraud? I guess we're back to the "push" test I just mentioned.

 

Then the question would be if anything is inside it. Stuff was supposed to be inside it. But then again others didn't seem to recall that. It's like sometimes the Torah (and maybe other things) were in there but other times they were just sort of near there but not really inside. Until one day the holy of holies was empty. I guess the idea that the actual scrolls of Moses were in the ark but the fact you couldn't open the ark finally dawned on everyone that you could never access the stupid things so they somehow popped up outside the ark where they could be read. I bet that really pissed off the high priest since it was probably really great being the all-powerful Oz for awhile and just spitting out stupid laws that no one could confirm or deny since they were "tucked away" inside the untouchable ark.

 

Yep. Gotta love the ark.

 

mwc

[Vixentrox]

I have the One True Cross in my shed. I'll it to yah.

[Shyone]

I have the One True Cross in my shed. I'll it to yah.

I'll match your One True Cross with a vial of Jesus blood, and I'll raise you a bone from His little finger.

 

(I found the body, but I'm not going to tell anyone where it is)

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Yep. Gotta love the ark.

 

mwc

 

MWC, So, what's your point again? I started a thread on the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia, one of the few guesses to where it could be (2 actually); compared with the Kebra Nagast in the Ethiopian background. The point was, as a theological question, How would this change modern Christian Theology if correct?

 

If I was debating the Ark of the Covenant alone, I would've posted this in the science section.

[Abiyoyo]

I have the One True Cross in my shed. I'll it to yah.

 

 

I have the One True Cross in my shed. I'll it to yah.

I'll match your One True Cross with a vial of Jesus blood, and I'll raise you a bone from His little finger.

 

(I found the body, but I'm not going to tell anyone where it is)

 

I thought General Theological Issues was a more, stay on subject, or don't participate thread??

[Ouroboros]

I have the rock David used to kill Goliath.

 

But Yoyo is right. Keep the thread on topic.

[oddbird1963]

I don't think the Ark of the Covenant could ever be verified as THE ark of the covenant. There's no way to get that specific with an archaeological object like that, located so far from its supposed place of origin.

 

What "theological" truths would such a find affirm, anyway?

[dagnarus]

 

 

Yep. Gotta love the ark.

 

mwc

 

MWC, So, what's your point again? I started a thread on the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia, one of the few guesses to where it could be (2 actually); compared with the Kebra Nagast in the Ethiopian background. The point was, as a theological question, How would this change modern Christian Theology if correct?

 

If I was debating the Ark of the Covenant alone, I would've posted this in the science section.

 

Could you please explain why the ark of the covenant would have anything to do with modern Christian theology?

 

I don't personally see what Christian's would care about it's location either way, except out of historical curiosity. After all it's for an old covenant anyway.

 

On a side note. Assuming that king Solomon existed and that the bible is divinely inspired, I doubt that it wouldn't have recorded a little thing like Solomon just giving away "the Ark of the fucking Covenant", I mean from the reading the OT the Jews took that shit pretty seriously.

[OpheliaGinger]

I have heard some pretty strong arguments of the queen of Sheba not being from modern day Ethiopia--more like in Yemen.

[Vixentrox]

I have the One True Cross in my shed. I'll it to yah.

 

 

I have the One True Cross in my shed. I'll it to yah.

I'll match your One True Cross with a vial of Jesus blood, and I'll raise you a bone from His little finger.

 

(I found the body, but I'm not going to tell anyone where it is)

 

I thought General Theological Issues was a more, stay on subject, or don't participate thread??

It is one topic. The Ark is just as silly as any of those other things mentioned. Could just as easily said Merlin's staff, a shoe from Hermes, or some wine from Bacchus.

[mwc]

So here is my thought, What if the Jews and Muslims are all wrong? What if the Ark of the Covenant is still on Earth, in Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and they have another knowledge of Christ's essence, and the Ark of the Covenant.

 

Here are some points of topic to consider:

 

1) The Ethiopian Orthodox Church were formed because of the disputes in the Council of Chalcedon, of Christ's divinity. This point was held until 2001 when discussions with the Roman Catholic church ended in agreeing that there differences where only in terminology of the past.

 

2) This church holds non-canonical books as canonical, i.e. Book of Enoch.

3) The church the Ark of the covenant, within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church; is proclaimed to be a present artifact, and is guarded by monk for the remainder of that monk's natural life.

4)If the Ark of the Covenant is really in this church, then the joke is not on God. See, if God put things in order for the Ark to be moved to Ethiopia, then the rest of the destruction of Israel makes sense Biblically, as well as God's precursor warnings to the Jews to turn back to Him.

5) The Jews and the Muslims are worshiping and warring over a rock, that something Holy sat on? That something Holy isn't even there anymore, and is in another church.

6) The Ethiopian Orthodox Church would be the True Christian Church, as it has the belief in Jesus Christ, and the Ark of the Covenant.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

MWC, So, what's your point again? I started a thread on the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia, one of the few guesses to where it could be (2 actually); compared with the Kebra Nagast in the Ethiopian background. The point was, as a theological question, How would this change modern Christian Theology if correct?

Really? That was your point? I've put your two posts close together so it's easier to see and I can't see that this is your point in the first post at all.

 

I don't know. This is your hypothetical. Why don't you get the ball rolling since you don't like what we posted because the real answer to the whole "ark" question is the damn thing was melted down well over 2000 years ago.

 

mwc

[GraphicsGuy]

Considering that the Ark of the Covenant was part of the "Old Covenant" between Yahweh and the Children of Israel and Jesus is the "New Covenant" between God and humanity, finding the Ark shouldn't make a damn bit of difference to the faith.

 

However, I would guess that there would be mass pilgrimages to wherever it lies, the US and the Vatican would start WWIII over who gets to actually possess it, and Israel would go on a Palestinian killing spree so they could finally rebuild their bloody temple to house the thing.

[Skankboy]

5) The Jews and the Muslims are worshiping and warring over a rock, that something Holy sat on? That something Holy isn't even there anymore, and is in another church.

 

I think you are confused here. Jews think Jerusalem is holy because it contained the original temple (of which the wailing wall is supposedly the last remnant). The Dome of the Rock is supposed to be the sight where Mohammed ascended to heaven. Unfortunately, the 2 locations are nearly on top of each other (the Dome is actually built partially on land that once housed the original jewish temple).

 

The Jews have no interest in the "rock" other than it's part of their old temple.

[Shyone]

5) The Jews and the Muslims are worshiping and warring over a rock, that something Holy sat on? That something Holy isn't even there anymore, and is in another church.

 

I think you are confused here. Jews think Jerusalem is holy because it contained the original temple (of which the wailing wall is supposedly the last remnant). The Dome of the Rock is supposed to be the sight where Mohammed ascended to heaven. Unfortunately, the 2 locations are nearly on top of each other (the Dome is actually built partially on land that once housed the original jewish temple).

 

The Jews have no interest in the "rock" other than it's part of their old temple.

Sounds like you're almost describing the same thing.

 

Something Holy = old temple or Mohammed, or the original jewish temple. Neither one is there in a useful form so the Muslims built a new one and the Jews want the land.

 

Meh.

[mwc]

Some Jews (I'm not sure how widespread this really is) believe that the "rock" is the location of the first creation (ie. where Adam was formed before getting moved to Eden) and the place where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. I also think there's something in there about the flood but it's not coming to mind. Anyhow, it's a key location that predates the holy of holies by quite some time in the myths.

 

If it's just a matter of building temples and whatnot then I imagine there was a pagan temple there at some point prior to the Jewish ones. The Egyptians likely had something around there. Then the Romans had one there for certain. Of course the Crusaders occupied the spot and would have xianized the place so most religions have probably put down something in, on or around that rock. It's most important feature, of course, was that there was a spring that came out nearby so you could defend your fort from behind your walls for a long period of time. Now THAT'S a holy site.

 

mwc

[Skankboy]

Some Jews (I'm not sure how widespread this really is) believe that the "rock" is the location of the first creation (ie. where Adam was formed before getting moved to Eden) and the place where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. I also think there's something in there about the flood but it's not coming to mind. Anyhow, it's a key location that predates the holy of holies by quite some time in the myths.

I had not heard that before. I wonder how much of this is just trying to further justify the jewish claim to the site and how much is truly jewish tradition?

 

Back to the topic though - I have to wonder if the Ethopian church really is guarding a secret... that the supposed ark is just another form of publicity stunt to legitamize their religion and possibly increase attendance/tourism/pilgramidges.

[Abiyoyo]

5) The Jews and the Muslims are worshiping and warring over a rock, that something Holy sat on? That something Holy isn't even there anymore, and is in another church.

 

I think you are confused here. Jews think Jerusalem is holy because it contained the original temple (of which the wailing wall is supposedly the last remnant). The Dome of the Rock is supposed to be the sight where Mohammed ascended to heaven. Unfortunately, the 2 locations are nearly on top of each other (the Dome is actually built partially on land that once housed the original jewish temple).

 

The Jews have no interest in the "rock" other than it's part of their old temple.

 

The wailing wall is the closest to the rock inside, that their prayers are allowed to be prayed. The rock is where the Holy of Hollies was originally located, to which they are suppose to pray too. Now, the Muslims have exclusive rights so to speak, as they are allowed to go beside the rock and offer prayers.

 

The point is that they both pray to the Rock, or near the Rock because of what used to sit there, the Holy of Hollies. Then you have this church in the OP that says they actually have the Holy of Hollies, via the Ark of the Covenant.