Attention Christians: Doesn't It Bother You?

[Tabula Rasa]

I'd like to get the opinion of all christians who post here.

 

 

What made me de-convert from christianity, was a mix of sadness and horror at the idea that even the kindest, most loving and decent people would be eternally damned just because they didn't accept christ as their saviour. And to play devil's advocate(if you'll forgive the term) even the most wicked didn't deserve to suffer unimaginable suffering forever and ever.

 

I just couldn't accept that an all powerful God, who could do anything, would send any of his creations to eternal torment, just because they didn't worship him.(or worship him "the right way")

 

See, the thing with me, is the whole idea that God is OMNIPOTENT aka all-powerful,he can do anything, even, as I've jokingly stated, turn the sun into a giant peanut butter and jelly sandwich that still generated light and heat. So then, if humans needed guidance to know how to act right, why not come among them and teach them? Some will say this is the function Christ served.

 

Doesn't work for me. God, being all powerful would come down and give guidance to the whole world, not just a few people in Judea. He'd manifest as many incarnations of himself as necessary to give everyone the proper guidance, whether they be Persian, Roman, Greek, Babylonian, and even the as yet undiscovered North , Central and South Americans. And all at the same time.

 

 

So with that said, here's the problems I have with Yahweh/Jesus, the god of the bible.

 

So according to Genesis, Yahweh creates Adam and Eve and puts them in the garden. Then we get to how this whole mess supposedly started which is,The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

Now there are some who will say "That was a test of obedience." But if Yahweh knew what they'd do(which is eat the fruit) and thereby damn themselves, why put the temptation in front of them and then tell them "No you can't have this!"

 

The serpent is blamed for Adam and Eve's fall, but I think it falls squarely on Yahweh's shoulders. He created the tree,and gave the fruit it's special properties in bestowing the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, by creating the tree and tempting Adam and Eve(yes you read it right, I said TEMPTING) into eating it by saying they couldn't have it.(He knew they couldn't resist, he made them with "God given curiosity") It was Yahweh who truly created evil.

 

 

Now some of you will mention how the sacrifice of Christ was Yahweh's way of redeeming man.

Well, it actually made things worse.Things were made much stricter. You either "got saved" ensuring you entered heaven, or you didn't which meant you went to hell aka eternal damnation. (And the different ideas of what constituted salvation is enough to potentially drive the most devout follower insane, wondering if they were "truly saved".)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to Christ's death on the cross, the worst thing Yahweh would do to the disobedient and "wicked" was to smite them with disease, famine, burning hail, and or violent death. His anger ended at the grave. But christianity changed all that to unending wrath.

 

 

So there it is. How can an all powerful God, who created the billions of stars and galaxies that make up the vast universe be so petty and vindictive, he'd create a system where you either bow down to him in blind, unquestioning slavery, or suffer eternal torment?

[Kathlene]

Okay Tab, Im gonna be brave and be the first to answer this calling out. Dont set me on fire straight away.!

 

You make these claims that if God were all powerful and all knowing then why doesnt he just in essence skip hell and let everyone go to heaven? Is that what the underlying theme is in your post?

 

Well my viewpoint I guess is..does God want to control us as robots or come to Him because we want to?

If God wanted us to all go to heaven cause he wants all His children there, then sure He could do that if He wanted to. Would that be because each and every one of you chose to go there? Would you want to be forced to love someone and worship him, or do it because you actually do love God? Or because by default we are like robots and get to be in His presence regardless.?

 

So two things immediately spring to mind here.

1. This is a huge debatable topic in here. Our sin. If you dont believe in sin, then you dont believe in God, then you dont believe or choose to want to be with him.God is holy and cannot be in the presence of sin. If you have sin in your heart and you are not washed clean by the forgiveness of those sins and covered by the sacrifice of Jesus your sin is still there in your heart.(okay...yes I can hear the shrieking and indignation coming out in howls and yelps here.)

 

2.So now if you want that do not go to jail free ticket, I guess you have to come to grips that a) we were not created as robots. God wants us to freely love him and worship him.(Now I hear the ultimatum, worship me or die howls.)

People this is not an ultimatum worship me or die scenario. This is a come to me and live, I love you, I want to be with you, see I set up a system where your sins are washed away, your hearts can be clean in my presence type thing.

 

If you decide...now read this...YOU decide that loving God or worshipping him is not your cup of tea, or you dont have enough evidence, or whatever it is that you cannot believe in him, God says ok then, and it breaks his heart. He will not violate his created beings and force you into heaven to be with him. He wants YOU to choose Him. If you dont choose him, he isnt saying well bugger off then. He is just saying, thats really sad, however when you die there will be a place that you go to and it is a place where I cannot be because it is a place of sin and darkness. I am life and I need to be around people who have my life in them. Oh I hear it again now..(but wait! why should I spend all eternity in a place just becasue of a few small misshaps??).

 

Well God like I said before is HOLY. He created us, we sin. We are separated from him because we are NOT robots. We have a mind and free will. We can choose to be with God or we can choose to not be with God. It is OUR choice. He will not force you. So now we are back to the circular argument of sin yet again.

 

I think recognising our sin is a beautiful thing. Firstly it does indeed show that we are human and we have weaknessess and frailties. Now I hear you ask, if God created us, why is sin in the world in the first place? Why arent we all perfect? Well, like before, we are not created to be robots and to be pure perfect human beings. We were created with a heart, body and soul. For one reason or another, sin is in our nature. So why you ask then is it our fault that we should be separated from God because of something He created? Well when you have a child you want them to love you because they want to. God gave us free will and in doing so took the risk that we would turn our backs on him and live in a different way. That is the risk of love. In love God redeemed the world, and it is only by love that sin and darkness is conquered. Love is the answer.

 

How so? Sacrifice. Gods sacrifice to us, and our sacrifice to Him. What is our sacrifice? To die to our sins and ego and accept that we live the wrong way, and always probably will and we need a redeemer. God is Holy and for whatever reason he has stated that to be in His presence we cannot have that sinful nature in us. It needs to be atoned for. Our role is to say sorry and ask to be forgiven. Thats a huge ask of anyone. In return we get Gods righteousness. No that does not mean that we will never sin again.

 

It means that we are open and willing to have God work in our lives for our good to change us and shape us. To give us growth as a human being, in healing in touching our lives, and for us in return to touch other people's lives in love. That walk is a long arduous walk. It can often be filled with frustration, pain, suffering. It also yields patience, wisdom, growth, maturity. It can also be a walk of deep peace and rest. I do know however that even I and many others in here didnt always experience that. I walked away from God initially through anger and rebellion because my life wasnt going the way I thought it SHOULD. Now I have learnt that Gods ways are so much higher than my own, even when I cant always see it. There comes the blind trust in those times of growing.

 

Now after my very long convuluted post there it will give a lot for people to get angry and backlash me on here. I accept that. Recognising and dying to your own ego and self is never an easy thing to do. If it was, I am sure more people would be charging down the gates of heaven itself to be with God. However, our sinful prideful selves will always rear its ugly head and say NO! I am quite capable of living on this planet in my own selfish ways, I do not need God at all. Heck I dont even believe he exists or He is even there, so why should I be sent to a place for all eternity for it?? Do you not see the inconsistency of that statement. How can you be upset for going somewhere, when you are the one making that choice anyway? You are not a robot. God will not force you. If you want to live all your days in darkness and sin, go for it. Thats a big pill to swallow isnt it? It is however your choice. God has made the way for you to not live in that sin.

 

Ok...now that I have come off as a stark raving lunatic, I will leave you with an excerpt from a book I am reading at the moment. Just to add more food for thought, and fuel to the fire.

 

This is from the novel Light in my darkest night, by Catherine Marshall.

 

"I knew that these were habits; the fact was, I had never come to grips with this very question. Was Jesus of Nazareth, in fact God? And now, when I tried, there were mountains of logic that halted me. I started to map them for Catherine, but she stopped me.

 

"You're trying to approach Christianity through your mind John," she said. It simply cant be done that way.

"Its one of the pecurliarities of Christianity, she went on. that you cannot come to it through intellect. You have to be willing to experience it first, to do something you don't understand- then, oddly enough, understanding often follows. And its just what Im hoping for you today, that without understanding, without even knowing why, you say yes to Christ."

 

So for all of you out there who love logic I think this will very much offend you. My apologies for it,. I believe christianity needs to be approached this way, because science and logic dont deal in the world of sin and reconciliation. It can only be dealt with through and by your heart.

 

So there it is. My complete coming out as a christian on these forums. I cringingly await all the backlash and harshness of the ensuing responses. Tab asked for us christians to respond, and I tried as best as I could.

Thankyou.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Okay Tab, Im gonna be brave and be the first to answer this calling out. Dont set me on fire straight away.!

 

You make these claims that if God were all powerful and all knowing then why doesnt he just in essence skip hell and let everyone go to heaven? Is that what the underlying theme is in your post?

 

Well my viewpoint I guess is..does God want to control us as robots or come to Him because we want to?

If God wanted us to all go to heaven cause he wants all His children there, then sure He could do that if He wanted to. Would that be because each and every one of you chose to go there? Would you want to be forced to love someone and worship him, or do it because you actually do love God? Or because by default we are like robots and get to be in His presence regardless.?

 

So two things immediately spring to mind here.

1. This is a huge debatable topic in here. Our sin. If you dont believe in sin, then you dont believe in God, then you dont believe or choose to want to be with him.God is holy and cannot be in the presence of sin. If you have sin in your heart and you are not washed clean by the forgiveness of those sins and covered by the sacrifice of Jesus your sin is still there in your heart.(okay...yes I can hear the shrieking and indignation coming out in howls and yelps here.)

 

2.So now if you want that do not go to jail free ticket, I guess you have to come to grips that a) we were not created as robots. God wants us to freely love him and worship him.(Now I hear the ultimatum, worship me or die howls.)

People this is not an ultimatum worship me or die scenario. This is a come to me and live, I love you, I want to be with you, see I set up a system where your sins are washed away, your hearts can be clean in my presence type thing.

 

If you decide...now read this...YOU decide that loving God or worshipping him is not your cup of tea, or you dont have enough evidence, or whatever it is that you cannot believe in him, God says ok then, and it breaks his heart. He will not violate his created beings and force you into heaven to be with him. He wants YOU to choose Him. If you dont choose him, he isnt saying well bugger off then. He is just saying, thats really sad, however when you die there will be a place that you go to and it is a place where I cannot be because it is a place of sin and darkness. I am life and I need to be around people who have my life in them. Oh I hear it again now..(but wait! why should I spend all eternity in a place just becasue of a few small misshaps??).

 

Well God like I said before is HOLY. He created us, we sin. We are separated from him because we are NOT robots. We have a mind and free will. We can choose to be with God or we can choose to not be with God. It is OUR choice. He will not force you. So now we are back to the circular argument of sin yet again.

 

I think recognising our sin is a beautiful thing. Firstly it does indeed show that we are human and we have weaknessess and frailties. Now I hear you ask, if God created us, why is sin in the world in the first place? Why arent we all perfect? Well, like before, we are not created to be robots and to be pure perfect human beings. We were created with a heart, body and soul. For one reason or another, sin is in our nature. So why you ask then is it our fault that we should be separated from God because of something He created? Well when you have a child you want them to love you because they want to. God gave us free will and in doing so took the risk that we would turn our backs on him and live in a different way. That is the risk of love. In love God redeemed the world, and it is only by love that sin and darkness is conquered. Love is the answer.

 

How so? Sacrifice. Gods sacrifice to us, and our sacrifice to Him. What is our sacrifice? To die to our sins and ego and accept that we live the wrong way, and always probably will and we need a redeemer. God is Holy and for whatever reason he has stated that to be in His presence we cannot have that sinful nature in us. It needs to be atoned for. Our role is to say sorry and ask to be forgiven. Thats a huge ask of anyone. In return we get Gods righteousness. No that does not mean that we will never sin again.

 

It means that we are open and willing to have God work in our lives for our good to change us and shape us. To give us growth as a human being, in healing in touching our lives, and for us in return to touch other people's lives in love. That walk is a long arduous walk. It can often be filled with frustration, pain, suffering. It also yields patience, wisdom, growth, maturity. It can also be a walk of deep peace and rest. I do know however that even I and many others in here didnt always experience that. I walked away from God initially through anger and rebellion because my life wasnt going the way I thought it SHOULD. Now I have learnt that Gods ways are so much higher than my own, even when I cant always see it. There comes the blind trust in those times of growing.

 

Now after my very long convuluted post there it will give a lot for people to get angry and backlash me on here. I accept that. Recognising and dying to your own ego and self is never an easy thing to do. If it was, I am sure more people would be charging down the gates of heaven itself to be with God. However, our sinful prideful selves will always rear its ugly head and say NO! I am quite capable of living on this planet in my own selfish ways, I do not need God at all. Heck I dont even believe he exists or He is even there, so why should I be sent to a place for all eternity for it?? Do you not see the inconsistency of that statement. How can you be upset for going somewhere, when you are the one making that choice anyway? You are not a robot. God will not force you. If you want to live all your days in darkness and sin, go for it. Thats a big pill to swallow isnt it? It is however your choice. God has made the way for you to not live in that sin.

 

Ok...now that I have come off as a stark raving lunatic, I will leave you with an excerpt from a book I am reading at the moment. Just to add more food for thought, and fuel to the fire.

 

This is from the novel Light in my darkest night, by Catherine Marshall.

 

"I knew that these were habits; the fact was, I had never come to grips with this very question. Was Jesus of Nazareth, in fact God? And now, when I tried, there were mountains of logic that halted me. I started to map them for Catherine, but she stopped me.

 

"You're trying to approach Christianity through your mind John," she said. It simply cant be done that way.

"Its one of the pecurliarities of Christianity, she went on. that you cannot come to it through intellect. You have to be willing to experience it first, to do something you don't understand- then, oddly enough, understanding often follows. And its just what Im hoping for you today, that without understanding, without even knowing why, you say yes to Christ."

 

So for all of you out there who love logic I think this will very much offend you. My apologies for it,. I believe christianity needs to be approached this way, because science and logic dont deal in the world of sin and reconciliation. It can only be dealt with through and by your heart.

 

So there it is. My complete coming out as a christian on these forums. I cringingly await all the backlash and harshness of the ensuing responses. Tab asked for us christians to respond, and I tried as best as I could.

Thankyou.

 

Im gonna try to be short. I will just point out your mistakes.

 

The Sin concept is interdependent from the god concept, in its most general sense. One could be a deist(who believes in a impersonal god, and there be no such thing as sin). This is heresy in the Christian view, but I think you can see what I mean

 

On point 2 I think you miss the point. We could hypothetically have free will and not have sin.

If there is free will in heaven which is a place of no sin, why couldn't that be earth. That would solve both problems unless of course we are slaves in heaven.

 

Why does the heart have to be dissociated(which is what you are trying to do) from the intellect.

Would it not be fair to say, that heart is motivation, and intellect is the execution. Meaning that the stuff that we get from the heart drives our intellect.

And without are reasoning abilities(which the human heart as emotion plays a role in) how can we decide Christianity is true. It may be what one would call metaphysical reasoning but reasoning nonetheless.

 

Hope to get a rebuttal kathlene

 

[Tabula Rasa]

Fear not Kathlene, I'll be gentle.

 

A point or two to consider: Why should humanity have to suffer for Adam and Eve's sin? Why not just punish them? Or why couldn't he just forgive them outright.(He could easily have made as if they'd never eaten the fruit at all being the "All Being Master of Time Space and Dimension.") Most people think the idea of punishing children for their parents sake is horrible. By that reasoning, isn't Yahweh doing the same thing?

 

You say God is holy and can't stand the presence of sin. Holy has another meaning, besides the one we've been taught. The original hebrew word is kaddoshwhich means other.

Essentially, God is transcendent, completely above humanity and creation.(Which may make my next statement confusing.)

 

If God can't stand the presence of sin, but yet is omnipresent(everywhere at once), why isn't every non believer on this site and in the world dead?

 

Also, the idea that God can't stand the presence of sin makes it sound like he has a weakness aka how Superman is weakened by kryptonite. God is all powerful correct? He created the universe according to the Bible. Then surely he can be where sin is. Christ if he existed, lived in the human world, and associated with prostitutes, gamblers and tax collectors, those considered sinful. He was supposedly God in human form, but none of them died from his wrath.

 

Last but not least:Let's say that people who don't believe in christ should be punished? Why should their punishment last forever? According to the old Zoroastrian faith, sinners go to hell, not to suffer forever,but so their souls are purified so they can eventually go to be with the righteous with Ahura Mazda(Their God) in the Hall of Happiness forever.

Or why not this? Why should the unsaved go to hell at all? If they choose not to believe in and worship christ, why not let their souls simply cease to exist, upon death aka oblivion, why eternal torment?

 

I'll try to come back to this for further commentary, but this is what I have for now.

 

Peace in the name of

She-Who-Does-Not-Damn

Tab

[TheTruthShallSetUsFree]

Okay Tab, Im gonna be brave and be the first to answer this calling out. Dont set me on fire straight away.!

 

You make these claims that if God were all powerful and all knowing then why doesnt he just in essence skip hell and let everyone go to heaven? Is that what the underlying theme is in your post?

 

Well my viewpoint I guess is..does God want to control us as robots or come to Him because we want to?

If God wanted us to all go to heaven cause he wants all His children there, then sure He could do that if He wanted to. Would that be because each and every one of you chose to go there? Would you want to be forced to love someone and worship him, or do it because you actually do love God? Or because by default we are like robots and get to be in His presence regardless.?

 

So two things immediately spring to mind here.

1. This is a huge debatable topic in here. Our sin. If you dont believe in sin, then you dont believe in God, then you dont believe or choose to want to be with him.God is holy and cannot be in the presence of sin. If you have sin in your heart and you are not washed clean by the forgiveness of those sins and covered by the sacrifice of Jesus your sin is still there in your heart.(okay...yes I can hear the shrieking and indignation coming out in howls and yelps here.)

 

2.So now if you want that do not go to jail free ticket, I guess you have to come to grips that a) we were not created as robots. God wants us to freely love him and worship him.(Now I hear the ultimatum, worship me or die howls.)

People this is not an ultimatum worship me or die scenario. This is a come to me and live, I love you, I want to be with you, see I set up a system where your sins are washed away, your hearts can be clean in my presence type thing.

 

If you decide...now read this...YOU decide that loving God or worshipping him is not your cup of tea, or you dont have enough evidence, or whatever it is that you cannot believe in him, God says ok then, and it breaks his heart. He will not violate his created beings and force you into heaven to be with him. He wants YOU to choose Him. If you dont choose him, he isnt saying well bugger off then. He is just saying, thats really sad, however when you die there will be a place that you go to and it is a place where I cannot be because it is a place of sin and darkness. I am life and I need to be around people who have my life in them. Oh I hear it again now..(but wait! why should I spend all eternity in a place just becasue of a few small misshaps??).

 

Well God like I said before is HOLY. He created us, we sin. We are separated from him because we are NOT robots. We have a mind and free will. We can choose to be with God or we can choose to not be with God. It is OUR choice. He will not force you. So now we are back to the circular argument of sin yet again.

 

I think recognising our sin is a beautiful thing. Firstly it does indeed show that we are human and we have weaknessess and frailties. Now I hear you ask, if God created us, why is sin in the world in the first place? Why arent we all perfect? Well, like before, we are not created to be robots and to be pure perfect human beings. We were created with a heart, body and soul. For one reason or another, sin is in our nature. So why you ask then is it our fault that we should be separated from God because of something He created? Well when you have a child you want them to love you because they want to. God gave us free will and in doing so took the risk that we would turn our backs on him and live in a different way. That is the risk of love. In love God redeemed the world, and it is only by love that sin and darkness is conquered. Love is the answer.

 

How so? Sacrifice. Gods sacrifice to us, and our sacrifice to Him. What is our sacrifice? To die to our sins and ego and accept that we live the wrong way, and always probably will and we need a redeemer. God is Holy and for whatever reason he has stated that to be in His presence we cannot have that sinful nature in us. It needs to be atoned for. Our role is to say sorry and ask to be forgiven. Thats a huge ask of anyone. In return we get Gods righteousness. No that does not mean that we will never sin again.

 

It means that we are open and willing to have God work in our lives for our good to change us and shape us. To give us growth as a human being, in healing in touching our lives, and for us in return to touch other people's lives in love. That walk is a long arduous walk. It can often be filled with frustration, pain, suffering. It also yields patience, wisdom, growth, maturity. It can also be a walk of deep peace and rest. I do know however that even I and many others in here didnt always experience that. I walked away from God initially through anger and rebellion because my life wasnt going the way I thought it SHOULD. Now I have learnt that Gods ways are so much higher than my own, even when I cant always see it. There comes the blind trust in those times of growing.

 

Now after my very long convuluted post there it will give a lot for people to get angry and backlash me on here. I accept that. Recognising and dying to your own ego and self is never an easy thing to do. If it was, I am sure more people would be charging down the gates of heaven itself to be with God. However, our sinful prideful selves will always rear its ugly head and say NO! I am quite capable of living on this planet in my own selfish ways, I do not need God at all. Heck I dont even believe he exists or He is even there, so why should I be sent to a place for all eternity for it?? Do you not see the inconsistency of that statement. How can you be upset for going somewhere, when you are the one making that choice anyway? You are not a robot. God will not force you. If you want to live all your days in darkness and sin, go for it. Thats a big pill to swallow isnt it? It is however your choice. God has made the way for you to not live in that sin.

 

Ok...now that I have come off as a stark raving lunatic, I will leave you with an excerpt from a book I am reading at the moment. Just to add more food for thought, and fuel to the fire.

 

This is from the novel Light in my darkest night, by Catherine Marshall.

 

"I knew that these were habits; the fact was, I had never come to grips with this very question. Was Jesus of Nazareth, in fact God? And now, when I tried, there were mountains of logic that halted me. I started to map them for Catherine, but she stopped me.

 

"You're trying to approach Christianity through your mind John," she said. It simply cant be done that way.

"Its one of the pecurliarities of Christianity, she went on. that you cannot come to it through intellect. You have to be willing to experience it first, to do something you don't understand- then, oddly enough, understanding often follows. And its just what Im hoping for you today, that without understanding, without even knowing why, you say yes to Christ."

 

So for all of you out there who love logic I think this will very much offend you. My apologies for it,. I believe christianity needs to be approached this way, because science and logic dont deal in the world of sin and reconciliation. It can only be dealt with through and by your heart.

 

So there it is. My complete coming out as a christian on these forums. I cringingly await all the backlash and harshness of the ensuing responses. Tab asked for us christians to respond, and I tried as best as I could.

Thankyou.

 

 

You willingly admit that you are not thinking logically. If Adam and Eve were without sin before eating of the fruit, if they were perfect beings, then they had no knowledge of right from wrong. Even with God telling them not to eat the fruit, they would have no concept of consequences. Long story short, it was a set up. God created sin, and wants an army of robots to ignore logic and reason to bow at his feet. Your God is selfish and egocentric and narcissistic. You're right. I'm not a robot. But you are.

[Vixentrox]

Coercing someone into loving you isn't love. Yet your demon beast of a god does that. Love me....OR ELSE! Accept my rules....OR ELSE! Accept my "gift"...OR ELSE!!!

 

God can be in the presence of sin. If you accept he is Omni-present then by default he is everywhere. God was in the presence of the devil wasn't he when he made a bet with Job?

 

God's sacrifice to us was pointless and unneeded. Do you demand a blood sacrifice to forgive someone? Why should an all powerful being need such a primitive thing?

[Franko47]

It doesn't really matter if sins are forgiven. The fact of the matter is that we as humans are responsible for our actions. Believing that it is like chalk on a blackboard that can be "wiped away" arbitrarily if we go through some kind of ritual or express feelings for a deity doesn't really change the "reality" of the situation.

 

It's like covering a soiled pig in a clean white blanket and claiming that it is "clean".

 

It is intellectual and philosophical "sleight of hand".

 

Add to that, there are things claimed by religion as "sins" which I don't believe are sins or even wrong. Besides, the "sins" I committed say, when I was ten years old are irrelevant now. I'm not even the same person; not really.

 

Why doesn't God just wipe away our capacity for sin, and all the underlying causes for it ? That should be a simple task after we're dead, and just exist in some "spirit" form.

 

And why punish a person who spent most of their life (as many of us do) trying to improve ourselves, establish a high moral conduct with our fellow humans, and assist with human suffering ?

 

No credit for what we are, just condemnation. Forever. Funny how most sinful humans are willing to be more forgiving than this angry God.

[Deva]

"You're trying to approach Christianity through your mind John," she said. It simply cant be done that way.

"Its one of the pecurliarities of Christianity, she went on. that you cannot come to it through intellect. You have to be willing to experience it first, to do something you don't understand- then, oddly enough, understanding often follows. And its just what Im hoping for you today, that without understanding, without even knowing why, you say yes to Christ."

 

So for all of you out there who love logic I think this will very much offend you. My apologies for it,. I believe christianity needs to be approached this way, because science and logic dont deal in the world of sin and reconciliation. It can only be dealt with through and by your heart.

 

This is the problem, Kathlene. If we deal with it by our "heart", our heart tells us that hell is monstrous. Our heart says that eternal torment is cruel and sadistic. No, it is not purely scientific facts and logic (although that was part of it) that deconverted me; it is my heart and my feelings that told me it cannot be true.

 

I will say that many Christians themselves would argue with this paragraph. A lot of them DO think their faith holds up intellectually. We have a couple of them on the forums right now. There were some very intellectual people who were Christians. Granted, that was mostly prior to the 20th century.

 

Appealing purely to ignorance and emotion is not attractive to most educated people.

[Michael]

 

God can be in the presence of sin. If you accept he is Omni-present then by default he is everywhere. God was in the presence of the devil wasn't he when he made a bet with Job?

 

 

Jesus was called "friend of sinners" and he spent quiet an amount of time with them. So jesus was god and had no problem with meeting sinners.

[Michael]

Fear not Kathlene, I'll be gentle.

 

 

A point or two to consider: Why should humanity have to suffer for Adam and Eve's sin? Why not just punish them? Or why couldn't he just forgive them outright.(He could easily have made as if they'd never eaten the fruit at all being the "All Being Master of Time Space and Dimension.") Most people think the idea of punishing children for their parents sake is horrible. By that reasoning, isn't Yahweh doing the same thing?

 

 

The OT god did this quiet often. He cursed entire generations for the sins of their parents, grandparents and so on. Sometimes up to 10 generations. David sinned but his wife and his son got the punishment. The firstborn of Egypt did nothing wrong, they were just born to "evil Egypts". God has his own way of justice, his own moral values.

[Michael]

 

This is from the novel Light in my darkest night, by Catherine Marshall.

 

"I knew that these were habits; the fact was, I had never come to grips with this very question. Was Jesus of Nazareth, in fact God? And now, when I tried, there were mountains of logic that halted me. I started to map them for Catherine, but she stopped me.

 

"You're trying to approach Christianity through your mind John," she said. It simply cant be done that way.

"Its one of the pecurliarities of Christianity, she went on. that you cannot come to it through intellect. You have to be willing to experience it first, to do something you don't understand- then, oddly enough, understanding often follows. And its just what Im hoping for you today, that without understanding, without even knowing why, you say yes to Christ."

 

So for all of you out there who love logic I think this will very much offend you. My apologies for it,. I believe christianity needs to be approached this way, because science and logic dont deal in the world of sin and reconciliation. It can only be dealt with through and by your heart.

 

 

I have tried this approach for nearly twenty years. I had warm feelings and "weird" experiences. My pastor always said "as a xian you do not have to give up logic and reason". I think he was wrong. To me the only possible way to live as a xian is the emotional way, where you can ignore all the contradictions, the moral bankruptcy of the bible and all the logical problems of the bible and the xian faith. I would love to believe, but it would only depend on warm feelings. My neighbor as a muslim has warm feelings too. I always thought, god wanted all people to be saved...this is a lie.

[florduh]

Dear, dear Kathlene. I know you have the capacity for rationality. Don't you miss using your brain and having your own thoughts?

[Legion]

Kathlene I didn't realize you were still a Christian. I feel sad and disappointed.

[Vigile]

If you decide...now read this...YOU decide that loving God or worshipping him is not your cup of tea, or you dont have enough evidence, or whatever it is that you cannot believe in him, God says ok then, and it breaks his heart. He will not violate his created beings and force you into heaven to be with him. He wants YOU to choose Him. If you dont choose him, he isnt saying well bugger off then. He is just saying, thats really sad, however when you die there will be a place that you go to and it is a place where I cannot be because it is a place of sin and darkness.

 

Kathlene, you said you went back to xianity because it makes you happy. I honestly don't understand how someone can be happy and believe this.

 

You're entire post outlines essentially the basic mainstream xian paradigm but in doing so it ignores some very basic logical inconsistencies. Somehow the cliche answers work for xians but they don't for whatever reason contemplate the underlying assumptions of their beliefs and what they really mean.

 

For instance, god, all powerful, all knowing, created these rules and created hell.

 

Why did god, if he is loving, create such an awful place like hell? And ask yourself a question, would you if given the choice, as a mother, choose to bear your children if you knew that they would spend the next 80 years in horrific pain, frustration, loneliness, and outright agony? Why then would god, who knew the path I would choose before I was born choose to make me?

 

There are a lot of things in your post I could pick apart, but let's keep this simple and to the point. God could have chosen not to make me, he could have chosen not to make hell, he could have adopted different rules of salvation, recompense, etc... God is not able to, like Pilot, wash his hands of any blame here.

 

Any human who created a system of rules and punishment like the ones the xian god has created would be necessarily considered a tyrant. How is it then this belief makes you happy?

[chefranden]

Kathlene I didn't realize you were still a Christian. I feel sad and disappointed.

 

She reconverted recently.

[chefranden]

Okay Tab, Im gonna be brave and be the first to answer this calling out...

 

If God is the creator, God is responsible for what exists. If sin exists then God is the source of it, because the single all powerful creator is the only source for anything.

 

We have no free will when in comes to sin. If we, did the idea that all have fallen and sinned would be false. According to Christian doctrine for what ever reason we are forced to be sinners. If this were not the case then some portion of the population of humans would not sin and would not need a savior.

 

In this day and age one does have to approach the faith from an irrational point of view, but no understanding in any intellectual sense follows. I'm not trying to pick on you here, but you have reverted to the same old tired arguments that at one time you knew were without merit.

 

In point of fact, God, if real, does demand love at the point of a gun. Among humans that is considered a crime. Of course any all powerful creator could do what ever it pleases, but let's not confuse its demands with love.

[Guest end3]

What made me de-convert from christianity, was a mix of sadness and horror at the idea that even the kindest, most loving and decent people would be eternally damned just because they didn't accept christ as their saviour. And to play devil's advocate(if you'll forgive the term) even the most wicked didn't deserve to suffer unimaginable suffering forever and ever.

 

I just couldn't accept that an all powerful God, who could do anything, would send any of his creations to eternal torment, just because they didn't worship him.(or worship him "the right way")

 

See, the thing with me, is the whole idea that God is OMNIPOTENT aka all-powerful,he can do anything, even, as I've jokingly stated, turn the sun into a giant peanut butter and jelly sandwich that still generated light and heat. So then, if humans needed guidance to know how to act right, why not come among them and teach them? Some will say this is the function Christ served.

 

Doesn't work for me. God, being all powerful would come down and give guidance to the whole world, not just a few people in Judea. He'd manifest as many incarnations of himself as necessary to give everyone the proper guidance, whether they be Persian, Roman, Greek, Babylonian, and even the as yet undiscovered North , Central and South Americans. And all at the same time.

 

I don't know that anyone at this point Tab can answer the questions to your satisfaction other than God. I will do my best if you would like to have a lengthy discussion on A&E, etc. What I see from your wording is that you don't give God the ability to righteously judge man nor give you an understanding that you can live with.

[Guest end3]

Kathlene I didn't realize you were still a Christian. I feel sad and disappointed.

 

SHIT Legion....I am disappointed in you choice of words...verily.

[Abiyoyo]

I'd like to get the opinion of all christians who post here.

 

 

What made me de-convert from christianity, was a mix of sadness and horror at the idea that even the kindest, most loving and decent people would be eternally damned just because they didn't accept christ as their saviour.

 

First thing first. If someone would deny Christ as a man sent from God in any manner (which would be accepting Christ); wouldn't that mean they really don't attend to a God's existence in the first place? So, in essence, to not accept Christ for what He is would be to not accept any other form of divinity because Christ resembles any one of the other messiah-like people that have claimed spiritual authority, Why not Christ?

 

The better question is why would someone want to believe in God, but not in the philosophy and existence of Christ?

 

There are many variables Tab, and your above statement is broad to the cause.

 

I say that if anyone was to put their belief in any other form of religion then Christ shouldn't be problematic.

 

 

 

 

And to play devil's advocate(if you'll forgive the term) even the most wicked didn't deserve to suffer unimaginable suffering forever and ever.

 

I just couldn't accept that an all powerful God, who could do anything, would send any of his creations to eternal torment, just because they didn't worship him.(or worship him "the right way")

 

Tab, again, another broad statement that could be explained for two days. We don't have all the answers, and we absolutely don't have any rights or judging authority from God to even assume where someone may go when they die.

 

Knowing that we don't have any say in where people go when they die; Why is it an issue?

 

I know, because the Bible says this and that, Paul says this, Christ said that, Peter said this. Right? It's quite a frenzy, Isn't it?

 

I will sum this statement up into one question.

 

Who in the Bible was given the authority to have say in where someone will rest in the afterlife?

See, the thing with me, is the whole idea that God is OMNIPOTENT aka all-powerful,he can do anything, even, as I've jokingly stated, turn the sun into a giant peanut butter and jelly sandwich that still generated light and heat. So then, if humans needed guidance to know how to act right, why not come among them and teach them? Some will say this is the function Christ served.

 

Doesn't work for me. God, being all powerful would come down and give guidance to the whole world, not just a few people in Judea. He'd manifest as many incarnations of himself as necessary to give everyone the proper guidance, whether they be Persian, Roman, Greek, Babylonian, and even the as yet undiscovered North , Central and South Americans. And all at the same time.

 

Tab, you answered your own question without seeing the answer. Yes, Christ was that guidance.

 

Ask yourself a few questions, if you really want the answer to this thought.

 

1)Where did the Jews go when they died before Christ?

 

2)What did Paul say about Christ and Jewish Law?

 

3)Would God turn away anyone that worshiped him, regardless of the means of guidance?

 

These are difficult questions, and not usual in the modern church. IMO, Christianity is just like the USA; you have to separate church and state. The state in this instance would be the church in general, denomination, doctrinal stances with different extremities.

 

The church wants their church to be exclusive, along with any other product being sold in the world. Exclusiveness equals demand. The church screams heresy, yet not ONE person living can determine who goes to heaven or hell. To be honest with you Tab, I have never understood why this failed observation is not acknowledged among non-believers. It baffles me.

 

There is no one way, and yes, you are correct, if there were only one way, it wouldn't be real. Now, why Christ, right?,..... Why not?

 

 

So with that said, here's the problems I have with Yahweh/Jesus, the god of the bible.

 

So according to Genesis, Yahweh creates Adam and Eve and puts them in the garden. Then we get to how this whole mess supposedly started which is,The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

Now there are some who will say "That was a test of obedience." But if Yahweh knew what they'd do(which is eat the fruit) and thereby damn themselves, why put the temptation in front of them and then tell them "No you can't have this!"

 

The serpent is blamed for Adam and Eve's fall, but I think it falls squarely on Yahweh's shoulders. He created the tree,and gave the fruit it's special properties in bestowing the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, by creating the tree and tempting Adam and Eve(yes you read it right, I said TEMPTING) into eating it by saying they couldn't have it.(He knew they couldn't resist, he made them with "God given curiosity") It was Yahweh who truly created evil.

 

If God didn't understand evil, or know what it is, then he wouldn't be God. Did God say, "And I will make evil, and He said, It is good"?

 

Of course not. Now, A&E. What do we know about Adam and Eve.

 

1) They were originally made NOT in a physical sense that we are in now (earth not yielding, childbirth, talking serpent).

2) A&E were 'tricked' into eating the fruit, deceived.

3) All three were cast 'out' of the Garden of Eden to what seemingly would look to describe, Earth.

4) They became as any other creature that God had already made on Earth.

5) They still had an angelic essence because God did not utterly destroy A&E, but only removed them from the Garden.

 

I look at all these points of A&E and come to a few conclusions.

 

1) They were made from God outside of the creatures He made on Earth.

2) They were not destroyed completely, but moved to another location, in a lesser authority (compared to in the Garden).

3) They were given authority over the Earth.

 

If A&E sinned in the Garden of Eden, causing our being, spirit, consciousness, emotion, etc to be placed on Earth, limited to the Earth, relative to pain, cursed without redemption; then why didn't He just destroy them?

 

If being deceived and making a mistake caused this much chaos in the heavens, How can anyone on Earth go to Heaven?

We sin much more than just by being deceived.

 

Pity? Sympathy? God changed his mind?

 

Redeemed. Shown the way. Righteousness through faith, and by grace. It is by grace that they were not destroying from the face of an omnipotent being when they disobeyed. By grace, can they (and there descendants) be redeemed through obedience, faith?

 

I say yes. So did Paul.

 

Now some of you will mention how the sacrifice of Christ was Yahweh's way of redeeming man.

Well, it actually made things worse.Things were made much stricter. You either "got saved" ensuring you entered heaven, or you didn't which meant you went to hell aka eternal damnation. (And the different ideas of what constituted salvation is enough to potentially drive the most devout follower insane, wondering if they were "truly saved".)

 

Tab, again, Who knows who is going to eternal damnation. Who in the Bible gives that authority, or is given that authority to direct the path of afterlife?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to Christ's death on the cross, the worst thing Yahweh would do to the disobedient and "wicked" was to smite them with disease, famine, burning hail, and or violent death. His anger ended at the grave. But christianity changed all that to unending wrath.

 

 

So there it is. How can an all powerful God, who created the billions of stars and galaxies that make up the vast universe be so petty and vindictive, he'd create a system where you either bow down to him in blind, unquestioning slavery, or suffer eternal torment?

 

It's all in the Book.

[Vigile]

Kathlene I didn't realize you were still a Christian. I feel sad and disappointed.

 

SHIT Legion....I am disappointed in you choice of words...verily.

 

Only a religious person could disparage someone's forgoing of logic.

[Legion]

End I truly don't care if you are Christian or not. If you want to keep adhering to Christianity and defending it, then it's your business. It's your time and your mind. But so long as you do that then I'll have a certain set of lowered expectations for you.

 

What do you want from me?

[Guest end3]

End I truly don't care if you are Christian or not. If you want to keep adhering to Christianity and defending it, then it's your business. It's your time and your mind. But so long as you do that then I'll have a certain set of lowered expectations for you.

 

What do you want from me?

 

I want you to have the f'n insight that Kath is reaching out in her faith and choices in her life that make her feel good....is this ok without you telling her you are disappointed? Keep it to yourself.

[Legion]

End I truly don't care if you are Christian or not. If you want to keep adhering to Christianity and defending it, then it's your business. It's your time and your mind. But so long as you do that then I'll have a certain set of lowered expectations for you.

 

What do you want from me?

I want you to have the f'n insight that Kath is reaching out in her faith and choices in her life that make her feel good....is this ok without you telling her you are disappointed? Keep it to yourself.

Why should I keep it to myself? Why should I be silent about how I feel?

 

I wasn't trying to influence. I was just reporting my emotions.

[Deva]

The better question is why would someone want to believe in God, but not in the philosophy and existence of Christ?

 

Come on, Yoyo. There are different ideas about God that differ radically from the Biblical version. It certainly is possible for someone to believe in God and have a problem with this whole story of Christ.

 

I say that if anyone was to put their belief in any other form of religion then Christ shouldn't be problematic.

 

"Religion" is a very broad term. I think Christ is indeed problematic for many diests, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., even assuming they know very much about him. They might accept a version of Christ - who knows, some might accept him as an avatar or a bodhisattva. I am willing to bet the version that talks about "hell unless you believe in me" isn't one of them.

 

We don't have all the answers, and we absolutely don't have any rights or judging authority from God to even assume where someone may go when they die.

 

We don't have to have all the answers to see that the concept of hell and the judgment of God as presented in the Bible is immoral and contradicts the "love" of God.

 

Knowing that we don't have any say in where people go when they die; Why is it an issue?

 

How do you know that we don't?

[Deva]

End I truly don't care if you are Christian or not. If you want to keep adhering to Christianity and defending it, then it's your business. It's your time and your mind. But so long as you do that then I'll have a certain set of lowered expectations for you.

 

What do you want from me?

 

I want you to have the f'n insight that Kath is reaching out in her faith and choices in her life that make her feel good....is this ok without you telling her you are disappointed? Keep it to yourself.

 

End. Your language and your attitude has taken a nosedive recently. Isn't it OK for someone to express their honest opinion without you getting all worked up? Control yourself.