[Kuroikaze]

pandora, on Jan 7 2006, 01:08 AM, said:

Who is WE? Is she Jill? I am speaking of the lady that talked about her dad and women's intuition... but reading it again, it was presumptuous. I apologize. I read to hastily. It's late!

As for pseudoegripha, I believe I am correct. It is right here in my book, and my vague knowledge of latin roots tells me that pseudo-false and gripha-writings and scholars use this term with these roots in mind. The other term you use means false name, pseudo-flase and nonymous-name unknown. But yes, that term is used to refer to writings that have been given a false name, one that was meant to be in the tradition of certain apostle, but not actually written by that apostle. The terms are confusing, I agree. You may want to double check your usage, however.

I may be wrong here, but I think the term pseudepigrapha (was that the term you were meaning to use?) is an actually book or set of writings by various prophets between the period of 200 B.C.E. and 200 C.E. that were declared to be false, by Jewish scholars. The term is usually used to this set of writings. They were ascribed to various ancient prophets or kings of Judea, but were written far later, most of them were apocalyptic in nature I believe. I had a friend in college who had to read it for one of his classes on hebrew writings.

[REBOOT]

Quote

HOW did you tell people you no longer believed?

None of their business.... don't tell !

This is personal stuff. If I was a Mormon and lived in an intoxicated area such as Salt Lake city... I'd change city Who needs to face intolerance and aggravation. Leaving self-centered religions is no picnic and always a judgment call on those who stay.

Telling your hot-crossed bun chewing relatives that they are brainwashed 'wack-jobs' is fun if you're a dentist and like to see them scream at you

This post has been edited by REBOOT: 17 February 2006 - 04:15 PM

[boink666]

I anounced it on day while cleaning the bathroom. I dont know why . But i went upstairs and said "ive made up my mind your gawd is just that its YOUR gawd, not mine! i want nothing to do with him!" Much to say my mom was shocked she went into the next room and cried (which i hate when she does but i was strong) I later had an actual talk with her and she asked does this mean im going to become a "sinful" person? I had to explain to her just because i dont believe in gawd it doesn't mean im going to go out and do drugs, drink like crazy, and comit murder. After that she felt better but she said i still had to go to church i said fine but only for a little while and it doesn't mean i believe anymore.

[lothartx]

I wish I'd run across this site about 4 months ago!
My parents were involved in the Methodist church when I was young. I went through the confirmation thing and all, but to me it was just words and I never really bought into it. After I was about 13 - 14 we just stopped going to church. Nothing was said, just stopped. I think my parents became agnostic/athiest at that time, though they just recently made if very clear.

I'm much older (42) and married to a YEC, BAC. My wife was a Baptist when we met and I, being blindly in lust and love, did the whole baptism, decleration of faith. I really wanted to believe....

However, since that time (about 17 years ago). I "drifted" too and from trying to be "religious". I had many objections and was never comfortable with religion. Something just seemed "wrong".... My wife, on the other hand, went the other direction and is full force fundy everything is evil, end is near, gotta save all the souls kinda B.S.

Then, about 6 months ago I stumbled across the Flying Spaghetti Monster site. I laughed my arse off, and my eyes started to open.

I attend a fundy charismatic church with my wife and kids here in Austin. One day, during the "alter call", this lady comes over, crying and the whole bit, and says "Mike, don't you want what they have??". Meaning the folks with the arms in the air and swaying and chanting. Inside the answer was instant. "NO!, you'll are nuts!". However, I politely dodged the question and gave vague answers. My wife is sitting next to me and said something about "God was telling to ask you the same thing..."


At that point I made a decision. I would do my "due diligence" and let the facts speack for themselves. Lets just say the house of cards came tumbling down. I quit pretending to like church, or to pray. I told my wife in using "Rip the BandAid" method, she took it OK. Then I came home with some books from Michael Shermer, Carl Sagan and few others. That's when poop hit the fan. She wouldn't speak to me for about a day. I actually thought we were headed for rapid divorce. I did almost tell her the two main reasons for my decision was looking at her beliefs now vs. when we met and the current church we attend. I think I did the right thing by erring to caution.

Things have calmed down now, but it's a very sore subject and I know I'm on everybody's prayer list

I don't know how I would break the news differently, there isn't a good way.
Being "out" wow... I feel better now than I have in years!

The problem is all of our (read "her") friends are die hard fundy's. Blaahhh

Sorry to unload on you guys in my first post, but to be honest, I got no one to talk about this....

Thanks for reading...

[pandora]

Do you still go to church with her? It is encouraging to hear that some marriages survive this kind of blow... maybe you should be encouraged by the fact that in the ones that do survive, the other partner usually follows suit. At least it did with mine. *sigh of relief* It was rough there for a year or so...

[lothartx]

pandora, on Feb 20 2006, 02:52 PM, said:

Do you still go to church with her? It is encouraging to hear that some marriages survive this kind of blow... maybe you should be encouraged by the fact that in the ones that do survive, the other partner usually follows suit. At least it did with mine. *sigh of relief* It was rough there for a year or so...

Yes, I still go to church, but I no longer hide my feelings. Well, sometimes I do out of politeness. I consider myself an observer. It's pretty enteraining. Like being the only sober guy at a party!

I feel I need to show the same respect to their beliefs as I would like have them show me. I'm not going to shout B.S. every time I hear some obsurdity.

I no longer attend any home based bible studies or groups. I spend that time at home surfing the internet, reading or playing computer games.

I'm curious how it worked for you. This is an issue we have great difficulty talking about. We both shy from confrontation. The only marriage consolur she'll talk has to be "Christian". They spent the whole time telling our problems would be solved if I let "Jesus" back into my heart....

[Checkmate]

lothartx, on Feb 20 2006, 12:04 PM, said:

I wish I'd run across this site about 4 months ago!
............
Sorry to unload on you guys in my first post, but to be honest, I got no one to talk about this....

Thanks for reading...

Welcome, Lothartx! And please, don't apologize for unloading. That IS why this site exists. MANY of us (myself included) have nowhere else to go to vent, explain and unwind about our lack of faith, and so we come here. So kick your shoes off, make yourself comfy and say whatever you need to help the process along.

<<<<hands lothartx the virtual mug of mead>>>>

Welcome!

[REBOOT]

Quote

"Mike, don't you want what they have??". Meaning the folks with the arms in the air and swaying and chanting. Inside the answer was instant. "NO!, you'll are nuts!".

A classic

[lothartx]

Thanks Grinch, Reboot and pandora!

I definetely need the beer.

Perhaps I'll make that quote my sig... :-)
after I fix the you'll to ya'll.... got myself in a lather typing, I guess...

[Perry]

hello lothartx

The tussle of logic versus phaith is demanding.
As you gave up on the easter bunny, tooth fairy,
other fairy tales and father xmas, so you gave up
on ghosts, myths and the grand self-deception cum
confidence trick called religion.

As we the people get better educated and informed,
we realise we are/were being duped. However, some
like it that way: they get a perverse sense of well-being
from the whole charade.

Where religion fails is not just in a fair and reasonable
appraisal, but in an examination of its history. That's
all religions, by the way. The Dark Ages were called that
because of religion, mainly Roman Catholicism.

Science advances that debunked the churches position
of the sun revolving around the earth, the earth being flat
and so on, are all conveniently forgotten by modern
churchers. And there was the Inquisition. All in the name
of gawd, of course.

Then one can surf through the biblical creation myth story.
If the Hebrew tribal deity did the things described in
Genesis, then it isn't really a deity of any significance at
all! It is a "construct," a "fabrication," deserving no
respect and nothing more.

This deity figure takes a stroll through a 'garden' that it
concocted. It makes an audible footfall. It prefers
evening for strolling, because it's cooler. (How
anthropomorphic!) After expressing some displeasure
with it's initial creation[s], it kills an/some animal[s] (my
presumption) to make clothes (needles and thread from
where?) for its failed exercise in human
cloning/creation. After goofing in creating animals in the
belief that one of them would be a suitable 'mate' for
its first (male) creation effort, it fabricates a female
homo sapien sapien because genetic incompatibility
makes procreation impossible, otherwise. (Shouldn't it
have known that, in advance? What a thicko!) Then
there's a snake that can talk and - unlike a parrot that
mimics - seemingly reason! Did Noah miss those talking
serpents when he boarded the beasts into the ark?

Then there's the talking ass and the talking trees.

How do grown adults get suckered by these confabulations?

[Lsettr]

I got lucky. My husband had already begun to drift from the church while I tried my best to learn from the place. As I began my own bible study, I realized that they were not really teaching at all, but were trying to candy coat things and not question anything.

I am now a history and anthropology major who focuses on religion and folklore. I have learned much more about the christian faith than most christians I know. My husband and I have stepped away from the faith quietly. We are discreet because we live and have a business in our small southern town. I show other people courtesy and expect the same. So far all is well with everyone except my mother. She sees that I have stepped away and makes comments now and again about it.
She hopes to "train" my daughter in the ways of the lord. To her chagrin, I am teaching all of my children in the ways of reality and truth. Their morals and ethics are high and all of them are learning their values and their hearts...they answer to themselves and not to anything outside their own hearts/conscience first and foremost.

I believe your path is best for you. The quieter route has been best for me. No, it is not always easy, but it works for some of us. And I as well as my husband come here to remind ourselves that we are not alone.

[spamandham]

Welcome loth! (I can call you loth, right?)

Your situation is not tooo different from my own. I thought my wife was going to leave me shortly after breaking the good news that my mind had been cured of the mental virus that had plagued me since childhood. Unfortunately, she didn't take it as positive like I did.

It's been a few years since then and we're still together. She's just as religious as she was, but we've mostly reached a point of peace on the subject. She goes to church and prays as much as she wants, and brainwashes the kids to her hearts content, and I play no role in it. When asked by my kids, I simply don't answer. She's not ready for total openess, but the refusal to talk about it I think answers their questions regardless. I would prefer to be open about it to them, and think one day I will be able to.

[jrmarlin]

Cat, on Jan 14 2006, 03:09 AM, said:

It's hard work, this telling people when your whole life revolved around church before...

You will get through it. If you really think about it, your personal spirituality is really your business. As much as everyone might want to tell you otherwise. Its not up to them - it's up to you and if you're heart is not in it then it would false anyway. You can only be who and what you are...

Trying to be something you're not is just too exhausting!

[lothartx]

Spamandham
You can call me loth... I'll answer to almost anything.
Your situation sounds exactly like mine. I'm forbidden from deluding my children with facts and real science (for now, they are only 11 and 9). But it has not gone unoticed by my kids. If they ask me a question when the wife is not around, I give them an honest answer. I do answer in a way that makes I hope makes them think. I make sure it will not put them at odds with "Mom" or in any way condeming.


Kinda looks like I hijacked this thread. Maybe I should a new one about dealing with spouses, kids.

[labratsolo]

I grew up in a large, very religous family, but most of my brothers and sisters have come to the same conclusion, long before I did, so among us it's pretty much unspoken, anyway. My mother, I'm not so sure I will ever tell her, I'm am convinced that hearing the news from her youngest would kill her, for sure...

As for friends, I guess I kind of have a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. If anyone asks me about my relationship with Christ, or how I'm doing spiritually, or where I go to church these days, I will freely tell them that I have renounced Christianity; if they invite me to a church function, I will politely decline. I'm not really ready for the avalanche of witnessing that comes from telling a Christian that you're not a Christian anymore, and I've already had my fill of "but don't you care about your soul?" questions, so I only tell if it comes up in conversation.

My current roommate is on the fence about his own Christianity, but we don't really talk about it... I figured I'd found my way on my own, and he has no problem with my decision, I'm sure he'll discover his own way too.

[Checkmate]

labratsolo, on Feb 26 2006, 11:26 PM, said:

...........
As for friends, I guess I kind of have a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. If anyone asks me about my relationship with Christ, or how I'm doing spiritually, or where I go to church these days, I will freely tell them that I have renounced Christianity; if they invite me to a church function, I will politely decline. I'm not really ready for the avalanche of witnessing that comes from telling a Christian that you're not a Christian anymore, and I've already had my fill of "but don't you care about your soul?" questions, so I only tell if it comes up in conversation.

My current roommate is on the fence about his own Christianity, but we don't really talk about it... I figured I'd found my way on my own, and he has no problem with my decision, I'm sure he'll discover his own way too.

Ah Wisdom! Ya gotta love it! Welcome to the forum and the land of Freethought, labratsolo. It sounds to me that you've got a level head, and a well thought out method for dealing with things. That's great. Keep up the good work.

[Varokhar]

labratsolo, on Feb 27 2006, 01:26 AM, said:

I grew up in a large, very religous family, but most of my brothers and sisters have come to the same conclusion, long before I did, so among us it's pretty much unspoken, anyway. My mother, I'm not so sure I will ever tell her, I'm am convinced that hearing the news from her youngest would kill her, for sure...

As for friends, I guess I kind of have a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. If anyone asks me about my relationship with Christ, or how I'm doing spiritually, or where I go to church these days, I will freely tell them that I have renounced Christianity; if they invite me to a church function, I will politely decline. I'm not really ready for the avalanche of witnessing that comes from telling a Christian that you're not a Christian anymore, and I've already had my fill of "but don't you care about your soul?" questions, so I only tell if it comes up in conversation.

My current roommate is on the fence about his own Christianity, but we don't really talk about it... I figured I'd found my way on my own, and he has no problem with my decision, I'm sure he'll discover his own way too.

Yes, very well-put. Welcome to the board, and good for you! I am pretty much the same, revealing my religious opinions only when the conversation comes to that, for the most part. There's no need to go and preach the good news of Deism or however I see things, anyway. I won't hide it if questioned, but don't feel the need to march around and show it off, either.

[Perry]

Wolfheart, on Feb 28 2006, 04:56 AM, said:

I've already had my fill of "but don't you care about your soul?"
questions, so I only tell if it comes up in conversation.

Of course, that type of rejoinder presumes too much.
It also seeks to put the blame on you and the burden
of disproof on your shoulders. Whether wittingly or
otherwise, it's a very manipulative tactic. The burden
of proof lies with those making the claim for something
(the existence of gawd). It is not up to the rational
person to prove anything other than the showing that
the evidence advanced by the ‘believer’ is incredible
and fantastic.

One hard "break" to make is re-appraising the long-used
jargon. "Soul?" "Whazzat?" Those should be the answers.
Followed by something like, “I've given up believing in the
Easter bunny, Father Christmas, the Tooth fairy and now
I've given up believing in religious fables. It's just part of
my growing up."

The same goes for “convicted in your heart” and other such
emotive claims. “The heart is a muscle that pumps blood.
All references to affairs of the heart are to do with feelings.
Not a one has anything to do with reason and intellect.
I use my head to make most important decisions and
I recommend you do the same.”

[chris 1.0]

so far I have only told a few people. My wife didn't take it well at first but is slowly coming around. she sits on the fence herself but I believe a fear of hell and a lifelong belief chokehold is keeping here believing. If her parents found out I'm pretty sure they would push her to divorce (which she wouldn't do) because they are uber fundies. I told my mother that I didn't really believe anymore and she actually didn't seem that upset but just said "well try not to give up completely" but other than that she was cool with it. My biggest fear is actually telling my closest friends but I'm pretty sure they are starting to "get the drift" so to speak.

a funny story :

a kid who I once mentored and "led to the lord" IM'd me asking for biblical advice and when I told him "I can't really give you any of that anymore" he freaked out.

[Lapdog]

I told my wife as soon as I had finished reading what convinced me. She only started going to church when we got together, so she doesn't know a whole lot about the religion to begin with. In that sense, she draws on her own feelings and traditions as someone from a different culture, and therefore has never been into the idea of the alternative to being a Christian being a damned heathen.

She still suggests we should go to church, because in all honesty the minister is a very good preacher and Sunday services are deliberately intended for general use. They consider home groups and stuff to be where a Chrisitian needs to be visiting for spiritual watering.

But I also know about what he's like Monday to Saturday and that most of the elders that started the church have since left it, because of the direction it has taken.

I might need to tell my wife a bit more about the dirty laundry before she loses interest in church altogether.

Anyway, my great aunt rang today to ask when our baby son is going to be baptised, being the widow of an Anglican minister and all. She doesn't know about our deconversion and I will only tell her if she annoys me too much. The reason she is asking about baptism is nothing to do with spirituality: she is just, as always, trying to have things her way. She knows our entire religious history since I was old enough to go to Sunday school has been in churches that do not practice baptism of infants. In fact, I once heard her late husband telling some people at a gathering that he always told enquirers that it was not biblical and not appropriate. I wonder if he ever told her (she was bigger than he).

Of my closest friends, the only one I believe is/still is a Christian is probably not suitable to tell: I think he is just the kind of personality that is attracted to things of firmness. He spent a good while before his return to the church trying to score with nubile girls of an age Joseph Smith used to prefer and banging around a bit with those that let him. That said, at least he knows what it's like to be an ex-Christian, albeit not with the knowledge that the faith is false, just out of preference for his other interests for a time.

However, I really would like to break it to those friends I think fell away years ago, just so they know they themselves have nothing to hide from me. The question is how many of them, since they know people that know people that know people I don't want to know.