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Dearest Heavenly Bible God, Father, Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit, The Creator of the Universe,

I come to you with the utmost sincerity of my heart, to talk with you. I have wanted to please you all my life. I have searched for you all my life. I have wanted to be one of your chosen. I never wanted to even worry on this earth about going to your hell. So I tried to be good. Yes, I screwed up quite a few times, made quite a few mistakes, but they told me it was because I was 'blood and 'flesh' and that you were like the potter, taking this ‘blob’ of sinful clay and turning me into a diamond. I have always asked for your forgiveness and to give me another chance to prove myself to you. I hated letting you down. I always wanted to strengthen myself and be a woman of god for you – but you did not want to prove yourself for me, no matter how much I asked or prayed to you.
Please forgive me for missing any signs that you did try to give me.

I have also, throughout the last 30 years, asked for more faith because I always felt as if I didn't have enough. I was honest with you about this. I told you everything. I confessed everything. I was told by many, that the 'mustard seed’ was good enough and that's all I had to have. But I wanted more than a seed of faith. I wanted big faith; enough to convince my mind of you, enough to stop the questions that I continued to drive you crazy with. Enough to move all the mountains in my life....
Please forgive me for this lack of faith that I had during all the past years.

I even joked with you, so many times that YOU were the one who gave me this inquisitive personality. You are supposed to be all powerful and therefore you could have changed me. I asked you to change me. Why didn't you? Why did you hesitate? Were you testing me all along like you did your servant, Job? I was even straightforward about that and told you that I would not pass that kind of test. Then I asked you why you would even want to test us? Why would you – a loving, kind father, even allow this devil you allowed to fall from grace, sit by our side and watch as we suffered through many horrific things in life? We are your children. You made us. You created us. You didn’t answer... Please forgive me for my reservations with this issue.

Now I am learning that you might not be there at all. You have watched me at my computer. You have seen the research I’ve been doing in the past 5 years. You have seen and heard me questioning the bible since the night I was ‘saved’. I have asked you a hundred times in the last year to show yourself to me. I have screamed in agony. I have told you that are about to lose me. I have asked you if you care that I am falling away from the faith. And still you do nothing. You don’t even kill me. I was honest before you concerning this ‘doubting Thomas’ syndrome...
Can you really see what’s in my heart? If you can, and you are truly a loving entity - will you please forgive me?

You give me no clues whatsoever. The world is falling apart. We are killing each other. There are murders, rapes, poverty, and slavery. There are people fighting over whose land is whose and bombings everywhere. Do you see this? There is torture, starvation, cancer, drowning, dismemberment, and very painful diseases. You are supposed to be ‘all knowing.’ You could give us the cure for cancer and yet you remain silent. There is an epidemic of depression and suicide and thus far - you do nothing. How could a good and powerful God who loves you stand aside, unmoved to action, while such things happen?
Please forgive me for being angry at you.

My biggest problem with you is you are supposed to be all powerful, you are supposed to be all good, full of love and yet all this evil exists. They have reassured me that when I get to heaven, you will explain all these mysteries to me. Why wait? Why not explain them to me now? Why not appear at the bottom of my bed in the late of night to have a talk? Why not appear in the sky (or wherever), even one community at a time and tell us that ''you will bring all things together for good'' as you promised in your bible. So many unanswered prayers...
Please forgive me for questioning your invisibility and indistinguishable lack of presence.

You are hiding from me so effectively, that the world looks just as I would expect it to look, and be, without a God running the show. It doesn’t have any of the characteristics I would be anticipating to find, if there was a caring, intervening, superseding God. All of my attempts to confirm your existence have come up empty handed. You are hiding so successfully. I have to admit that in order to believe like I did for years, I must do it by ignoring the contrary evidence. I must resolve to this concept called ‘faith’. You are hiding so stubbornly, I must conclude, among other things, that you do not want or care if I believe anymore. If you wanted me to believe, you think would show me evidence in a thousand obvious ways, because my heart has yearned for the proof....
Please forgive me for giving up the search.

One last quick discussion. Why didn’t you make us the way you wanted us to be in the first place? It could have been so simple – you are god! Why tempt us in the garden? Why make hell? Why scare people? Why would you do this to us? I have been taught that all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely each one followed God's will in his life. I really tried to do this. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life.

Why did you need to resort to human sacrifices to ‘satisfy’ the sin disease - which you created and tempted us with in the first place? Why be so cruel? Obviously, I will go to this hell you created for people who reject. It’s not that I want to reject you – I just don’t trust you anymore. Trust is reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, of a person or thing; confidence. It is the confident expectation of hope that someone really cares for your well-being. It gives you confidence in the certainty of the future. It is a loving person on whom one relies. It is the condition of one, to whom something has been entrusted with, like custody or care. It is a commitment of love, and that love would not hurt you.....Please forgive me for not trusting you anymore.

I loved you for a long time and yet, you scare me with hell? And then you tell me that you are a loving God. Would you be affectionate and forgiving enough to take my hand and walk in hell with me?

I really wanted to believe in your existence, but you have gone to extraordinary lengths to make that difficult for me. The world looks just like there is no Bible God to me and I am heartbroken. It saddens me from the bottom of my heart to admit that I do not believe that the Holy Christian Bible is the ‘Word of God’ anymore. It grieves me very much to say goodbye to the God of the bible. It is your ‘Holy Scriptures’ taken literally from all over the world has made the planet into the mess it’s in today. Please forgive me for saying this.

One last prayer of forgiveness:

I pray that you will understand all my questions and forgive me for not believing the ‘Holy Bible’ that I was brought up to believe in. I am asking for your forgiveness for my doubting. I am asking for forgiveness for not really believing in you – but please, if you do exist and I have missed it – before I end this letter – would you always try to remember the heart that searched long and hard for you?
I will forgive you – if you will forgive me.

Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart – Your Child, Margee

I haven't been on this road long, but it's been long enough to make some observations. This is coming partly from my own experience, but mainly from the experience of others here on Ex-C.

I've just been thinking about how much non-believers must lay down our own sense of authenticity, honesty, and even integrity - for the sake of sparing people we love. We all know that if we really got into it with a Christian friend or family member, we could pretty easily tumble their house of cards. But we don't. We love them too much. We know that it is a personal journey each one of us must find on our own, and it is not to be forced on anyone.

But our believing loved-ones don't know this. They don't know how many times we bite our tongues. They don't know how much of ourselves we must hide from them. They don't know how lonely we are. They don't know the struggles we have gone through and the damage that has been done to us by religion. And they don't know how much better off we are now...they may see a change in us...but they don't know why it's there. They may think it's because of all the prayers they've been praying for us. And we must let them believe that.

On the flip side, some of us have come out to people. And we are ridiculed, judged and made to feel as though something is wrong with us. And still, we don't use our pain as motivation to try to de-convert those who abuse us.

It frustrates me that people view ex-c's so harshly. They have no idea the struggles we face and the lack of support we have.They have no idea what amazing, loving, caring, considerate people we are. They don't know that we live our lives being misunderstood.

Well I just want to say today that I appreciate every one of you on this forum. I DO see what amazing people you are and I understand the shit you have to go through. I understand the sacrifices you make for the sake of the people you love (and even the ones you don't!). And I know what it will be like for some of you as you hang out with your family and friends this Christmas, hiding this huge part of yourself. Or maybe some of you have come out to people and you will be alone this Christmas...or even worse, spending time with people who are judging and ridiculing you.

Here's to all of you...you are beautiful people and I'm glad to have found this forum.

Much love,
2H

religion is evil... it's so evil I can hardly find words to describe it's vileness...

My deconversion, if you will, seems to have gone in a spiral... in steps. For a very long time even after I rejected christianity I clung to my various conceptions of god, or whatever—fuck—I don't even know what to call it anymore.

I've studied and practiced various forms of theism.. from pantheistic witchcraft to Rosicrucianism, to Pentecostal, to... well, let's just say I've been to a lot of different branches of this faith thing, always thinking, nay believing, deep down that somehow there must be a loving force and if so, I can find it... call it god for lack of a better descriptor.

I'm a seeker... it's my nature... but what I really desired was truth.(still do) The truth is I'm an evolved and intelligent and MORAL being. I've always been this, even as a child—there isn't a time when I can remember being different... I wasn't raised in religion, and even at 6 or 7 I remember being concerned about others and CARING about the world. I was BORN THIS WAY.

I've done a lot of reading, here and elsewhere, I've watched video's, studied history, science and well... done my best to be well-informed and use the reasoning abilities I was born with, and I'm fucking pissed off.

Because I've come to the conclusion that religion is evil. It's evil and it exploits human nature and needs in the worst ways possible, It negates reason, morality and humanity.

This is not even close to the rage I am experiencing...or the thousand reasons why and how I have come to this conclusion... and expressing it is hard. Just getting over the hurdle of not being 'tolerant' and 'understanding' and 'accepting of others views' is like climbing Mount Everest... being afraid to 'offend'..etc.. blah blah blah... fuck it all because this is a truism...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. " - Edmund Burke

I think about Victor Frankl's, "The Search for Meaning" and many other books I've read that illustrate the true nobility that humans are capable of and I can see that religion negates all of that—makes it worthless, and teaches that we are less than, NO, REQUIRES that people are less than they can be. How much more despicable than, "without god you can do nothing" can anything be? It devalues people, it devalues people and makes it possible for atrocity. Religion requires that we see ourselves and especially others as not worthy... of anything, much less compassion or kindness. If our own creator can't accept us as we are...

And christians are upset to think we are related to chimpanzee's, because they believe it devalues them? Their own book devalues them—the entire concept makes us less worthy than any animal.. animals are innocent! But we are the scum of the earth, and by making us believe that we become so incredibly gullible that we will do ANYTHING to relieve that sense of vulnerability and worthlessness, whether that's believing lies, or killing others... anything. It's an untenable psychic state. Throw in a good dose of fear (but make us believe we deserve it) and that's it folks... wrap it up.. you just created a battered woman out the majority of the human race.

FUCK THAT!

and Religion REQUIRES violence. Seriously... what is more abhorrent than blood sacrifice of the blameless? It requires that we accept this concept as fucking holy? What the hell is holy about being joyful that innocent blood is shed to keep you from taking personal responsibility? The whole concept is... makes me nauseous.

I can see now why the religious are so damn quick to be violent—it's ingrained in their very matrix of how they see reality. How can they be peaceful when their 'creator' in who's image they are, (think about it) is such a violent, bloodthirsty monster? And i don't give two flying fucks if it's fundamentalism or moderate belief because in the end it's the same damn thing... if you really don't believe the world and humanity is intrinsically worthy, or stand against religious batshit crazyness then you ENABLE the worst of you and you are culpable.

Religion, by it's very nature, opens the way for people to exploit and abuse others. Interpretation, vague texts, emotional understanding, giving the morally immature a parent figure so they don't have to grow up, feeding people's need for acceptance and society and approval, setting up systems where the immoral can whitewash their crap with 'righteousness'. Taking advantage of the simple human need to be loved, who does that? I'm a parent... of a rebellious teenager I might add... do I ever look at her, even in her worst moments (and boy oh boy, she can dish it out sometimes) and wish her any harm... EVER? The opposite is true... I want nothing for her EXCEPT the very highest happiness, wonderful life and self-fulfillment possible. If she rejects my 'way' would I disown her? never.

God is love? Not from where I stand. And the evidence is all around... in spades.

AND... If there is a different god, a loving god, why would it hide from me? I call bollocks. Fuck faith and the horse it rode in on. Absurdities.

Religion makes people unbelievably stupid, mentally unbalanced, vengeful, arrogant and morally bankrupt. Yet hides behind this 'light and love' clothing. It's the very definition of passive-aggressiveness, malignant narcissism, and delusional projection.

This particular wave of my enlightenment was precipitated by the muslim violence over that stupid ass movie (trailer actually) that was made by another group of religious nutjobs who think they have the truth... I'm sick of it. It's UNACCEPTABLE.

Religion is a plague on mankind. A mental and moral social disease.. I'm thoroughly convinced now.

I am not an atheist anymore... I am firmly an anti-theist. I believe that religion should be fought, torn down, whatever... with all the strength we have.

sorry i went all over the place... it's hard to organize it all... because it's a whole lot of everything and it affects every single person on this planet. There is no longer anything that can convince me there is anything good about it.

So, this afternoon, my dear, little, fragile 91 year old MIL comes out of her bedroom from her afternoon snooze and screams, 'Margee, I'd like to talk to you about something'. Well this sounded very serious, so I said... 'give me a few minutes and I'll make us both a cup of tea'. I stood in the kitchen wondering what this dear lady sounded so stressed about.

I went in the den we set up for her and sat opposite to her and said, ''What's on your mind, my dear?'
She looked me straight in the eye and said, ''Do you believe in god?''

Oh. My. Gawd...... was this a trick question, I thought to myself?? Am I supposed to be a good 'god fearing' DIL or not???? What do I say????

I turned it around on her and asked her, 'why do you want to know'? Well, she said, 'I have some questions and I have no one to talk to about them'. I said, 'tell me more'.........

Long story short....91 years of watching how the world is. 91 years of hard work. Tons of unanswered prayers and too many 'stupid' things in the bible!! She felt like her prayers 'hit the ceiling' for most of her life!! She told me that she has seen a lot of horror in this world over her lifetime! That's what she said!! She has kept that in all these years!!

I was in her room for an hour, told her all about me. She was sooooo happy to know she wasn't the only one who ever questioned god. I told her all about Charles Templeton's book and how it helped me so much. She wanted to see the book. She knew about him very well. So I went downstairs and got it for her. We both agreed together that we felt that death would be one big adventure. That's how we ended the conversation......So now, she is sitting in her room reading my book....'Farewell To God''......

She told me today this is the first time she has ever opened her mouth about her christians beliefs before in all her years. She told me she wished she could live her life all over again.

I now have a 91 year old 'deconvert' living in the same house as me.

I asked my husbands permission to make this post tonight about his mom and he laughed and said, 'go ahead...your gang will get a big charge out of it'.

Cute story?

One ecstatic scientist was heard to say "We knew we had the right particle because, despite its very tiny size, it was extremely angry, and it kept demanding we utterly destroy the Amalekites."

mwc

FINALLY!

Today I came out as gay to my parents!

Damn I feel like a ton of bricks is off my back now!

Parent's are fully supportive. We talked for a good few hours. Mom was asking me a ton of questions.

Feel so strange right now. Having opened up like this to them.

Will post more tomorrow. Right now I'm so drained. Need sleep!

Hi, all. This is my first time posting my very own topic, and I apologize if this sort of story is old hat. Thanks for reading my cathartic word jumble!

I grew up in a very conservative Baptist church in the south. Went to youth group and all the Christian summer camps, memorized all the verses and did all the mission trips. Won lots of youth group awards. I mean, I was an obsessive student at school, why wouldn't I be one at church too? I did my devotionals almost every day, prayed, and even tried to model my high school dating relationships on "Biblical principles."

I went away to a Christian-based college at 18 where everyone had to take Old and New Testament survey classes. This is where everything started to fall apart. My professors, though Christians, had studied Greek and Hebrew and textual criticism and wanted us to look at the Bible academically. I was so blown away by the two creation stories, the contradictory histories in Joshua and Judges and between the Gospels, and all the other problematic aspects of the Bible that I decided to become a Religion major just so I could better understand them. I mellowed out in my theology, started reading the Bible as a source of social justice and felt I was "called" to get people to stop being such fundamentalist jerks. I learned Hebrew and Greek, and took theology and philosophy classes. I worked as a youth leader for 2 summers at a Baptist church (despite my female-ness and nose ring!) and tried to teach the kids to think critically about the text and to just be really good to people. During all this time my church attendance was pretty sporadic. I didn't really feel the need for any church fellowship when I was taking so many religion classes with awesome people.

After college I got into the graduate religion department at a prestigious American university to study the Hebrew bible. The divinity school there was multi-religion and extremely ecumenical. I met and became friends with Jews, Humanists, Muslims, and a myriad of adherents to various Christian denominations. I decided to become Episcopalian because they seemed the most social justice oriented and allowed gay people and women to be priests. I thought this was my happy medium. But as I delved deeper into the textual study of the Hebrew Bible, I realized that the text was more than just a little problematic. I mean, there are MULTIPLE Hebrew words whose meanings we can only guess at! I took a class studying and translating the Dead Sea Scrolls and realized, "Damn, we really don't know what a lot of this actually says." I took classes doing feminist and womanist and LGBT and Liberation interpretations of the text, but still the Bible taunted me with its dickishness. It often took so much work to make the Bible not say terrible things. But I couldn't stand the thought of it saying terrible things!

Over time, I found myself both more and more troubled by the concept of God and at the same time just not caring any more. It was truly exhausting to try to stick up for God/Jesus when the things they did seemed pretty indefensible. Eventually I stopped going to church at all and told myself that I just was taking a break, and that I would consider myself "not religious" for a bit. Then two thoughts came to my mind. 1) How can I believe in a God who is less kind and just than humans are? and 2) If I'm having to work this hard to defend the concept of God and Christianity and to suspend this belief in my mind, maybe this belief isn't worth having. Despite thinking these things I still did not consider myself an atheist or an agnostic, just really not religious.

A few weeks ago I visited my parents in the south. I went with them to church and it was one of the most depressing things I experienced in a long time. All these truly kind people believing truly stupid and cruel things. When I got back from the trip I realized that I was more than "not religious," I was an agnostic/atheist (still researching to find where I actually fit). And now I am more pissed than ever. HOW ON EARTH can these "pastors" and "priests" who actually studied the text stand there and lie to their congregations every week? I give the congregations more of a pass, but if you have studied the actual language of the Bible and still believe it to be infallible, you are an idiot and a liar. I can't deal with it. And now I sit and simmer as my Facebook is constantly populated with idiotic Christian sayings and verses and ideals.

I am so angry. But I don't want to be. So here I am to blow off steam and read other Ex-Christians' experiences and to rebuild my philosophy for living.

If you've made it to the end, you are a trooper. So thanks.

about a week after my public "coming out" my husband told me last night, he no longer believes in the xtian god!

He says he still thinks there is some kind of higher being, but he not the god of the bible

I think seeing the negative reactions of xtians plus my conversations with him a long the way (he's never been in the dark about my thoughts or feelings, even when we didn't agree, we talked) probably helped him to see xtianity for what it is.

He's been reading my posts and the replies here as well, so I think that probably helped. Anyways, I'm happy to be on this journey with him and glad we can see eye to eye on how to raise our kids. Just wanted to share the good news!

For those of you who know of me and my deconversion/church exit, you know the stories of my crazy church and subsequent "shunning." It's not an official doctrine by any means, but I'm definitely on the outside, deliberately excluded from family and was on the end of some pretty vitriolic and nasty messages.

In my tradition, we go to church twice on sundays and do not do anything else... the major sin is to spend money. I'm not sure why, but we're not allowed to work professionally (unless your role is deemed "urgent services" like doctors, nurses, ems, etc.) And absolutely you don't go shopping, eat out or spend money on entertainment. Well, I quit church in March; I obviously don't subscribe to any of that any more.

Today, I went to a baseball game with some friends (Jays vs. Yankees; Jays lost... boo, I'm Canadian). I posted a picture on facebook titled "sunday funday"... now, don't get me wrong. Part of me knew it would bother some people I know from "then".. .part of me just wanted to stop hiding. I'm tired of having to walk on eggshells to not offend people because they're upset that I'm different.

I really didn't think anyone would say anything... but my aunt commented:
"Nope, Sunday a day of rest and comunion with the church and God"

I initially responded with something along the lines of "well, I respect that..." but then a friend made a personal comment to me about how weird my aunt's comment was.

I suddenly got really angry because it's true... I put up with a lot of this bullying bullshit from my family and it's rude to me and it's rude to my 100s of non-or-other-religious friends.

I responded:
"You know what? This might not be the place to put this, but I have gotten A LOT of not-so-nice comments, emails, letters/cards and non-verbal messages from people because they are offended and/or displeased that I don't go to church. NEVER EVER have I told ANYONE that they should not go to church, NEVER EVER have I commented on any of my friends' fb or elsewhere (friends, I might note, who are from all walks of faith and life) telling them that they should lead their lives a different way (especially without backing it up with care and concern) and NEVER EVER EVER would I dream of putting on one of their religious/church-related pictures that they should be living their lives differently. I find it rude and insulting (to both my non or different-than-you religious friends and myself), judgmental and unnecessary and I'm really tired of it. If my life offends you, delete me. If you want to debate with me, debate with me. If you want to ask me why I've made the choices I've made, ask me. Until then, I can say that I live my life with honesty, integrity and truth. I make MANY mistakes, which I try to learn from, and I'm far from perfect. But I love and ask to be loved. I will accept you, and ask to be accepted. If that's too much for you, I understand. Know that I will ALWAYS love and accept you..."


I know it was a bit overkill in response to her message... but I also know my tradition and I read the pettiness in her message. Also, it's one piled onto many others... and kind of my breaking point.

I'm pretty anxious cause this is my first "public" note on the topic and I dealt with a lot of nastiness from people already. I'm going to be pretty anxious when checking fb over the next few days... but on the other hand, I'm tired of "hiding."

Anyway, just wanted to vent. Thanks!

This is another one of those days at church...

Today we were sitting there listening to the lesson, well i was day dreaming, but they were listening. Well they start talking about the whole Chick-Fil-A business, then they moved to Islam, then they moved to the subject of tolerance, by the time i got out of there i was ready to kick a bible across the room, stomp on it and then tell them to fuck themselves.

It started off by some ass hat ( as i said in another thread) saying he would go to chick fill A and buy a sandwich, then go stand in front of the protesters and eat it... in their face, how christian of you. This really got me pissed just because of the bigotry. That got them on the issue of homosexuality, of course they said it was a choice and what not but they moved into the subject of tolerance. To these bunch of ass hats, Christianity is the ONLY RELIGION told to be tolerant of others.

WTF? You honestly think your the only religion told to be tolerance, the morons brought up Islam and said no one tells them to be tolerant, Are you serious? we are fighting an entire war trying to enforce a kind of tolerance on Islam and you think Christianity is the one persecuted? You think your the only one being told to submit in America?

How can you be so fucking stupid to sit there and say Christianity is so persecuted when your GOD IS ON OUR FUCKING MONEY. WHEN YOUR CHURCHES POPULATE EVERY CORNER. WHEN YOUR COMMANDMENTS OF "MORALITY" PLAGUE OUR COURTROOMS. WHEN I WAKE UP EVERY FUCKING MORNING AND HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT CHRIST AND YOUR THE MINORITY? YOUR TAX FREE, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND YOUR TAX FREE, THE GOVERNMENT JUST HATES YOU RIGHT? YOUR PREACHERS ARE ON THE ADVISORY COUNCIL OF OUR PRESIDENTS. YOUR BIBLES ARE IN OUR HOTELS, YOUR RELIGION FLIES ACROSS THE AIRWAVES. YOUR GOD IS IN OUR PLEDGE THAT NON-CHRISTIANS MUST HEAR EVERYDAY. YOUR THE ONLY RELIGION IN AMERICA ABLE TO DENY COMMON HUMAN RIGHTS TO OTHERS AND GET AWAY WITH IT, FOR NO OTHER REASON OTHER THAN, IT "OFFENDS YOU."

So persecuted, so tormented, o woe is the poor Christian, o woe is you, you think your told to be tolerant? How about when I, an atheist, must hide myself because i will be harrased, or when plans for a new mosque in your city show up and you come to protest? Or when an atheist family must run away from their lives out of fear of death from their community when they exercise their free speech. They're so ignorant of the world, so stupid, they sit on some kind of high horse and act like they have some higher understanding, like they understand the world but they would not be able to find their head if it wasn't stuck up their ass. I want to say something so bad, i want to just stand up for once, I almost blew up today and i fear soon i might and i hope i do.

As some of you know, i still go to church with my wife since she is still a believer. Well just a few minutes ago I walked out do to the absolute repugnance and disgust I felt. Instead of the usual sermon, they're having a missionary speak today. He had his own video they played on all the screens before he came up to speak.

It starts with showing smiling faces, kids playing, lovers kissing, etc from different middle eastern country peoples. About every 30 seconds it cuts away to show a ticker that is slowly counting upwards, but getting progressively faster. 50...100...1000...2300...etc. after showing all these beautiful people, who for all intents and purposes are just normal people going about their day to day, at the end of the clip the number stops on 6501 or something like that. And underneath it says "the number of Muslims that died and went to hell today". I almost LOST it.

I almost got up right then but I stayed, only for my wife. But I was holding her hand, and immediately dropped it, she could tell I was pissed. After this ignorant fucker gets up there and is talking for a few minutes, he starts showing pictures of actual people. "This is Muhammad. His father was a muslim, but he died and is in hell. This is his grandfather. He was a Muslim, he is in hell. And on and on. This is Fatima. She accepted Jeezus and they cut off her tongue and killed her, but now she's praising the Lard with her new tongue in heaven. Praise the lawd!!

So I turn to my wife and say, " I'm not going to listen to this judgemental bullshit". And walk the F out. I'm in my car right now wondering how long she'll sit thru the indoctrination session. I fucking HATE missionaries.

Just got off the phone with my Cardiologist.

 

Um, I don't need a transplant anymore. In fact, they want to do surgery and close the hole in my heart and reroute some of the veins.

 

I recently had a Heart Cath to measure the pressures in my lungs and the left and right sides of my heart, and my Cardiologist is fucking amazed. All of my pressures are pretty fucking close to normal.

 

I am literally an unprecedented medical abnormality. What's happened to me does not happen to anyone ever. I'm on a couple of trial drugs [Tyvaso and Letaris] and apparently that shit fucking works.

 

Let me put it this way, when I was admitted to the hospital, I was not expected to leave until after I'd had a transplant, if I survived that long. My current equipment was expected to completely fail in a year or two at most. I had a heart cath around the beginning of November, and I literally died on the operating table, shortly after I died again in a hospital bed. Both times I was revived.

 

Two months later, just after Christmas, I was doing well enough to get a discharge. I was told I still needed a transplant, but that if I continued on as I was I could expect to delay it for several years. The medications were stabilizing me better than expected, and they were hoping it would continue for a while and that I could squeeze out a couple of more years by delaying transplant as long as possible. I was not anywhere near to normal mind you, but well enough I could get through daily life if I didn't push myself.

 

Now, today, I'm told that my pressures are on the high end of normal. Not just in part of my heart, or just in my lungs. Across the board. They want to do surgery and fix the hole in my heart. In a month or two, I should be in better condition than I've ever been in my life. Huh?

 

I had to get him to repeat that a couple of times just to be sure I was hearing it right.

 

The right side of my heart will never be completely normal again, but if things go as planned, it's a very real possibility that it could get damn close to normal...I'm possibly looking at what could only be described as pretty much full recovery.

 

Seriously. I'm an Atheist, and I've got what amounts to a miracle cure. It's awesome.

 

I do have to have major heart surgery, which sucks...sort of. Bear in mind I've been repeatedly told that they were going to rip out my entire respiratory system and put in one that they cut out of someone else just before they died, and that after that my life expectancy was about five fucking years after that. Can you imagine what it's like to be relieved by someone telling you that you're going to have open heart surgery? It's seriously weird.

 

I'm not out of the woods yet, I've still got to be careful, and open heart surgery is obviously risky. However, it's still less risky than staying in my current condition and having a transplant later.

 

I'm not quite sure what to do yet, it's fucking epic that this is even a possibility. Nothing is scheduled yet but an MRI, and then I have to schedule a dentist appointment, but it will probably all happen within a month or two. Not sure yet, but it sounds like they want to do it very soon. I humored thoughts of this nature before, but never believed that it might actually happen. Doctors repeatedly told me that there wasn't any real chance that it would happen. This sort of recovery was extremely unlikely.

 

Yet, here I am, and near as I can tell, it's actually happening.

 

I'm not sure what to think about it all just yet.

 

Don't worry, this hasn't changed my opinion of God.

 

Science and Modern Medicine is fucking awesome.

I am new here so forgive me for being so bold to start a new thread already but I have to get this off my chest today...

 

I am originally from a fundy Calvinist church. All of my family still goes there. I have a cousin who married a guy and promptly settled down and did the Calvinst thing by having 6 kids in short order. He was a teacher in the local private, Calvinist school and they attended church twice each Sunday and prayed to God 3-10 times per day. 

 

God responded.

 

By giving him brain cancer last year at the ripe old age of 37. Oh - and yesterday God killed him for good, leaving his widow with 6 kids and all alone to figure this life out.

 

How did his family respond? Here's a quote from Facebook today:

 

I am safe in the arms of the Father
I'm safe in the arms of the Father
I'm resting in Your embrace

I know Your love will never fail

 

And another;

 

I lift my hands to believe again

You are my refuge, You are my strength
As I pour out my heart
These things, I remember
You are faithful, God, forever

 

I'm sorry to be so crass but WTF?! Do Christians really, truly believe this stuff or do they post this to show how faithful they are? Why does God always win? I put it to my wife this way;

 

Imagine that my daughter is told that she has a father (me) but she never actually meets me. I have millions of dollars and access to the best medicine - including cures for cancer. Her whole life she's taught that I love her and that I want nothing more than to have a perfect, loving relationship with her. She never ever actually meets me but she has my email address and emails me many times per day. She also phones me and leaves me many, many messages on my answering machine. 

 

I never ONCE reply to her.

 

Over the years she works hard and earns a degree. She thanks me for "helping her" earn it. She thanks me for watching over her. She ask me for forgiveness because sometimes she doubts my love. She begs me to show myself to her. She gets married and thanks me at her wedding for "being there". She gets healthy children and again thanks me for "all my help". 

 

She gets brain cancer and begs me to cure her. She leaves my hundreds and hundreds of emails and phone calls, crying and pleading with me to please, please, please come to her assistance. I have the cure. I can cure her. I have the money and the medicine. Her family and friends email and call me too. They all beg me to save her "for the sake of her family". They promise me many things in return for this one, small favor.

 

I never ONCE reply to any of them.

 

My daughter dies. She dies in the middle of yet another phone call to me, pleading for my help. She dies in agony with her whole family standing around her hospital bed.

 

I do absolutely NOTHING.

 

I have to ask - does this make me a father whose "love will never fail" or who is "faithful forever"?! Again - WTF?! If I behaved like the father I just described who completely ignores his suffering child would I not be a complete psychopath?

 

Anyone who praised and thanked me for my love and assistance needs some serious counciling services to sort out their appalling cognitive dissonance. This is what makes me scared of Christianity and religion in general. This is what makes me convinced it's more harmful than not. Anything that can make people so subverted and so dependant on a tyrant ruler God who does absolutely nothing for them needs to be brought into the light of reason and awareness no matter what the cost.

 

This is what makes me an anti-theist rather than just an atheist.

 

Sorry for the rant. I had to say it and don't have peeps that'll understand like you folks!

I'm a massage therapist, which means I spend a lot of time in a room with a total stranger enveloped by elevator music.

Occasionally, I'll have a particularly religious client who sees it as an opportunity to quiz me about my beliefs and recommend I give theirs a try. Thankfully, it doesn't happen often.

But Thursday, I had a return client who I hadn't seen in a while. Apparently, we had previously discussed my lack of faith, although I don't remember it, and he must have brought it up, because I never start spiritual discussions w/clients.

Anyway, he asked if I was going anywhere on my spiritual journey and I said no, not lately. I've taken a break from doing any spiritual reading, although I read The Four Agreements a while back and really liked it.

Then came the insufferable question: "Have you ever thought of just reading the bible?"

Me: I've read it

Him: What parts have you read?

Me: all of it

Him: Old testament and new?

Me: yes, it was required reading.

Him: I find it's always better when you read something because you WANT to. Maybe give it another try.

Me: I don't think I'm going to be reading the bible any time soon.

He went on to recommend a book by Rick Warren's wife ( even as a christian, I found The Purpose Driven Life boring. I'm not a fan) and told me he would be praying for me.

I was very professional and polite and when I got home, I beat my head against a wall (figuratively).

It's like Christians CANNOT COMPREHEND someone reading the bible thoroughly, being completely immersed in Christianity and church culture and then saying "Nah, it's not for me."

Sir, I'm not an atheist for lack of Christian experience. As a teenager I was praying for an hour a day and reading the bible daily BY CHOICE. I led a students for christ group at school for 5 years. I did my share of fasting, leading church music, praying, teaching, and witnessing because I so badly wanted god to like me.

I not only tithed, but I gave thousands of dollars of my own money to missions work as a teenager. No, I did not ask others to donate to my missions fund. I worked at a restaurant and gave my hard-earned money so that missionaries could have the latest vehicles. Stupid, I know, but there's no end to what a brainwashed teen will do.

So don't treat me like I didn't give Christianity a fair shake, cause honey, I gave it more than you could ever imagine and it wasn't fucking worth it. So back off before I put too much pressure on the wrong vertebre and throw your back out!

The more I'm on this site, the more I am learning that we don't really even need to tear the bible scriptures to peices to prove that christianity is false and dosen't work.

Just read the testamonies of people who have joined this site and read their life stories, including mine. Lives filled with beautiful people who suffer depression and mental disorders, money failures, anger, repressed sexuality, abuse thoughtout the years, job failures, chaos, marrigae failures, ones who needed physical and mental healing, dear ones who begged god for help and on and on.........All while in the church!!

......a lot of unanswered prayer.....with just enough little 'reprieves' and ecstacy in the services, to keep us hooked - that there really was a loving, caring god out there somewhere.......

I don't care how happy they sit there and pretend to be!! Cause that's what it takes - a lot of pretending!! For fuck sake - we had depression support groups going at our church to help us build 'bigger faith'!! They used to tell us, 'Don't quit till the miracle happens!'' Yeah...right.

I know one man personally (very close family member) who has prayed his whole entire life for god to remove the homosexual feelings that he has lived with his whole life. He has not been in a relationship for 40 years because he chooses not to have sex because of the guilt.......

Where is this god who would gladly take this 'desire' away from him if it's such a horrible thing? Why hasn't his ernest prayer been answered?

Because christianity is false, that's why. We don't need to tear the bible apart to see if Genesis or Revelation is true.... we just need to look around at all the 'hidden depression' and failure in the church.
And this is what jesus died for??....

I sat for years in the church waiting for this god to show up and help me make my life work. Now, I read about the suffereing of hundreds of others on this site!

Yesterday, I ran smack dab, face to face into my last pastor and his 'puppet on a string' wife and he asked me if I was going to a certain church and would I like to get together for dinner sometime? With every ounce of courage I could muster up, I said, (kindly, but firmly) ''You and I have nothing in common anymore, pastor - I am proud to announce to you today that I am a born again atheist and I've never been happier in my life - I am so thankful that I don't have to serve or pray to your invisable god anymore''!

He was dumfounded.. so was I......
I told him it was nice to see him and I exited......just like that!!

I'm so happy I don't believe that shit anymore!!

I thought maybe this might be a good place to write a little 'memorial' on someone you've lost in your life. A person or animal that you loved. Write out your favorite memories and share them with the friends on EX-c! Write your thoughts. Death is such a powerful 'sting' and sometimes it feels better when we remember the good times.

The death of someone (or animal) precious to us, affects us all different.

If you wish to write about a loved one or animal that you have lost, and can't find this thread - just write 'memorial' in the search box and it should come up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I want to write about my sister today. The death of my sister was the true beginning of me losing my religion and faith in a powerful god.

Today, Feb. 22nd, I would like to acknowledge my beautiful sister. She died 15 years ago today. This is a date I will never forget because it totally changed the course of my life. I lived in a 'bubble' for many years thinking that death could happen to your sister, brother, mother, father or friend, but not in my world. I thought I was protected.To recieve this news was the single most devestating day in my life.

There was just the two of us growing up. She was kind, beautiful and funny as hell. She was only 11 months younger than me. For one month each year, we were the same age and we always got such a kick out of it! Everybody called her and I chinese twins! We shared the same double bed for 18 years. We sang 'duets' together for years. We were quite the musical family. Christmas mornings were the most exciting time...she was dark haired and I was blonde. We got a doll every year - her's was the dark hair and mine was the blonde. Mom bought us dolls right up to age 25!! Every year, mom would buy the dolls for us!! It became a joke, but we loved it!

She was the love of my life and right to this very moment of writing, I miss her desperately . She was my best friend. We hung out together in the same gang, right up to the day she died of a brain aneurysm.

I never could understand how god would take her from her two young children.One of the hardest facts I had to face in the last year of my deconversion, was probably the fact that I may never see her again. I lived in the hope that we would all meet again in heaven. This was one of the hardest things when deconverting.

I just want to remember my beautiful sister today. I was so lucky and I feel so grateful that she was a huge part of my life. I wish today, I could wave a magic wand and have her back.... I grieve you, my beautiful sister, to this very day.

To my wonderful sister 1955-1997.......I loved you with all my heart and today I will try and live the way you wanted me to live..... happy and free.

I'll pray for you because that's the nicest way of saying I'll do nothing.

 

 

 

The temptation to end it with, "So fuck you." was almost unbearable, but I persevered.

Nothing pisses me off more than liars. I am calling your bluff. You know NOTHING about ancient literature except what you have been fed by apologists. You insult every scholar, archaeologist and historian who has ever worked in the fields of ancient history, linguistics, even genetics. Your fallacious and ignorant ideas about your precious book has little support in the real world.

 

"Actually, I have done more homework on this subject than I ever have before."

 

Really?.. I don't believe you because you show a glaring lack of knowledge in your baseless assertions of ancient literature. So no, you haven't. You lie.

 

"The bible is older," 

Than what? And NO, IT'S NOT. There are other older texts out there... WAY older - in the original (cuneiform tablets by the thousands - many not even deciphered yet, Egyptian hieroglyphics carved in stone and written on papyri), quite a few actually.

 

All these are older than the Torah: Some by thousands of years.

 

Early Bronze Age:

 

2600 BCE Sumerian texts from Abu Salabikh, including the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh temple hymn

 

2600 BCE Akkadian Legend of Etana

 

2400 BCE Egyptian Pyramid Texts, including the Cannibal Hymn

 

2400 BCE Sumerian Code of Urukagina

 

2400 BCE Egyptian Palermo stone

 

2350 BCE Egyptian The Maxims of Ptahhotep

 

2270 BCE Sumerian Enheduanna's Hymns

 

2250-2000 BCE Sumerian Earliest stories in the Epic of Gilgamesh

 

2100 BCE Sumerian Curse of Agade

 

2100 BCE Sumerian Debate between Bird and Fish

 

2050 BCE Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu

 

2000 BCE Egyptian Coffin Texts

 

2000 BCE Sumerian Lament for Ur

 

2000 BCE Sumerian Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta

 

1950 Akkadian Laws of Eshnunna

 

Middle Bronze Age:

1950 BCE Akkadian Laws of Eshnunna

 

1900 BCE Sumerian Code of Lipit-Ishtar

 

1900 BCE Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh

 

1850 BCE Akkadian Kultepe texts

 

1800 BCE Egyptian Story of Sinuhe (in Hieratic)

 

*1800 BCE Sumerian Eridu Genesis

 

*1800 BCE Akkadian Enûma Eliš  (*these two are where the hebrews got their creation myth from - which goes back to the original story from 2200 BCE Sumerian stories)

 

1800 BCE Akkadian Atra-Hasis epic

 

1780 BCE Akkadian Code of Hammurabi stele

 

1780 BCE Akkadian Mari letters, including the Epic of Zimri-Lim

 

1750 BCE Hittite Anitta text

 

1700 BCE Egyptian Westcar Papyrus

 

1650 BCE Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus

 

Late Bronze Age:

1700-1100 BCE Vedic Sanskrit: approximate date of the composition of the Rigveda. (Oh looky - the Hindus show up)

 

1600 BCE Hittite Code of the Nesilim

 

1500 BCE Akkadian Poor Man of Nippur

 

1550 BCE Egyptian Book of the Dead

 

1500 BCE Akkadian Dynasty of Dunnum

 

Gee whiz, where are the Hebrews in all this history?

 

1400 BCE Akkadian Marriage of Nergal and Ereshkigal

 

1400 BCE Akkadian Autobiography of Kurigalzu

 

1400 BCE Akkadian Amarna letters

 

1330 BCE Egyptian Great Hymn to the Aten

 

1240 BCE Egyptian Papyrus of Ani, Book of the Dead

 

1200 BCE Akkadian Tukulti-Ninurta Epic

 

Iron Age:

1200-1100 BC approximate date of books RV 1 and RV 10 in the Rigveda  (The Hindus again)

 

1200-800 BC approximate date of the Vedic Sanskrit Yajurveda, Atharvaveda

 

1050 BC Egyptian Story of Wenamun

 

1050 BC Akkadian Sakikkū (SA.GIG) “Diagnostic Omens” by Esagil-kin-apli

 

1050 BC The Babylonian Theodicy of Šaggil-kīnam-ubbib.

 

1000-600 BC Chinese Classic of Poetry (Shījīng), Classic of Documents (Shūjīng) (authentic portions), Classic of Changes (I Ching)

 

Where are the Hebrews again?

 

The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts date to about the 2nd century BCE...

 

"has many more authors"... 

 

So.. it's a collection of books.  what's your point? It's also been revised many many times... Karen Armstrong has a good book on this, "The History of the Bible". and they still couldn't get it right - it's rife with contradictions.

 

"and spans thousands of years,"

 

the Rig Vedas also span thousands of years, actually more than the bible, so what?

 

"and can be verified as true in almost every regard," 

No it can't... and it hasn't. Even apologists would disagree with you here. True as in the Exodus? Never happened.. not one iota of archaeological or historical evidence exists to support that claim.. not one.

 

"more so than any other book, more so with those dating back even a fraction of the bible, and we have more copies of the bible than any other historic book."

 

I've dealt with the dating above... and of course we have more copies. The Catholic Church has made a living off of copying biblical texts—had entire monasteries devoted to it. Most copies were made after 200AD. The largest proportion probably after 800AD, your point?

 

I mean, these words were written down well before paper.

 

You are seriously an historical ignoramus. Do you even know who invented paper? Do you have any conception of the historical timeline of.. anything? (based in reality?)

 

"Paper, and the pulp papermaking process, was said to be developed in China during the early 2nd century AD by the Han court eunuch Cai Lun, although the earliest archaeological fragments of paper derive from the 2nd century BC in China"

 

"For a long time the Chinese closely guarded the secret of paper manufacture and tried to eliminate other Oriental centers of production to ensure a monopoly. However in 751 A.D. the T'ang army was defeated by the Ottoman Turks at a mighty battle at the Talas River. Some Chinese soldiers and paper makers were captured and brought to Samarkand. The Arabs learned the paper making from
the Chinese prisoners and built the first paper industry in Baghdad in 793 A.D. They, too, kept it a secret, and Europeans did not learn how to make paper until several centuries later. The Egyptians learned the paper making from the Arabs during the early 10th century. Around 1100 A.D. paper arrived in Northern Africa and by 1150 A.D. it arrived to Spain as a result of the crusades and established the first paper industry in Europe."

source - http://www.silk-road...permaking.shtml

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written on parchment.(inner lining of goatskin) Around 150 — 200BC.  These are the oldest existing documents we have of the Hebrew texts.

 

Can you show me even one book that comes close to the diversity, age, and factual points found true than what the bible has to say. I think not. There is none.

 

What factual points found true? Talking donkeys? Vague assertions with no support. The rest is dealt with above. You lie.

 

You take for truth books a fraction of the bibles age written by one author with few copies yet throw the bible as trash. Honestly, have you done your homework? There is none other that comes
close to comparing."

 

What 'books' are you referring to that we take as truth?

 

I don't know one person here that swallows anything without investigation... no matter who wrote what.

 

You are making a fool of yourself with your incredible lack of knowledge of ancient history and literature.. and you lie. Yes, I have done my homework... I'm an art historian. hmmm... there is a decided lack of Hebrew art, including literature, in the ancient middle-east. However... there is TONS of it from Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc... There are some people, just on this website alone, that could mop the floor with your 'knowledge' with their eyes closed and one hand behind their backs.. because we cared enough to seek the truth no matter how uncomfortable it was, and we did our friggin' homework... my 14 year old daughter knows more about history than you do.

 

You are a liar.