Why The Gospels Are Errant

[Heimdall]

For some reason the Christ Cultists persist on insisting that the NT is accurate and inerrant. In a recent discussion on another website, I challenged a particularly vehement Cultist asshole to tell me when Jesus was born. His response was a cut and paste monstrosity from numerous Christian websites and never really set forth a date that I could grab onto. This is my response. It has been 4 days now and no rebuttal, he found other friendlier fields to play in. I used material from my Censuses and Taxation posting and then spelled out why the gospels were not inerrant:

 

The problem with your posting (I really can’t figure when you think Jesus was born), other than it is a mish-mash of “cut and paste”, is that you are going to Christian sources that quote Christian sources from nearly a third of a millennium after the fact. If you had gone to the historic records and writing of persons that lived during that period, you would have discovered that with the Romans, censuses were conducted for purposes of taxation and In his account of the major events of his life, Augustus wrote that he conducted official censuses in 28 BCE, 8 BCE, 6 CE and 14 CE. Dio Cassius the Roman historian wrote that in 6 CE Caesar Augustus set up a fund to benefit the Roman military and had kings and certain communities contribute to it. He also made a sizable contribution and promised to do so each year. When this did not provide sufficient funds to keep the military going, he issued a worldwide decree that there would be a 5% inheritance tax on estates/inheritances, something beyond normal taxation. Such taxation would require a census to register transferable assets, such as land, and to record genealogies to establish “very near relatives” (Roman History LV 25:5-6).

Josephus noted the effects of this decree in Judea: “Now Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to be a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance. Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews. Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus' money; but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any further opposition to it." (Antiquities. XVIII 1:1). He further reported "a certain Galilean, whose name was Judas, prevailed with his countrymen to revolt; and said they were cowards if they would endure to pay a tax to the Romans, and would, after God, submit to mortal men as their lords." (Wars II 8:1). In Antiquities XX 5:2, he wrote of "Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews." As Josephus noted, Caesar’s 5% tax was to be on estates/inheritances of all but the poor and near relatives, not on the people.

 

The census attached to this taxation was also noted by Luke: "Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away some people after him, he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered." (Acts 5:37) This shows that Luke was speaking of the same census/taxation as Josephus, the 6 CE census/taxation conducted under Cyrenius (P. Sulpicius Quirinius).

 

A listing of the Governors of Syria from 10 BCE to 7 CE are as follows:

BCE 10-9 M. Titius

BCE 9-6 Gaius Sentius Saturninus

BCE 6-3 P. Quinctilius Varus

BCE 3-1 L. Calpurnius Piso

BCE 1-4 CE Gaius Julius Caesar

4-6 CE L. Volusius Saturninus

6-7 CE P. Sulpicius Quirinius

The individual that served in the period of 6 – 3 BCE, P. Quinctillus Varus has often been claimed by Christians to the the “Cyrenius” of the NT, even though Quinctillus sounds nothing like Cyrenius (Greeks were noted for at least getting close to the sound of a name) and there was not a census decreed by Caesar Augustus during that period. The ironic fact is that during the campaigns of P. Sulpicius Quirinius (the real Cyrenius), Quinctillus served as a subordinate officer under his command.

 

In order to ascertain the birth date of Jesus, several parameters must be met:

Matthew reports that the birth was during the reign of Herod the Great (died 4 BCE) and Luke reports that the birth was during the census decreed by Caesar Augustus during the tenure of Quirinius as Governor of Syria (prior to the death of Herod, Judea was not part of Syria, but instead a “patron” state) and Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist (reported by Luke to have started his mission in the “fifteenth year of Tiberius reign, which would be 28 CE and reported by Josephus as having been executed by Herod in 36 CE – which in itself is a problem). He would have been tried before Pontius Pilate and executed by his troops, according to Roman records and Josephus, Pilate served from 26 CE to 36 CE, being recalled to Rome in 36 CE. If these parameters can’t be met, then it is demonstrated that the gospels are in extreme error and will remove your claim of the value of the bible as a historical report.

 

If Jesus was born during Herod’s reign, then he would have been born prior to 2 BCE, but there was no census decreed by Caesar Augustus after 8 BCE until 6 CE, plus at that time Cyrenius was not the governor of Syria. If Jesus had been born any time prior to the death of Herod, then he would have been 30 years old and starting his ministry prior to John the Baptist and would have been crucified prior to John being executed by Herod, so clearly we can rule out Matthew as having the correct information. If Jesus had been born in the year 1 CE, he would have come to John to be baptized in 30 CE, the second year of John’s ministry. But he would have been crucified 4 years before John was executed by Herod and the gospels are very specific that John died first. If he had been born during the 6 CE census, then he would have started his ministry the same year that John was executed and would have been executed by someone other than Pontius Pilate, which can rule out Luke as a valid record of history. Hmmmm, now instead of cut and pasting, YOU tell me when Jesus was born, because your bible is nearly worthless as history! - Heimdall

[Mythra]

Damn, Heimdall. Don't hold your breath for that rebuttal.

 

You didn't leave the dude a lot of wiggle room.

 

 

Odd, isn't it - that we have the greatest human being in the history of mankind, and it's impossible to even determine the year of his birth?

 

This shit isn't adding up.

[jrmarlin]

Heimdall, great post!

 

And Mythra is right, you will be turning blue if you ever wait for an answer for that one. I bet even old Chris Vebats couldn't come up with a viable explaination.

 

Now we're really showing the inaccuracies one by one.

 

But of course, you do realize that people like Sub and Chris will probably say you're wrong without offering any evidence whatsoever.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Thanks for a well researched "H-bomb"..

 

Been delivered in idea to a buncha fools who still are trying to argue out from under this rock they find on their backs.

 

Awesome Heimdal, your work well met and appreciated.

 

kL

[Lycorth]

Indeed, Heimdall - well-assembled and well-executed. An engaging little read, and sure to confound any stubborn Xian goat.

[All Gods Fail]

I'm going to have to re-read that - I'm not sure I quite got all the details. But that's a nicely researched and thought-out argument, Heimdall. Maybe it should be pinned?

[thunderbolt]

Shit, that was good. Thanks!

 

Mind if I use some of it in an article - with full credit to your name?

[SkepticOfBible]

For some reason the Christ Cultists persist on insisting that the NT is accurate and inerrant.

 

Our friend Sub_zero is doing exactly that in the colloseum

[Toxic]

For some reason the Christ Cultists persist on insisting that the NT is accurate and inerrant.

The Xtian apologetics remind me of the Monty Python pet shop owner in the "dead parrott" sketch "It's not a contradiction, it's only an apparent contradiction!"

[Asimov]

Fuck the fundies....they're just wasting their lives away for a concept they neither understand nor rationalize in the least. They're stuck asserting that they have faith in a book that has no evidential or rational basis...

[Heimdall]

Mind if I use some of it in an article - with full credit to your name?

The reason I post my little findings here is for all to use in their debates. You can not only use it, but you don't even have to give anyone credit, unless you want to. - Heimdall

[Heimdall]

Something that I ought to add to this little posting is the manner in which we arrive at the dating of John’s death. Josephus appears to imply that John’s death occurred in the year 36 CE, which is 6 years later than given in the NT and well after the accepted date of Jesus’ crucifixion. The dating hinges on the battle between Aretas, King of Petra and Herod. This battle was the result of two different occurrences, the first being a border dispute between Judea and Petra and the second being the divorce of Aretas’ daughter by Herod, in order to marry his brother’s ex-wife Herodias. Daddy Aretas did not take kindly to the Judean “cad” kicking his little girl to the curb for some “painted floozy” that also happened to be a relative by marriage. Josephus reported that the quarrel with Aretas sprang up at about the time Herod’s brother Phillip died (34CE) and that his other brother (Agrippa0 had gone to Rome in 36 CE (the year before the death of Tiberius). Soon after the battle between Herod and Aretas (which totally destroyed Herod’s army), Tiberius ordered the Syrian Governor Vitellius to attack Aretas, whereupon he marched through Judea with his army, pausing in Jerusalem to placate the Jews and to sacrifice at a festival (probably Passover). On the fourth day of his stay in Jerusalem, Vitellius learned of Tiberius’ death on the 16th of March 37 CE. This would put the battle between Aretas and Herod in the winter of 35/36. Indications are that the action by Vitellius against Aretas must have occurred between his campaign against the Parthians, at the behest of Tiberius, and the death of Tiberius. According to Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius, the Parthian war occurred in 35/36 CE. Ironically, Herod assisted Vitellius in negotiations between Tiberius and the Parthian king, Pharaates. This Vitellius is the same Vitellius that removed Pontius Pilate and send him back to Rome sometime in 36CE. - Heimdall

[Amethyst]

Odd, isn't it - that we have the greatest human being in the history of mankind, and it's impossible to even determine the year of his birth?

 

This shit isn't adding up.

 

No kidding. If he's not a completely mythical figure, he's doing a good job of pretending to be one.

[RHEMtron]

good LORD that was nice. and yeah... i agree youll be waiting a long time for a rebuttal.

 

question: you dont by any chance have the references for which you got the info from do you? you understand of course i'd like to check out the facts for myself. of course i believe any info any of my fellow ex-christians post, but i dont want to be like a xtian following blindly to whatever their church leaders tell em nah mean.

 

nevermind... i somehow skipped some of the middle section to the post. i see the dates of the rulers. ill check em out and do the math!!

[Mythra]

I'm not one to accept everything I'm told (at least not anymore)

 

But I can tell you that, in the time I've been here - I've learned that you don't have to double-check Heimdall for accuracy.

 

He evidently didn't graduate from the Eusebian School.

[RHEMtron]

forgive me cause i dont know my history of rulers very well.... but am i stupid for wondering if there were 2 herods or something? i never understood how herod died while jesus was still young but then they mention herod later for executions of john and stuff and stuff. were they talking about herod's son?

 

i mean that's a big error if theyre talking of the same herod. if it is the error i think it is, howthehey could every christian over look that?

[Heimdall]

There were several Herods. Herod the Great was the last King of Judea, he died around 4 BCE. His son Herod Antipas was the Tetarch of Judea (this is the Herod that had John the Baptist iced), he died in 39 CE. The other Herods (Herod Phillip and Herod Agrippa) were sons of Antipas' brothers and never really amounted to much. Your confusion is common. All these Herods, almost as bad as Ramses in Egypt. - Heimdall

[Flyby Stardancer]

Maybe it should be pinned?

I agree!!

[YDOAPS]

as do i

 

 

i posted something similar on christianityforums.net: http://christianityforums.com/cgi-bin/ulti...0509;p=0&r=npwm

 

 

i got some nice responces from "bella"

[jrmarlin]

as do i

 

 

i posted something similar on christianityforums.net: http://christianityforums.com/cgi-bin/ulti...0509;p=0&r=npwm

 

 

i got some nice responces from "bella"

 

Did you see the language those idiots were using? Hmmmmmm Christians huh? Bullhshit.... so when did this become acceptable vocabulary for Christians following the good news?

 

I think it's hilarious that they are so defensive. Defensiveness is a sign that they don't believe their religious faith is real. When they said, "Nobody really cares." In regards to the birth and existence of Jesus, it's very telling. They don't care if this person they worship ever existed. Hmmmm, I think that is a rule for the Insanity book. Don't you?

 

Thank you, once again I am convinced my anti-christian path was a good path to pursue. Christians prove this point in a multitude of ways. Most excellent...indeed.