Joshpantera

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Joshpantera last won the day on March 16

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About Joshpantera

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    Fire Dragon

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    Florida
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    surfing, paddle boarding, boating, fishing, musicianship, reading, philosophy, biblical criticism, comparative mythology and religion...
  • More About Me
    I was raised in a fundamentalist setting as a child and then went full atheist in my teens while off @ Christian boarding academy. I was very anti-theistic for years and then took interest in comparative mythology and religion and settled down a bit. I Never regained monotheism, instead I ended up rounding myself out as an agnostic-atheist with a philosophical pantheist leaning. My spiritual side is addressed to naturalism and the unity between man, earth, and cosmos as an interconnected whole. As for science, I support it completely.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    Not this, not that

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  1. Another failed doomsday 9/23/2017

    FYI on the rapture doctrine as an unbiblical doctrine and why it's not universally accepted among all christians: https://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-prophecy/the-rapture-a-popular-but-false-doctrine A history of rapture theology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture I've often referred to it as, "The Secret C-rapture."
  2. I had missed this new installment of fundie fantasizing: One of the fall outs from the mythicist position and introducing astrotheology into arguments AGAINST christians, has caused some of these idiots to stop denying that it exists, and instead trying to embrace it while trying to make their own sense of it. The above is an example of how absolutely stupid some of these preachers are and how hard they're trying to own biblical astrotheology and make it work to their advantage in some way. In the spirit of Herald Camping, David Meade pushes his rapture date further back: http://www.newsweek.com/doomsday-conspiracy-theory-david-meade-apocalypse-october-670253 Writing on his website, Meade clarified his belief that the 23rd is the date of a “historical event” in the skies that would signal the oncoming rapture. Doomsday itself, he says, will begin on October 15. Well isn't that special? The fucking idiots, while trying to own astrotheology in the bible, are shooting themselves in the foot left and right. Talk about digging a deeper hole for themselves as they go along. The bottom line, the bible talking about astrological constellations in such books as Revelation doesn't help their literalist causes. It works together with other information to lay bare biblical literalism and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal Jesus, a literal rapture (which has always been unbiblical anyways), nor a literal end of time. The more these guys keep trying to date set and hype the end of the world according the bible, I'd expect the more they'll loose touch with society and ultimately bring closer an end to christian thinking altogether.
  3. Back to Orion, here's a video on the correlation theory: The correspondence's tend to show a conscious effort to build a complex below which mirrored what the astronomer priests observed in the sky. This same type of structuring of society below based on the heavens above filtered down into the Jewish tribal era where the 12 tribes of Israel are numbered according to the 12 constellations of the 12 months. Philo and Josephus both refer to this, as well as the 12 jewels on the breast plate of the high priest representing the 12 constellations of the zodiac. The 12 disciples being 12 in number to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, also points to a representation of the 12 constellations which were always at the base of the structuring of 12 tribes. This trend of trying to always consciously structure society below similar to the observed sky above lasted from who knows when, in deep antiquity, right down the christian era. And a lot of this ancient solar mystery content found it's way into the christian myth making periods. Orion's belt, Sirius, and Virgo being observed the night following the winter solstice being one blatant example. The fascination proceeded Egypt and continued on with a new religion which sought to take of the business of "resurrection" and run with it. I used to wonder what the correspondence was between the Egyptian religion of resurrection and christianity was, because it's very obvious that christianity tried to build upon an already existing idea of resurrection. Murdocks book "Christ in Egypt: The Horus - Jesus Connection" explains those connections very well.
  4. Why Is Modern Pop Music So Terrible?

    Corporate interests have completely changed the music industry. I enjoy watching shows like Live from Daryl's House where he has outlined this problem before. I've also heard the same from Flea from the Red Hot Chili Pepper's. I hope that some grass roots musical revival happens again similar to what we had going on in the early 90's. I was more than ready for it then. I'm more than ready for something similar now....
  5. Is The Fine Tuned Universe (Argument) Leaky..?

    So in this instance, the metaphysical (entire universe) is nothing more than the physical (observable universe) which has 'receded' out of observable view. physical / material (us) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ( edge of observation) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (them) metaphysical / spiritual So what is the implication of this assertion? Both are actually physical, the only difference between one or the other is whether or not we can observe some aspect of the physical within our particular range of observation. If we were to travel far out from the earth, our range of observation would widen. What was previously metaphysical from the vantage point of earth, would become physical upon our ability to observe it. And likewise, to some alien life out there beyond our observable range of the entire universe (them) , we (us) would exist as metaphysical to "them" according to the edge of the universe assertion. But are we metaphysical just because we're out of range for some alien life out there to observe? Even more to the point, is anything metaphysical simply because it's beyond the observational ability of fixed point in space? Are you sure OC is no fool? It looks to me like OC is fool enough to have started digging a deeper hole for himself in the process of trying to get himself out of a hole, a problem quit common to christian thinkers....
  6. The constellations only looking the way they do from earth is something we spoke about before. One of the interesting points to discovering life on another planet would be to see if people evolved similar to the way that we have here on earth, and mythologized their own particular fixed constellations from the view of their own planet into something that resembles things that they would be familiar with. I would think that noticing consistency in the sky and applying that to spiritual and religious beliefs would probably happen anywhere that life emerges in the universe, similar to the way in which it's happened here. I had an idea a long time ago about a sci-fi plot where space travelers do the very thing described above. On this alien planet the space traveler's from earth find that some dominant religion on this alien planet had evolved with some similar type of hero mythology character like Jesus. And our space travelers would find themselves thrown into a controversy where the alien people were learning that their hero was simply a collage of things and orchestrated to represent their local star in the same way Jesus is a solar hero figure. Just one of those movies that would make people think when they watch. Let people figure out the parallels being suggested. This alien mythic hero would have a number of followers based on the fixed constellations there on that planet, which could be some number other than 12 for the sake of making it different than earth. The Jesus figure may have 14 disciple / followers, matching the number of fixed constellations in procession with their local star. Another twist is that there could instead be a binary system and the hero for that planet would be these two twin god-men, son's of the highest god who save that planet with eternal life, or something to that effect. And we'd be watching the corrupt religious system based around it's own astrotheological lore about twin saviors, allegorizing the binary star system, failing at the end of it's natural life cycle as being relevant to the people. There's a lot of ways of making key points and drawing parallels to how religion has evolved here on earth from animism and onto astrotheology and the more sophisticated philosophical and theological frameworks, which evolved over time and then began to digress going into the technological age. And are now starring down the possibility of drifting away into insignificance.
  7. The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read

    Well here, let's link the book itself: https://www.amazon.com/Book-Your-Church-Doesnt-Want/dp/0939040158 I'm skimming through the preview. It looks similar to what I've wanted to do in terms of compiling a general overview of a wide range of topics that run contrary to the church's admissions. He throws in some Campbell in the mix. Altogether it looks like a good introductory book for aspiring ex-christians.
  8. Thanks for the question, @SeaJay I think the best answers come from outlining some of the issues I would have to deal with as Murdock's moderator. JP Holding and other's would often visit her forum under hidden screen names and try toying with us. I'd usually respond as such: The night of Christmas Eve starts out at sundown with the 3 belt stars of Orion rising on the southeastern horizon, where the sun will rise Christmas morning. After the sun has risen (to the naked eye, sundials) for three days at the winter solstice, at it's furthest southern point in the southeastern sky, it will rise one degree north after the solstice. This goes way back in terms of the ancients noticing and mythologizing this time of year, which is a marker for the beginning of the sun's journey north ward again and hails the coming of warmer temps and the spring. So the nightly procession of stars was noted as far back as Egypt and likely much earlier. First the three belt stars, then Sirius, the brightest star in the sky which is in the east, then virgo also rises and finally the sun. Three Kings, Magi, Wise men, or Gifts as it were, began the nightly procession of stars and constellations which correspond closely to the christian nativity. The virgin born sun rises in glory behind this procession as it's born anew, and thus begins the next annual solar cycle. So there are key issues dealing with specific constellations that occur in the mythologizing. The three stars of Orion's belt have been associated with the three Pyramids at Giza, the Orion correlation theory of Robert Buvual. And that ties in to the Egyptian antiquity of associations with Orion's belt and the star Sirius. They also go by the "three kings," known to christians from "we three king's of orient are..." Of course the song is referring to the wise men from the east who bring the three gifts to the nativity scene. There's a lot of back ground on this topic, here's a blog entry from DM Murdock. I recommend reading the entire article : http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/star-east-three-kings.html The apologist's who argue that the three kings, magi, wise men, are not numbered have generally faced a weak argument altogether. When you're familiar with the annual Christmas Eve procession of stars and constellations, understand the history and antiquity of ancient star observer's mythologizing the procession well before christianity came along, and then face christianity making use of the same general symbolism and placing their holiday at the same time, the whole thing becomes rather self evident that we have a match going on here. It's the whole procession, in order when looking at the nativity scene which is celebrated on the very night that this procession of stars and constellations takes place every year. And of course there have been commentators along the way who have pointed this correspondence out over the years. It's one of those things that the churches will have to forever argue, regardless of how self evident the whole thing is. Because to admit that they simply copied the pagan sun holiday and claimed it as Jesus' nativity and birth, instead of the sun's, discredits christianity tremendously as far as orthodoxy is concerned. Perhaps a Gnostic thinking christian wouldn't suffer the same blow as an orthodox thinking christian because the mystical ways need not depend on historicity, but christianity today is primarily orthodox and does suffer for it.
  9. Is The Fine Tuned Universe (Argument) Leaky..?

    And also what about the idea of the "end of the universe" against this framework? It would seem to stem that anyone talking about the end of our universe would be speaking within the same context of but one little square of observable universe on the example map. Even if there were some perceived end, would it not only be an end to one small fractional region of the entire universe (possibly infinite) and in the grand scheme not conceivably an "end of the universe" at all? I say that because many scientific commentaries will focus in on the beginning and end of the universe, likely all having been very wrong for having done so. And possibly in need of correction whenever the topic arises.
  10. The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read

    I thought the book your church doesn't want you to read was going to turn out to be about the bible....
  11. Is The Fine Tuned Universe (Argument) Leaky..?

    In short, this doesn't work out any better for them than trying to argue Genesis as literally true....
  12. Burden of Proof

    This doesn't seem too hard to address. But it has to make sense in some context. 1) a positive claim (a) is made. 2) a skeptic (b) asks the positive claim maker (a) to prove it, citing the burden of proof requirement. 3) the positive claim maker (a) diverts to the above, asking the skeptic (b) if they can prove the requirement of the positive claim maker (a) to satisfy the burden of proof, introducing a reverse burden of proof requirement (c). Isn't this simple enough? Should there be no burden of proof requirement resting on the one making positive claims (a)? If so, why not? This is a common sense issue. Any one could claim any thing and everyone would have to blindly accept it as true if there were no reason to ask people making positive claims (a) to prove their claims (b). If we consider CLAIMING positively that positive claims require a burden of proof (c), we can prove that by simply illustrating why this is so. Who's burden of proof does the claim Santa Claus exists rest on, the person making the positive claim of the existence of Santa Claus (a) or the person claiming that the former must prove it (b)? Why even introduce (c) when (b) is self evident, common sense, and more than obvious? The only reason I can think of, is to introduce a red herring thrown at (b). By someone disgruntled over the fact that they carry a burden of proof when positive claim making, and wrongly thinking they have a clever way out of their predicament by introducing (c).
  13. It's weird. But as moderators for DM Murdock both Robert and I have had to confront these odd reactions coming from both atheists and theists alike. I think it comes from a couple places. One being that the bible itself at face value speaks against fortune tellers and mystical types in certain places. And people are generally raised with biases against things like astrology, along with witchcraft and other mystical oriented things. But what they neglect to realize is that the bible also very blatantly makes use of such things at the same time. The real issue comes from the fact that the astrological content has been used by mythicist's to lay out theories on how Jesus may not have existed historically. So automatically all those theists and atheists who are invested in arguing that at least some historical Jesus did exist, will ferociously wave of hand dismiss and deny the astrological content because they see accepting it as loosing ground in some way for their historical Jesus arguments. But as Robert pointed out, originally he thought some historical Jesus did exist, and was responsible for these astrological symbolism teachings in the NT. Either way, Jesus or no Jesus, the astrological content still applies. In fact, when Robert and I met it was over his first visit to Murdock's forums where we bickered back and fourth about whether or not Jesus existed. And after a while Robert looked into it closer and changed his mind about an historical Jesus. As he was saying, the astrological content makes better sense without an historical Jesus at it's core. One great example is the loaves and fishes allegory. People get so hung up on the miracle aspect of the story and never look deeper to the allegorical structure. It's not really even about a miracle, it's a blatant outline of the heavens at that time. And it's central to the gospels because it appears in all four. The fish is pisces and the bread is virgo, by way of spica in virgo representing wheat. The axis of the age change had turned from aries - libra (ram and law) to pisces - virgo (fish and virgin). These old astrological allegories played off of the constellations opposite one another in the circle of the zodiac. Manly P Hall speaks of this in his astrotheology series in a lecture about the old mystery of 5 and 7 which played out in many cultures and which christianity also made use of in this loaves and fishes allegory. And the number sequences have to do with people seeing 5 visible planets, and 2 luminaries which were different than the fixed stars. This is content from the mysteries which has passed down in esoteric circles and is well known to people like Hall in Freemasonry and other mystical fraternal groups. The above gets started what I'm referring to. And he makes his way into relating how this was utilized in christianity after having long been used in many other cultures. Altogether we find an astrological allegory in the loaves and fishes stories which describe the sun, moon, and visible planets (the sacred seven) coming into a new age in pisces - virgo. The entire issue of a miracle and arguing about the miracle of whether or how Jesus fed a multitude with loaves and fishes is a complete false scent when dealing with deconstructing these myths. Theists and atheists will go off the path arguing over things that are ultimately irrelevant to what's actually being said in the myth. This is what Murdock means in the video I posted earlier about going beyond the usual theist and atheist banter. And the need for an academic and scientific based third way of looking at, analyzing and approaching christian mythology. At the bottom (and Robert can certainly add to what I've written above) the loaves and fishes has more to do with a reference about abundance coming into the new age of pisces - virgo back in the remote period when this age change was happening and in the time periods shortly thereafter. We're looking at what was back then a new age cult which was off shooting from Judaism and which was Gnostic in content and symbolic usage. And it all fits together. Paul was Gnostic. The gospels behind Paul have this Gnostic stellar content. It flows through to Revelation. It was present in the OT with Daniel and the prophets. The NT writers were taking what was already described in places of the OT and furthering it. It's just that old astronomer priest language which they were using to pass along content that was essentially part of the ancient mysteries in diverse cultures in the near east and abroad. An astronomer priest could look at something like the loaves and fishes allegory, or the last supper and completely get it. People outside of the priesthoods, would just read a mythological story about magically transforming loaves and fishes to literally feed a multitude. The theists will blindly accept it, the atheists will reject it as nonsense. But all the while the ancient mystery content is both open and obvious for the understanding, and yet concealed from the uninitiated and unaware at the very same time. The whole point of discussing these obscure mystical and astrotheological aspects from Murdock's perspective, is simply to make people aware of it once and for all. Awareness of it can allow people to move on and not remain slaves to ancient and outdated religions. It's ultimately humanitarian to raise and air out these issues.
  14. As such. It really is a "smoking gun" as far as listing the 12 jewels associated with the 12 constellations of the zodiac, but listing them exactly in reverse order, which, is what the precession of the equinoxes is - the zodiac going in reverse order of the annual cycle. The mystical nature of Revelation, along with this astrological symbolism that clearly pairs with mystical belief and writing of the time, is very plain and in our faces obvious. And yet people from various sides will ferociously reject such a suggestion. It's odd, really. I myself never paid attention to things like astrological symbolism, let along decoding astrological symbolism in the bible. But after watching the first ZG movie I became interested. It actually makes a lot of sense that biblical writers were alluding to these things. And also that the general public was more or less oblivious to the content as it was only supposed to be recognized between astronomer priests of the time, being up front and obvious to them one to another.