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About Kushne

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    Lots of things
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    I am trying to leave religion

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
  1. Hello, In my constant attempt to debunk Christians regarding endtime prophecy, I run across new questions. Recently, I was told that the Beast is a governmental system that we will all worship, etc. But, in my reading of Revelation, it seems as if the Beast is designated as a man who will be worshipped. What is correct? I know some of you will say, who cares, or it doesn't matter because none of this is true--and I get all of that. But, I have friends and family who still bug me about all of this-- and have their opinions. I would like to have a "theological" perspective for my counter-arguments. Any good information or what your church taught when you attended on this is greatly appreciated.
  2. Very true. Thanks for giving me some food for thought. It is much appreciated
  3. Yeah--- that is exactly what I am working to do. I promise that I will get there.
  4. I agree the Revelation is a crazy book-- I wish it wasn't even a part of the Bible. It has cause me so much pain and worry in my life.
  5. I was wondering who they might have been based on the thought that Revelation likely provides a view of what occurred during Neros time, with some thinking he was the beast. If so, Enoch, Elijah and Moses failed to show during that time. So, it was someone or something (as mwc describes) else.
  6. Who are the two witnesses talked about in Revelation? Does anybody know? Did they exist in the first century-- if so, who were they?
  7. It looks like you edited your post. Thanks for at least acknowledging that my argument is decent!!! I know that Christians might try to assert that something could be a mark before there is a beast-- but nothing in the cited scripture shows this. I imagine that if my future microchip scenario ever came true, when life continues to go on-- we can then have even more arguments to debunk Revelation and that will be nice. Until then, I have to remind myself that the Bible is crap and so is Revelation.
  8. Sdelsolray-- why do you want to argue with me? What benefit does it provide to you or me? Revelation 13 begins with a beast rising from the sea-- he was given great authority from the dragon. Then he is wounded very badly yet lives-- so people begin to worship him. He talks bad about god, asserts himself as a leader and overcomes all kinds of people. Then a second beast rises up, also with great power but causes everyone to continue to worship the first beast. He even insists that an image of the first beast be created that could speak-- and insists that the people worship the image as well. And he causes or makes everyone get a mark of the first beast. Now according to christians-- the Bible is infallible. So according to the timeline from their own scripture-- the first beast is alive or around before the second beast. Then the second beast arises and causes people to get the mark. Therefore, the beast comes before the mark. Part of my fear is that Christian's try to tell me that the MOTB system is here with the microchips and that if we get one at all, we are doomed. So your question C2, plays exactly in to what they say. Are you trying to scare me? Why would you ask me something like this if you were trying to be encouraging? It seems to me that anything that happens prior to a beast appearing would have nothing to do with said beast. In Chapter 14 and later in Revelation, the mark is always tied to worship of the beast. This also seems to indicate that you would have to have a beast to worship and then want to take his mark. See the scenario that I provided earlier on for an explanation as to why this is important to me.
  9. I think we crossed posts LF. Thank you for what you said. You even validated my interpretation. I appreciate that. I know it is fear-- and I guess I am just in a bad fear cycle that started with Dr. Oz taking about implanted RFID chips. Fear rushed back. Even though I know I shouldn't be afraid, I was. And still am a bit. Even though I don't believe. Crazy I know.
  10. The whole thing is that I don't believe that Revelation will come true. I just want some tools in my toolbox to tell myself when I need them. The Beast having to come before the Mark was one of them. It helped me not fear technology. if the simplest reading of Revelation reads that, why am I wrong?
  11. And the default back to my craziness. Uggh
  12. I am. I am on a number of meds. I tried counseling but didn't really understand religious fears.
  13. That is why this thread is causing me distress!!!
  14. BAA-- no, a house is not solid if it rests on an insecure foundation-- but please understand that people are in different places in how they think. I am being told I need to be more logical. Of course-- the best logic according to everyone on this site is to say that the entire book of Revelation was written about earlier times-- Nero was the beast, all of it was allegorical and was about the Roman empire-- which I don't necessarily disagree with. In fact, I love that idea. However, I have said earlier that I am surrounded by believers, some very close to me-- family, etc. I can't just get rid of them or stop talking to them. Because they know that I am a strong doubter or religion at this point in my life, they love to inundate me with endtimes stuff, because they want me to "get right". If you don't have this in your life, lucky you. Because it messes with your head. As I mentioned, I am on strong meds, trying to keep from having daily panic attacks, and to try and avoid fixating on this stuff. Now, I had written my original post as an affirmation to myself, as much as a defense against Christianity. I would like to show by example why this timeline is important to me: Suppose 10 years from now, technology advances to the point where people want to be able to pay for things without their wallet-- or even their phone, and a company like Apple or Google comes up with an NFC or RFID chip that can be placed in the hand (these exist already--google it) so that all one would have to do is swipe by the payment kiosk and they could then select what payment that they want based on what is associated with the chip. The chip could also contain links to ID and Health. Sounds pretty cool, and easy. People start getting these inserted-- now perhaps they can put their chip where ever they want-- left hand, right hand, arm, shoulder, etc. And eventually, these become popular, just like credit cards. (you can substitute tattoos with electronic ink here as well) The government sees viability in using these chips as official ID's and so now the government is involved. You know that the fundies would be going nuts over a scenario such as this--stating that it is the MOTB and that by taking the mark, you will be hell bound. But, in all actuality, it is just technology progressing (perhaps in a way that seems somewhat similar to Revelation--because of the buying and selling and perhaps the hand part of it) but they will freak out. And I see it as just technological advancement as well. I am sure that there will be a lot of debate and argument regarding privacy, government control, etc. if something like this got off the ground, but there is still no Antichrist or Beast in this scenario-- we are not worshiping anybody who asserts themselves to be god and the "great wonders" haven't happened yet, etc. I think this scenario is entirely plausible in my lifetime, and that is why I want to have valid arguments in my mind. My arguments are as follows: There is no MOTB-- that Revelation is just a book written during the Roman persecution. (This is probably the most valid argument, but the fundies will push how the tech matches what Revelation says) If I get my chip or tattoo in my left hand, I negate the prophecy! (I like this one, because I am taking control--but what if regulation is that you have to get a chip in the right hand) It can't be the MOTB because there is no Beast and the scripture in the bible that talks about this scenario indicates that the Beast is alive and well when the chip is implemented. Now, in this scenario, I suppose that Christians would try to assert that the government is the Beast, but it seems clear in the biblical reading that the Beast is a man who sets himself up as a god, and wants worship. I don't see how our government would fit that role in its current form. Anyway, that is what I am trying to resolve. Let's take arguing with Christians out of the equation. It give me peace to think that you have to have a Beast before you can have the MOTB-- for the reason listed above. But you all have made me feel like I can't believe that is accurate-- and that scares me.