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ag_NO_stic last won the day on October 19

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About ag_NO_stic

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    Authentic Pastafarian
  • Birthday June 6

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    Food. Life. People. Laughter.
  • More About Me
    I am Jess. My name's a good start.

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  • Still have any Gods? If so, who or what?
    Damn good sandwiches elicit "hallelujahs" from me.
  1. abortion...

    So just to be clear on the life support bit, the potential for consciousness is good enough for you? Because that is literally a fetus. I would be interested to see if you are in support of infanticide, since they have not developed their "personhood" according to you? Should a one year old, who is nothing but a burden to the mother and has not developed that "personhood" be terminated? What about an old person with dementia....and there's no real potential there, it's pretty much only downgrading from there, not to mention the burden they are to their families with their declining health. I guess since some paraplegics and people with down's syndrome will always need assistance, they too should be considered for termination. This is the real world after all and they're contributing nothing to society. Also, for the record, a mother's womb is an embryo's world but it's damn near experiencing it. Because that is the developmental phase it's in, according to human gestation. Can a blind, deaf, mute person experience the world as fully as one with all five senses? Can a schizophrenic experience the world like "us?" I don't see your point about the dead skin cells, by the way. To someone who is only concerned with "biological" life, I can see how that might be relevant....but those cells are not a developing human infant. Your comment about it being a "super easy calculation" is interesting considering how many people disagree with you. I will grant you that you appear to be approaching things from a more pessimistic and pragmatic way and I am approaching the topic more idealistically, but that doesn't mean there can't be some common ground. The very first step, as I said before, is acknowledging how terrible abortion is to the victim. I would still debate you on the right to life, but I would not complain AS MUCH if this were painless. It's not, it's very real and I find that abhorrent. I'm not sure where you fall on the gun control spectrum, but this is very same argument. Criminals will commit the crime. Sure, and apparently women who really want to abort will find a way. Which is appalling to me. But that does not change that we shouldn't fight it anyway, just like we did with slavery. Trafficking and all that still happens, but we abolished the practice legally and things changed. As soon as we can all acknowledge what abortion actually is, maybe we can start changing the mindset to begin with. Right now, we are desensitized and don't have to face what it is. You may feel like I'm not responding to your points, I certainly feel like you're not answering mine. You can go on and on about the poor women having voluntary sex resulting in pregnancies and their situations, their economic state, etc etc. I really and truly don't understand why you keep talking about catholics, the pro-life movement, "just outright prohibiting abortion with no contraceptives" when I have repeatedly told you that this is not what I believe or how I approach this issue. I'm sure you have a universal truth of your own, I'm sure you think racism, sexism, etc. are abhorrent no matter the circumstance. Certain situations might make one more sympathetic, but it should still not be tolerated. I think killing the unborn is just one of those issues. You make it sound as though I have no compassion for the already living and that is becoming a bit tiresome. You make me sound like I've lumped myself with the pro-life movement and that's all there is to it. Please, I beg of you, just listen to me. Sure, it's optimistic and possibly Utopian to want this kind of change. I'm not saying I have all the answers here, but that doesn't mean that I have to be silent when something is wrong. I want society to change in ways other than just on this issue. I don't want to make women criminals, I want to educate them, empower them, prevent unwanted pregnancies, and get them out of poverty. I hear what you're saying and I see your points. I will have to think more on how unrealistic I might be on this, but I guarantee you that I will not stop looking for and wishing for alternatives. I don't think it's wrong to speculate about ideals either.
  2. abortion...

    "A zygote or embryo should not have equal concern or rights as the full grown woman" this is your opinion, not a universal truth. Not having a "limbic system or neocortex, the very things which give us the actual qualities of personhood" is also your opinion. A differing non-theist opinion holds that it is human and it could have been prevented, but now that it's here we have to deal with it and resorting to inhumane extermination is not the answer. Do you realize how powerful it is when people with common goals rally together? Women voting was a joke at one point now here we are. You can shit on my "near meaningless influence," but if more and more people begin to consider the points of someone who values life and NOT because of a god, we can gain traction. You are trying to box me in with religious, conservative "pro-lifers" who would not use contraception which is inherently why my perspective is different. I am not aligned with the pro-life movement, I am certainly ANTI-ABORTION. I am not aligned with the feminist movement, I am certainly pro gender equality. Do not assume you know where I'm coming from, box me in, and dismiss me. Social change starts one bitcher at a time. xD You are pointing to various conclusions I have made or pointing out areas for me to consider, but you are missing my entire point. Trying to use anencephalic fetuses as a reason for me to look down upon upon it as compared to a healthy fetus is not relevant here. Trying to define a being that has human chromosomes based on it's "personhood" is also irrelevant. You are trying to make it sound like I don't want to acknowledge your points, when you are fundamentally misunderstanding my refusal to engage. Because we come back to my basic issue with abortion which is making life YOUR arbitrary definition. You are bringing up all your points and dismissing mine as fantastical, when it's not. Unwanted =/= worthy of termination. There are a whole hell of a lot of people in our society that cause problems, but you'll hear me argue for preventative measures and rehabilitation, NOT offing them because I don't see their value as people. I AM A WOMAN! I promise you I have given this ample consideration, especially in light of my deconversion. I am not consigning millions to get illegal and unsafe abortions, I am trying to stop the goddamn abortions from happening! I value the mother's life, of course she is a daughter, and a mother, and a sister! You have belittled my stance by "putting me with the catholics," so that you can argue against that.....but it's a moot point. I do not align myself with abstinence only programs OR just banning abortion. I want to move society forward. And do not miscontrue what I'm saying, I am not fascinated with complex biological life, I am saying it's LIFE (HUMAN life) that is being suffocated for NO REASON. Unwanted is not a good enough reason, if it's preventable. Value for our own, humankind (no matter it's stage of development) is the point. Consciousness, again, is not just reserved for fetuses. There are plenty of adults who fall into this category, but we are not advocating to kill them off. I am not saying I am pro-life, nor am I with this movement. I am I will not debate with you about when life constitutes as valuable. Abortion fucks up the lives of many mothers too. Abortion regret is a thing and can emotionally devastate a woman as much an unwanted pregnancy can. Abortion is disgusting and, if you care about the poor and the women you're affecting, than there is no reason not to work on keeping abortions from happening by educating them and giving them access to contraceptives. If you are against this, then what you have to say is not relevant to this discussion. I'm talking about the mindset of people devaluing other people, not industrialization. What you are saying rings true for the North, but that would be why there was a WAR over slavery until 1865. It's the mindset of superiority I'm referring to, a mindset that people today, often on the left, like to blame on "modern day racism." I am really tempted to make condescending statements about connecting the dots back at you, but I don't want to be that kind of person. So someone disagrees with you, stop "welcoming me to life on planet earth" and telling me to "deal with reality," I'm perfect grounded, thanks. Statements like that piss people off when you want to just discuss the issue, knock it off. I don't want to debate zygotes versus the oh so precious mother's life, I want pregnancies to be prevented unless they are wanted.
  3. abortion...

    Around the 1860's you would have heard similar sentiments about slavery. "It's just going to happen, so get with the times. It's a part of life."
  4. abortion...

    No offense intended here, but I'm the one stating that the life of the fetus and the life of the mother are EQUAL. You are the one who appears to be trying to determine which one is superior, I do not think the fetal rights trump (sorry xD) mother's rights, but I also don't think it works the other way around either. I will make the same comment I made again, the problem I have with abortion is the spectrum we put on life's value. If we were on Mars, a zygote would be considered complex life and would be greatly celebrated. If a couple has been having fertility issues and discovers they are pregnant, this is celebrated! If the pregnancy is wanted, than the passage of this tissue is "a great sorrow because of the child lost." .....So you're telling me just because the baby was conceived by and/or will be brought into a shitty situation, it's suddenly a problem to be gotten rid of? This is a miscarriage of justice. Jesus christ, please think about this. No offense to you, but you attempting to navigate this discussion on your own terms by telling us what should or should not be considered life, and that is your own opinion. The kid having potential daddy issues gives us no right to KILL THE FETUS. "All pro-life arguments have their genesis with Christian Republicans" is coming off like those who say "all people have god's word written on their hearts," you should know as well as I do that morality, reverence for the life of another, and wanting to stop injustice do not have to be tied to christian beliefs. And even IF that's where it started, I am not a believer now and I still refuse to back down on abortion. Preventative means CAN and SHOULD be instituted, a woman is not forced to use a coat hanger anymore than she was forced to have sex before realizing the implications of teenage/unwanted pregnancy. Hence education/access to condoms. Instead of assuming that women will just go into back alleys for their abortions, we should look at the positive statistics where programs promoting contraception are doing well. Your argument is coming across like your argument with a pro-lifer, who often don't want to change the preventative measures. I DO. We can't look at Romania with overflowing orphanages if we EMPOWER WOMEN by giving them control over getting pregnant in the first place. I'm not interested in getting personal with you. I think it's really interesting that you, a male, are trying to tell me, a female, about my vagina and reproductive rights as if I had not considered the implications of my own statements. I don't mean that in the snotty "that's interesting," way...I mean like I legitimately think it's interesting. As a woman, I am fully aware that if I were to get raped right now and become pregnant, that it would suck and be traumatic. What I am saying is that it's not the woman's body, so it's not relevant. Your argument reminds me of people who argue against gun control. Yes, murders will happen.....should we make it legal? Yes, rapes will happen....should we make it legal? Yes, theft happens....should we make it legal? We cannot be blamed for a woman who makes a STUPID decision with coathangers or to go to a black market clinic. We just try to stop it and the first step is acknowledging that a life is being ended. I found this especially ironic considering we are talking about people being killed here too. Abortions aren't statistics either and "my little thought experiment" hardly covers the horrors of being burned alive or being ripped to pieces and dying. Who the hell are you to determine another's right to live? Who the hell are you to say that she SHOULDN'T? It's another person! You may comment on how my empathy appears to you all you like, as you are not in my head and cannot know my motivations. If women were being legally slaughtered in our nation, you will find me very outspoken on that as well, I assure you.
  5. New Game: You Might be an Ex-Christian if.....

    You might be an ex-christian if, instead of quoting John 3:16 and other hole-y scriptures, you quote logical fallacies...... #strawman #appealtoauthority #notruescotsman xD
  6. abortion...

    I'm so sorry the other post as so long, I just kinda kept going. I approach this issue with empathy and compassion, at the same time sticking to my guns on abortion. I truly think (and hope) that in a couple centuries people will look back on this and say to themselves "can you BELIEVE they did that to their own flesh and blood?" To make a fetus less valuable than the mom is to take away it's humanity or determine it as less than. That's what we did during the period of slavery. People determined the value of other human beings.
  7. abortion...

    As I said in my first post, there are people already born, adults even, who don't have consciousness. Hell, when we sleep we experience a different type of consciousness/sensory experience than we are awake and alert. You can call it different words, I'm aware of the various definitions given to a human based on it's developmental stage in the womb....but this changes nothing for me. Abortion comes down to whether or not the fetus is wanted. If it is wanted, its conception is celebrated as a human life as soon as its existence is made known. If it is not, it's a zygote to be disposed of and that makes me fucking sick. People try to soften the blow of abortion by using words like "terminate", "eliminate," "dispose", "fetal material," and "potential life" when they are literally burning alive and ripping apart a human being limb from limb. The problem I have with all this is that YOU and other people are trying to put the value of life on some kind of spectrum based on the fetus' health. There is no difference in my mind between abortion and euthanasia, people are being killed based on their value to another person. Describe the symptoms of anencephaly all you like, nothing changes. This isn't about husbands ordering their wives to come to term, this is about humans as a whole not allowing the slaughter of other humans. A man and a woman have FULL CONTROL (please note, I am specifically NOT referring to instances of rape here) over whether or not to have sex. As I said before, I think we should make it a mission to get contraception and sex ed to anyone who wants it as a way to "compromise" because when a woman gets pregnant, it is not JUST her body and she had every opportunity to stop it before it happened. Men and women are equally culpable and should have equal contraceptive rights both before and after a pregnancy, wanted or not. I am sympathetic to an "oops" but that does not mean that I sympathize with ending its life just because the baby's life will be inconvenient. I 100% support stopping it before it happens, even if that means targeting poor areas for education and safe sex planning. The number of pregnancies occurring from rape is NEGLIGIBLE (I point this out only to make clear that my "it will have to be endured" approach is not going to result in an epidemic). As a woman, right now, if I were to be raped and it were to result in a pregnancy, I would be devastated. There are no words for the anger and bitterness I would feel, I would feel loathing towards the man who did it and probably to the child growing inside me. It would be mentally traumatic, it would result in unwanted changes in my body and an unwanted child. Point blank, I can acknowledge how fucking TERRIBLE it would be, it would suck ass. But that doesn't change anything and that doesn't take away from the value of the life in my womb. I would give it life and give it up for adoption, who knows that little life could grow up to collaborate on the cure for cancer. *shrug* We don't get to say things like "well it wasn't wanted," or "but it would be retarded," or "but it wouldn't have a good life," or "it will grow up poor," "but...but...RAPE!" It doesn't matter. We should, as a society, throw ourselves into prevention, not "after the fact" damage control. Abortions are not good for women's emotional/mental/physical health either, women (more than you think) die. It's really ironically funny to me that everyone who is a fan of abortions had the privilege of being born. Just a quick thought on this, I'll need to find the video of an abortion doctor that stepped forward about the "health of the mother" myth. He won't do them anymore and he made it crystal clear that abortions in early stages take days and health endangerment of the mother in late term pregnancies would result in a C-section. You hear people talk about "but the health of the mother," but that is really not the REASON people get abortions. It's the reason given my people who support the practice, but early term abortions are due to unwanted pregnancy and late term is just.....fucking murder. There, in my mind, is not really a way to sugarcoat this and I'm sorry for it. I don't understand how a pregnancy is "removal of the woman's rights" unless it's unwanted. It's celebrated otherwise, it's just mystifying to me. In my above example of me being raped and it resulting in pregnancy, it would be tragic and sickening and traumatic....but I still wouldn't view it as my rights being infringed on. It's just....a fact of life. Cancer does not remove rights from people, it's just a shitty medical condition. This "rights" discussion ends with a new pregnancy. That's when it stops for a man. I just wanted to stop right here and apologize if I've given you the impression that I extend no compassion to women who have been raped and, on top of that, must deal with a pregnancy. My heart BREAKS at the thought and my compassion knows no bounds on this issue. I think she should be given every kind of support through the ordeal, but I don't understand why the "which is more important" discussion must occur in the first place. If a husband and a wife (or really any two people who have already been born) are in a car accident and in need of medical attention, the doctors do everything in their power to save BOTH. If one is lost, it's a tragedy...a deep, deep tragedy. But there really shouldn't be a "ditch the baby to save the mom" or "ditch the mom to save the baby mindset." A doctor's oath is to everything possible for all patients. If there was a news story where a white person and a black person were an accident and their health was endangered, you can bet the public would be OUTRAGED at any HINT of "which one's more important" and "who's rights should we favor here" talk. It just shouldn't be on the table, in my opinion. I need to watch the New Center that was posted, so I'm better able to contribute to the discussion, but the term has a nice ring to it without me having any further understanding of its definition. But you described very well something I've been trying to put into words for a while now. So thanks for your input!
  8. What's causing the rise of GIRLIE MEN?

    But in answer to the OP question, I think feminism labeling normal male behavior as "socially constructed," and "toxic masculinity" and "microaggressions" and "checking male privilege" has a lot to do with it. Men have been shamed into behaving in a more "stereotypically effeminate" way and it's a cryin shame.
  9. What's causing the rise of GIRLIE MEN?

    Skipping all this dialogue to say that if "girly men" are the new thing and that "alpha male types" are on their way out due to evolution......I'm glad I had really good, hot sex with a "traditionally masculine" type while they still exist lol. #justsayin
  10. White privilege?

    I think every social group has some aspects of privilege and some ways that make life more difficult. I can tell you right now that there are a lot of outspoken black people who share their positive experiences with police, compliance is the absolute key. You have minorities raised from birth to believe that they are going to get shot with their hands up and they "go down fighting," which is the number one way to get shot. It doesn't fix the problem by any means, but belligerent people get the cops in a fight-or-flight mode which isn't good for anyone involved.