The Specious Love Of God

[Checkmate]

Just for fun, let's try this, and see how many of our visiting Christians will/can respond. (I've got five bucks that says they don't take the bait/challenge! )

 

Lately it seems that every thread is hi-jacked inevitably by the “love of God/Jesus” argument from Christians. So I thought it only appropriate to dedicate an entire thread to the subject.

 

Is the God of the Bible™ a “loving God” or is he the “devil of hell”?

 

By now it should be painfully apparent what the consensus will be on THIS question, from members of this forum, so I won’t belabor the point by citing the myriad verses that prove that bible-God is a monster of the first order.

 

What I would like to see happen is for a Christian, ANY CHRISTIAN, to defend their God. Explain to us poor, benighted sinners, how genocide – the murder of entire races, INCLUDING THE UNBORN, INFANTS AND ANIMALS – can be considered by ANY stretch of the imagination as “loving”? Particularly when as “God”, you could have fixed things so that NONE of this was necessary.

 

“God” curses a flawed (sinful) product from jump street, (Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden), then places the blame for THEIR “sinfulness” squarely upon all of HUMANITY’S shoulders, and then torments and murders us for OUR “crimes”? He then, according to Christian doctrine, waits for thousands of years before he reveals his “final solution” of “Jesus’” sacrifice on the cross for ALL of mankind. (Well, what was the fate of the poor sods who died BEFORE Calvary happened? Why wait? Why didn’t Noah’s generation get this opportunity to “repent”? Was THAT an act of “love” too?)

 

But it gets better. If you stubbornly deny the cruci-fiction of Christ, then this “loving” god will further blind you, harden your heart, and turn you over to “Satan”, so his final act of “love” can be demonstrated. To wit: an ETERNAL TORMENT in the LAKE OF FIRE?

 

Now, I don’t claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. In fact, many people are exceedingly smarter than I. However, to my common sense mind, THIS behavior doesn’t sound like “love”. It sounds like the behavior of a megalomaniac, despotic tyrant who is pissed because his puppet slaves won’t bow down and lick his toes! (“Waaah! I’m God! I created you! Bow down bitches and return my “love”, or else I’ll fucking kill you!”) Sounds like “God” needs to switch to decaf.

 

Actually, it sounds like a bad fairy tale from the demented minds of Bronze Age nitwits, and you Christians are suckers for believing it. But that’s just my humble opinion.

 

How can the murder of unbelievers, infants, infidels, pagans, or whatever you call us, be classified as “Love”? (“For God so loved the WORLD…” Really? I don’t think so.)

 

PROVE to me that “God is Love”. I dare you.

 

I eagerly await the “Christian” response. Please explain to me how this “god” is “love” and not a Monster. Why do you sheep believe such nonsense? How do you con yourselves into believing this obvious lie?

 

(Caveat ~ “I FEEL his love” is not an acceptable answer. So please don’t give it. The fallacy of your subjective experiences are NOT a valid “proof” of anything except maybe an upset stomach or a fever dream. Also, don’t make up excuses that you won’t find in the Bible. Like, “Well, MAYBE God knew in advance how wicked those Amalekite children would be, and so He is justified in sparing them that fate.” Not only is that a sick rationalization, Mr. and Mrs. “Minority Report”, but it isn’t provable. Don’t waste my time with it.)

[dibby]

How can the murder of unbelievers, infants, infidels, pagans, or whatever you call us, be classified as “Love”? (“For God so loved the WORLD…” Really? I don’t think so.)

 

I think you hit the nail on the head Grinch.

I spoke to someone from the Living Waters fellowship about this very point of Jehovah's genocidal tendancies. She said it was because the people would lead the Israelites into idolatry.

 

So, they hadn,t even done anything yet! It was done just in case they did!! When I pointed this out (plus the fact that I don,t understand how cattle and infants can lead people into idolatry) she no longer replied to me. It was really alarming hearing her trying to justify mass murder. God help us if too many people with this mindset get into political power.

 

It is amazing how blind to evil people can be.

[Ouroboros]

The last couple of days I've realized there's no argument for God being moral or good in any sense.

 

Very logically, if God created morals (or the rules for good actions), then moral didn't exist before he created it, and God is not moral himself. It's a concept that only would apply to humans. Moral doesn't apply to God, and he is neither good or evil, he/she/it is yin/yang.

[DanInPA]

1 John 4:8

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

1 Corinthians 13

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

 

Revelation 20

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

 

So, god is love, love keeps no record of wrongs, and god keeps your wrongs recorded in a book.

 

[Checkmate]

The last couple of days I've realized there's no argument for God being moral or good in any sense.

 

Very logically, if God created morals (or the rules for good actions), then moral didn't exist before he created it, and God is not moral himself. It's a concept that only would apply to humans. Moral doesn't apply to God, and he is neither good or evil, he/she/it is yin/yang.

Thanks a lot, thread killer! Way to introduce common sense when I'm trying to trap me some Christians. Now quiet down, Hans. Let the rest of the class have a shot.

[Golden Meadows]

The last couple of days I've realized there's no argument for God being moral or good in any sense.

Yes but there are many claiments to the position of God and how they each act is one of the ways we decide on which one is true - if you are not an atheist.

 

Very logically, if God created morals (or the rules for good actions),

He created finite beings with free will who could choose to follow him, that by definition must be good, or not which is bad. Doing bad is anti-god.

 

then moral didn't exist before he created it,

It only has any meaning for finite created beings with free will.

 

and God is not moral himself.

No because there is nothing greater than God, he is inifinite in his attributes, he does not have to choose conformance to a higher will or not.

 

It's a concept that only would apply to humans.

Not only in their daily actions but in determining the competing claims of different gods in the first place and their will, but what is the benchmark? However imperfect I go for a sense of right and wrong that's written into our nature by the true God.

 

Moral doesn't apply to God,

To the true God no

and he is neither good or evil,

but the man made versions are

he/she/it is yin/yang.

agreed even though there are passages in the NT that seem to suggest he is capable of doing evil. In the case of that "god" it seems to be true.

 

You always make me think which is a good thing

[Checkmate]

PROVE to me that “God is Love”. I dare you.

 

you have no idea do you? i was a mess. i was inappropriate with lots of boys because i never really got the love i needed from my daddy. i also took all kinds of drugs to nummb the pain. i could feel the demons of despair and angry in me for years, i hit bottom several times, but it wasn't until i met the lord Jesus in church one morning and he gave me his spirit that my life turned around. i was really born again totally new. i could feel his love inside of me racing around and fixing what was wrong, so i quickly broke up with my drug dealer boyfriend and have been faithful to Him ever since. if god qwasn't love then i could never have changed. He took his love and made me new and I am living proof of gods love.

Tsk, tsk, tsk! A flag on the play with your first post out of the box, Maddie. For shame! Read the rules of MY game again:

(Caveat ~ “I FEEL his love” is not an acceptable answer. So please don’t give it. The fallacy of your subjective experiences are NOT a valid “proof” of anything except maybe an upset stomach or a fever dream. Also, don’t make up excuses that you won’t find in the Bible. Like, “Well, MAYBE God knew in advance how wicked those Amalekite children would be, and so He is justified in sparing them that fate.” Not only is that a sick rationalization, Mr. and Mrs. “Minority Report”, but it isn’t provable. Don’t waste my time with it.)

Try again. And THIS time give us something we can sink our teeth into. We can't examine your "feelings".

[Vigile]

 

you have no idea do you? i was a mess. i was inappropriate with lots of boys because i never really got the love i needed from my daddy. i also took all kinds of drugs to nummb the pain. i could feel the demons of despair and angry in me for years, i hit bottom several times, but it wasn't until i met the lord Jesus in church one morning and he gave me his spirit that my life turned around. i was really born again totally new. i could feel his love inside of me racing around and fixing what was wrong, so i quickly broke up with my drug dealer boyfriend and have been faithful to Him ever since. if god qwasn't love then i could never have changed. He took his love and made me new and I am living proof of gods love.

 

There are two truly sad things about your story Maddie; first, you have been brainwashed that sex is evil and two that you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps and fixed your own life yet you give credit to an imaginary being. As such you continue to see yourself as but a worm, oh but for the grace of god. This is just very very sad to me.

[Lycorth]

 

Good thread, Mista Grinch. It'll be nice to see this one dovetail with my own about Odin and that jerk on a stick.

 

Every word true, Grinchy. How can a god be all-good and all-loving and not realize his moral obligation to protect us from evil and destroy it? There is no possible way around this logical fallacy, since no such being can possibly exist. If such a being exists, it is an evil being unworthy of the slightest shred of love.

 

Poor Xians just don't realize they worship a devil.

 

Except some who try to excuse his devilishness, who are the saddest cases of them all

[Ouroboros]

Thanks a lot, thread killer! Way to introduce common sense when I'm trying to trap me some Christians. Now quiet down, Hans. Let the rest of the class have a shot.

Sorry! I'll try to shut up for a little bit. (Some would say that requires a miracle. )

[chefranden]

1 John 4:8

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

1 Corinthians 13

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

 

Revelation 20

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

 

So, god is love, love keeps no record of wrongs, and god keeps your wrongs recorded in a book.

 

 

Oh! I love it! Good Job Dan!

 

PROVE to me that “God is Love”. I dare you.

 

you have no idea do you? i was a mess. i was inappropriate with lots of boys because i never really got the love i needed from my daddy. i also took all kinds of drugs to nummb the pain. i could feel the demons of despair and angry in me for years, i hit bottom several times, but it wasn't until i met the lord Jesus in church one morning and he gave me his spirit that my life turned around. i was really born again totally new. i could feel his love inside of me racing around and fixing what was wrong, so i quickly broke up with my drug dealer boyfriend and have been faithful to Him ever since. if god qwasn't love then i could never have changed. He took his love and made me new and I am living proof of gods love.

 

Oh My!

 

Hallelujah!?

 

By the way where the fuck was God when you were little and needed a dad?

 

Satan: Let me make Maddie a druggie slut!

 

Jesus: Sure, go ahead.

 

Here are a few more examples of Jesus' love

[Lycorth]

you assume that god has no purpose for evil. your assummption is essentially that you know better than th all knowing creator and in your infinite understanding there could be no greater purpose for evil and this life. like i said in the other thread it takes a spiritual person to understand spiritual things.

 

 

Why am I not spiritual? You Xians are such arrogant little shits. I actually am a rather religious person - just not your religin. But, contrary to your delusions, your religion isn't the oldest or most unique religion on earth.

 

What "greater purpose" can there be for the kind of evil your god permits? If your god wants us to be better people, then why does he not make it so? Only a less-than-all-powerful god needs to struggle to implement his will, using plans and games and so on. Your god is evidently not what he claims to be or is a complete fallacy.

 

Yes, I do know better than the god depicted in the Babble™. You must prove that he is the creator of the universe and that he is all-knowing, first. You can't just say it and not back it up. I know they don't teach you that during sermon time, but it's true out here in the real world.

 

Geez, they get dumber each time they appear, these Xian zombies...

[chefranden]

...you assume that god has no purpose for evil. your assummption is essentially that you know better than th all knowing creator and in your infinite understanding there could be no greater purpose for evil and this life. like i said in the other thread it takes a spiritual person to understand spiritual things.

 

And you assume that God has a purpose for evil. If God can get away with being evil for good reason, why can't I? You see you can't love the god who done you dirt, unless you hold the disfunctional idea that you deserve it. I hope you still love your daddy for doing you dirt. You better not hold it against him, cause that was Jesus loving you.

 

 

By the way if God has a purpose for evil why would he condemn those that do it for him?

 

 

Book of America 15:2 And God Said "Thanks, Ted, I wanted that girl raped and tortured to death. Enter into my kingdom thou good and faithful servant."

[nick5]

Actually, it sounds like a bad fairy tale from the demented minds of Bronze Age nitwits, and you Christians are suckers for believing it. But that’s just my humble opinion.

No, no, I'd say it's pretty much fact

[Checkmate]

You ask me to prove gods feeling, that he is love, but you say i cant use my feelings as proof because feelings arent proovable. how can i win? prove to me that you love anybody!

I'm liking this, Maddie. Keep 'em coming.

 

Not only can I prove that I (or YOU) love someone, but I can prove who does not love. Are you familiar with the saying, "Actions speak louder than words?"

 

I have a family. A wife and two kids and a dog. I provide for them. Food, water, shelter and affection. THAT is love.

 

Would it be love if I THREATENED, BEAT, TORTURED, BURNED, and RAPED my family? Nope.

 

See how easy that is?

 

This "God" of yours, is a MURDERER. According to your Bible, he is a MASS MURDERER. He has brazenly and happily committed GENOCIDE against his own creatures.

 

I ask again this simple question: HOW IS THIS "LOVE"?

 

Your turn!

[nick5]

when a horse breaks its leg and we shoot it are we shooting it out of love or are we murdering it?

But if we were all powerful, then the blame would automatically go on us if the horse broke it's leg. That's the difference with human love. If I was all powerful, my loved ones would have a perfect world to live in where no pain exists. No possibiblity of breaking their leg in the first place.

Your argument is flawed.

 

giving your children a chance to grow to become like Jesus, that is love.

So, getting your children to grow up into horrible monsters who will torture others, that is love? I don't think so.

 

and creating a place for them in eternity when they will know nothing but happiness. that is love.

No. Love would be to grant them access to that place no matter what their actions and beliefs are.

 

allowing them to live when they deserve to be snuffed out of existence, thats love, grinch.

1.Nobody deserves that.

2. Even if they did, it would be 100% the fault of their creator, since he's all powerful. Therefore, punishing them because of it, that isn't love. It's evil.

 

not just buying someone bologna and trapper keepers.

Isn't it funny how that's exactly what you're doing.

[Checkmate]

when a horse breaks its leg and we shoot it are we shooting it out of love or are we murdering it?

What does a horse's broken leg have to do with HUMAN and GOD'S so-called love?

 

We can agree that it is "merciful" to put an animal out of it's misery. But is it LOVE to CAUSE that misery, or to allow it to happen, and THEN TORTURE the poor animal for all eternity? If THAT is "love", then yes, your god is love. (That is sarcasm, by the way.)

 

Your "god" put us IN this bind, cursed ALL of mankind, keeps us blind and hardened, even crippled. And now you claim it is OK for him to "shoot" us? And then go one better and TORTURE us forever for having a broken leg?

 

Are you crazy, or what? Who messed you up this badly?

 

Oh! I know. Your blind faith to a psycho God.

[Ouroboros]

if you can see that you are blind hardened and criplled, what makes you think you know the truth about god? if you are that way its because of your choices and not god. sometimes in this world of total freedom people make decisions that are the equivalent of a horse's broken leg, they are beyond repair and so death is deserved.

Maddie, that didn't sound good at all. You just said we should be put to death. So you are threatening us, and you think we will like you and listen to you? So you will get right through might? Kill everyone that disagrees?

[Checkmate]

Oh and Maddie? One more thing before you fire off your next "love missile for Jesus".

 

The reason your subjective love feelings are REALLY worthless, is because THEY AREN'T UNIQUE.

 

I know, I know. Big shock, right?

 

Almost ALL of us heathens at one time or another "felt the love of God" on our lives and in our hearts. Me too.

 

My life was "changed by the love of Christ" (or so I thought) just as much as was yours. Don't believe me? Then go read my testimony in the Testimonies of Ex-Christians thread.

 

We've all "been there, done that", so your feelings aren't impressing, NOR surprising us. We deceived ourselves EXACTLY as you're doing today. So you can drop the "I feel his love" routine. It's a worn out, hackneyed ploy. It won't EVER work.

 

Which is why I DEMANDED OBJECTIVE proof from you. And as amusing as this has been, I don't feel inclined to chase your tail around this forum refuting a nonsense premise. So, unless you've got something BETTER than your feelings, you may as well bow out of the debate and let someone else waste my time.

 

Or stay and take more abuse for not making any sense. Your call.

[Lycorth]

if you can see that you are blind hardened and criplled, what makes you think you know the truth about god? if you are that way its because of your choices and not god. sometimes in this world of total freedom people make decisions that are the equivalent of a horse's broken leg, they are beyond repair and so death is deserved.

Maddie, that didn't sound good at all. You just said we should be put to death. So you are threatening us, and you think we will like you and listen to you? So you will get right through might? Kill everyone that disagrees?

 

Heh - zackly.

 

Hey, sweetcakes - do you forget you're just a human being? You don't speak for any god but that devil you worship. And only an evil spirit, not a good one, could possibly motivate someone to make the threats you just did.

 

You are indeed a perfect example of why we are no longer Xians. Thanks for helping us illustrate our point, and reminding us of why Jeezus™ is evil. No one in their right mind wants to be a part of what you are describing. I for one would rather die.

 

Now you can go to your prayer closet and tell your devil that you just helped a bunch of people cement their opposition to him. You just cost Jeezus™ some fans. Such a wicked thing to do

[Checkmate]

if you can see that you are blind hardened and criplled, what makes you think you know the truth about god?

Sigh. READ my words carefully, Maddie. I DON'T believe that I am blind, hardened, or crippled. I am arguing from the premise of what YOU and YOUR religion declares about US. YOU are the one who believes this nonsense. I am the one who is TRYING to get you to understand that it MAKES NO SENSE to call this LOVE.

 

PLEASE, get a clue.

[chefranden]

there has to be a purpose for evil because its a necessary part of freewill. those who choose evil do so out of their own free wil and pay the price in hell, but being here where anything goes is necessary to see who are the truly rightious, by comparison to those around them. god has never done me wrong. everything i have thats good has come from him.

 

This cannot be the case Maddie. If people can choose whether they will sin or not then some will not sin, which means they do not need a savior. Yet Paul says that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. If all have sinned then there is no choice. People do not have free will not to be sinners, therefore they do not have free will to be sinners. That is they must be sinners, because there is no choice not to be. If you must be a sinner, for whatever reason, then there is no free will.

 

Now you must explain why the free will of the evil doer allways trumps the free will of the victim. Why must little girls be force to be sex slaves in order for God to figure out who will go to hell? Isn't the intention of the heart good enough for God? You have already said that God killed many babies to save them from hell because he knew that if they grew up they would go to hell. Why not kill the johns and pimps early? That way the men would be saved and the girls will be saved from the horror of their lives. Or if God doesn't want the men let off, he could just send them straight to hell -- do not pass Go, do not rape a 9 year old.

 

And of course God has done you wrong. You know from the parable of the Good Samaritian, and the description of the sheep and the goats that you are not good if you don't help those that you have the power to help. You don't have the excuse that you intended to help them later. When God doesn't help when help is timely, he is condemned by his own words. When God didn't reform your daddy, he did not help you in a timely fashion. Now you give God credit for helping you later, but you don't give him credit for putting you in the shit in the first place. If God is sovereign, how else did you get in the shit? And if he pulled you out of the shit without your help, why doesn't he do so for others?

 

God if he is real is not just, and therefore is not good.

[padhyde]

Never mind the God of the bible, look at the world of creation. I'm glad I'm not one of those creatures who will get eaten alive because other creatures were not taught to be vegetarians.

 

Regards

[Asimov]

The wages of sin is death. these arent my words but the word of the almighty sovereign creator.

 

Who happens to not exist.

[Asimov]

right. and while we're at it the moon doesn't exist, and volcanos dont exist, and tornados, and asteroids and unicorns and platypusses and whatever else you want to say. it doesnt make it true.

 

Are you saying that unicorns exist? Wow you're fucked up.