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Judas Was Crucified, Not Jesus


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#1 The_Omniscient

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:43 AM

Dear Fellows;

I had been watching a documentary film on National geographic where it was told that an age old, lost gospel has been found which is attributed to Judas Thomas. Many christians believe that Judas was the companion of Jesus who betrayed him and helped the enemy to locate the place where jesus along his companions had been hiding.

To our surprise, this new found Gospel portrays Judas as an obedient companion rather then a betrayer. In a verse it discloses this fact as:

[13] Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."

Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."

Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."


On the base of above mentioned verse and other corresponding verses, it appears that rather Jesus pursuaded Judas for a betrayal. What betrayal? it is not very clear in the Gospel.

The wikipedia has this to say about the betrayal;

It has a strong positive focus on Judas Iscariot, but does not claim to have been written by him. According to the canonical Gospels, Judas betrayed Jesus to the Jewish authorities, who then turned him over to the Roman authorities by whom he was crucified. The Gospel of Judas interprets this act positively, as one performed in obedience to the instructions of Jesus, rather than as a betrayal. This positive portrayal follows from the Gnostic notion that the human form is a prison. In this view, Judas helped to release the spirit of Christ from its physical constraints.


But nowhere in this Gospel we find about the crucification of Jesus. The gospel is completely silent on this matter. What actually was happened and what the betrayal was?

To our help, the Holy Quran makes it clear for us in the following 2 verses;

[3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.


In the light of above verses it becomes clearer that Jesus was not cruciified rather God took him on the sky for a time period and he shall return, alive, before the day of judgement and then will die and be burried on Earth. If jesus was not crucified, then who is on the cross?

This is Judas Thomas. How? the very opening statements of the Gospel of Judas disclose this fact.It says;

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.


The word Didymos is a hebrew word which means the twin or alike. It is now believed that Judas was twin of Jesus in appearance.

Reference:

The Gospel of Judas, the Twin of Jesus

also known as the Gospel of St. Thomas

These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Judas "the Twin" [Thomas; Didymus] wrote down. http://www.graveworm...xts/judas1.html


Thus it becomes very clear that Jesus would actually have pursuaded Judas of a betrayal. what betrayal? a betrayal that he would cheat his appearance and disguise himself as jesus and the real jesus shall ascent to the heavens. And it happened thats why when we see the paintings, we see judas kissing on the neck of jesus at the time he brings the soldiers along him is actually; the jesus in the disguise of judas kissing the judas in the disguise of jesus.

It is a very interesting hidden historical fact which helps us to improve our knowledge fo the past incidents quite perfectly as well as help us to observe the authentification of quran as Quran already told many centuries before;

and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it;

Regards
A well wisher
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#2 Dra_Mucd_Uha

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 12:22 PM

Hm... sounds kinda far fetched to me, because you appeared to have taken the Quaran verses out of text, as well as others, not to mention you make quite a few assumptions (like the Quaran and the Gospel of Judas is true, for example).

I really cannot say anything though, because I have not looked int the Gospel of Judas.
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#3 Ouroboros

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 12:54 PM

I think the idea has been around for a while, mostly among the Muslim religion. (Are you Muslim by chance TO?)

It all presupposes that there was a Jesus and a Judas actually doing any teachings. And since the Gospel of Judas is a Gnostic scripture, the story of Jesus and the crucifixion is all mythologies to explain spiritual awareness and knowledge, not really a historical event.
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And behold, one came who in the form of a demon holding a beer, and he spake with a tongue of red. And when he spake, he said bye bye, and all listened, and watched as he smote the babbling troll with his +5 banhammer of fedupishness. And there was much rejoicing.



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#4 -Demona-

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:27 PM

There were actually two Judases close to Jesus, if you read the texts in full. One was Judas Iscariot, and the other was Judas Thomas. It was Judas Iscariot that supposedly betrayed Jesus. JT was the "obedient servant".

That is of course, with the presupposition that anybody mentioned in the texts existed in the first place.
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#5 Ouroboros

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 01:36 PM

The replacement story was already presented in the Gospel of Barnabas: http://en.wikipedia....pel_of_Barnabas

I think the Didymos (Twin) goes back to the zodiac and the correlations beween astrology and the Gospels. Gemini = Twins. Judas Didymos was the Gemini sign among the 12.
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Jabbrwokk QFT:



And behold, one came who in the form of a demon holding a beer, and he spake with a tongue of red. And when he spake, he said bye bye, and all listened, and watched as he smote the babbling troll with his +5 banhammer of fedupishness. And there was much rejoicing.



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#6 Minstrel

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 01:37 PM

Could be that Judas Thomas was Jesus' twin... A good piece of investigatory work on this would be "The Bible Fraud" by Tony Bushby. He takes a number of leaps of faith, in his pursuit...but, as a rule, they are justified by what is found on the other side of the leaps.
According to more that he found, it appears that Muhammed (of the Quran) may actually have been an Ex-Christian (very high ranking) himself.
Likewise, in his discourse, it would appear that it was Judas Thomas (Krestus) that was sentenced to death, but that he elected to use his one and only Royal 'Get Out of Jail Free' card...which preceded the opening of "The Acts of Thomas".
Many assume that the "twin" caricatures of so many artists are depicting Jesus and John the Baptist, but there is ample evidence in the writings of the early church fathers...that Jesus and Judas were blood-twins.
In the Quran quote, the name Mariam (?) is seen... Mariamne/Miriam (of which Mary is a derivative) was mother to these twins...
Of the various works I've read that touch on this subject, I have found Bushby's to have been far more determined, with a result of taking it further into these questions.
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Posted 15 July 2006 - 05:43 PM

observe the authentification of quran as Quran already told many centuries before;


Omniscient is a Muslim troll.

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#8 Golden Meadows

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 05:55 PM


observe the authentification of quran as Quran already told many centuries before;


Omniscient is a Muslim troll.

bdp


From my own experience they tend to leave only one message and never return. I hope thats not the case here because there are a lot of things we could discuss in a friendly manner about Islam.
I have always wondered about the character of Judas. In Zechariah 11 there appears to be a "prophecy" regarding Judas and the 30 peices of silver. From my reading Judas is working directly for Yahweh and I don't understand how the gospel evangelists turned things arround to demonise Judas. Anybody have ideas about this?
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#9 SkepticOfBible

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 07:37 PM

In Zechariah 11 there appears to be a "prophecy" regarding Judas and the 30 peices of silver. From my reading Judas is working directly for Yahweh and I don't understand how the gospel evangelists turned things arround to demonise Judas. Anybody have ideas about this?


BTW, Matthew misquotes Zechariah as prophet Isaiah.

So why is zechariah 11 a prophecy for Judas? What is the prophecy here, when read in context?
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#10 Golden Meadows

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:21 PM


In Zechariah 11 there appears to be a "prophecy" regarding Judas and the 30 peices of silver. From my reading Judas is working directly for Yahweh and I don't understand how the gospel evangelists turned things arround to demonise Judas. Anybody have ideas about this?


BTW, Matthew misquotes Zechariah as prophet Isaiah.

So why is zechariah 11 a prophecy for Judas? What is the prophecy here, when read in context?


Zechariah 11:10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty p
ieces of silver.


13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

All my xtian library is packed up at present, the only bible commentry that is to hand describes the prophet in the above passage as being an anti-type for Judas. This seems a bit thin to me since whilst the the NT writers indeed relied heavily on OT typology to support their claims I have never come across their use of anti-types before. It seems pretty clear the type for Judas foreshadowed in the the OT is a servant of Yahweh. I suspect the Gnostic texts, unusually, had a literal interpretation for this passage that is reflected in the Gospel of Judas. I know that some Jewish commentators felt that the character of Judas (cf Judah, Jews) was a xtian creation to demonise them and their religion.



Added: It does same strange that two figures who in the NT represent everything thats gone wrong in the angelic and human spheres, ie satan and Judas, are actually depicted more like servants of God in the OT.
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#11 The_Omniscient

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:25 PM

Dear Fellows;

I accept I am a Muslim and I am proud of it. Besides, i am not a bron Muslim, rather one can say i am a converted Muslim. I born in a Muslim family but i never took religion and God seriously untill i completed my A levels. It was after that that some circumstances motivatted me for the search of an ultimate reality and to my surprise, after an years long research n study, i met Islam as the milestone. I came to understand God not blindly but, with rationality, logioc, science and wisdom.

One of my fellow here showed his concern regarding a hit and run kinda poster. Dear fellow, i am not such hit and run muslim or a copy paster. I am here to answer all your qqestions and to discuss any thing and to recieve any criticism in a friendly and respectful environment. As regards the topic is concerned, I shared something i wanted to share and i have nothing more to say or discuss about it.

Regards
A well wisher
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#12 Minstrel

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:33 PM

Dear Fellows;
I accept I am a Muslim and I am proud of it...
...I am here to answer all your qqestions and to discuss any thing and to recieve any criticism in a friendly and respectful environment...
Regards
A well wisher

That is kind of you. I don't know enough about Islam to be able to discuss any of your beliefs...but will count you a well of information should any questions arise.
Peace to you as well.
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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:37 PM

On the Randi forums, whenever a troll (a.k.a. Hit-And-Run Poster) comes by and posts crazy random crap that isn't even worth addressing such as that of the above, they post recipes. Maybe we should start that. Here goes.

Scim's Fettucine Alfredo (courtesy AllRecipes.com)

INGREDIENTS:
1/2 cup butter
1 pint heavy cream
1/2 pound fresh mushrooms, sliced
15 medium shrimp - peeled, deveined and cooked
3/4 cup grated Parmesan cheese
8 ounces dry fettuccine pasta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DIRECTIONS:
In large saucepan, over low heat, combine butter and cream, stirring occasionally until butter is melted. Add mushrooms, cooked shrimp and Parmesan, stir and cover and simmer 15 minutes, or until sauce begins to thicken.
While sauce is simmering, bring a large pot of lightly salted water to a boil. Add pasta and cook for 8 to 10 minutes or until al dente; drain. Toss sauce with hot pasta and serve.
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#14 Golden Meadows

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 11:43 PM

Dear Fellows;

I accept I am a Muslim and I am proud of it. Besides, i am not a bron Muslim, rather one can say i am a converted Muslim. I born in a Muslim family but i never took religion and God seriously untill i completed my A levels. It was after that that some circumstances motivatted me for the search of an ultimate reality and to my surprise, after an years long research n study, i met Islam as the milestone. I came to understand God not blindly but, with rationality, logioc, science and wisdom.

One of my fellow here showed his concern regarding a hit and run kinda poster. Dear fellow, i am not such hit and run muslim or a copy paster. I am here to answer all your qqestions and to discuss any thing and to recieve any criticism in a friendly and respectful environment. As regards the topic is concerned, I shared something i wanted to share and i have nothing more to say or discuss about it.

Regards
A well wisher


Welcome Well Wisher,
Glad you have decided to hang around and help us understand Islam better. As you will gather I am ex-christian but I still believe in God and accept that there are truths in xtian revelation that are indeed of God. One of these "truths" is that "God is Love". Does Islam accept this as a truth as well?
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#15 SkepticOfBible

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 02:34 AM

]All my xtian library is packed up at present, the only bible commentry that is to hand describes the prophet in the above passage as being an anti-type for Judas. This seems a bit thin to me since whilst the the NT writers indeed relied heavily on OT typology to support their claims I have never come across their use of anti-types before.


Oh right, it is typological prophecy, not a actual prophecy

Here check out this article, which shows the problem with that.

It's Amazing...Martha Stewart Fulfilled Old Testament "Prophecy"

The so called Jesus's "accurate" fullfillment is like the archer who paints a bullseye after he fires a arrow, and then claims that he had bull's eye view

Even Muslims claim that Mohammed is "prophesied" in the hebrew and christian scripture. But once you actually scrutinise, one sees that they are nothing but mere embellishments.

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#16 The_Omniscient

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 03:08 AM

Dear Golden Meadows;

One of these "truths" is that "God is Love". Does Islam accept this as a truth as well?


Well, i know i am going to make a bit longer reply but i would try to be as breif as i could.

First thing is this that dear fellow, according to Islam the Bible was indeed the word of true-God and still in the new revised international version, one may find some of the traces of the real revelations. Why i say "traces" ? Its because of the fact that the real Bible is no longer present in its unaltered form. We have lost the real Bible, save one manuscript hidden somewhere unknown to us yet. The present day Bible is actually not the book of God but the book of people with some words of God.

Secondly, concerning your question; the book of Islam that is the Quran it is still present in its original form and it is believed that not a single word of it has been changed yet. In this reference, mulsims show strong neutral archeological and historical evidences.

In this book, i.e. the Quran, God has spoken many a times about his mercy, love, benevolence and compassion. He says that his mercy is 100 times greater then his wrath but, at the same time he reminds us that we should seek for his mercy but should also fear from the consequences of breaking natural or divine laws. In this context, the notion God is All- Loving is not suitable. No objection that love of God is greater but to say he is nothing but love would be a bit of an exageration and logically not plausible. So, in a nutshell, In Islam God is perceived as the most merciful and omnibenevolent being but simultaneously he is also perceived as the one infront of whom everyone is acountable for his actions.

Should any further clearrifications be required, need not to hesitate.

Regards
A well wisher
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#17 Golden Meadows

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 04:07 AM




]All my xtian library is packed up at present, the only bible commentry that is to hand describes the prophet in the above passage as being an anti-type for Judas. This seems a bit thin to me since whilst the the NT writers indeed relied heavily on OT typology to support their claims I have never come across their use of anti-types before.


Oh right, it is typological prophecy, not a actual prophecy

Here check out this article, which shows the problem with that.

It's Amazing...Martha Stewart Fulfilled Old Testament "Prophecy"

The so called Jesus's "accurate" fullfillment is like the archer who paints a bullseye after he fires a arrow, and then claims that he had bull's eye view

Even Muslims claim that Mohammed is "prophesied" in the hebrew and christian scripture. But once you actually scrutinise, one sees that they are nothing but mere embellishments.


Sorry, but I was not trying to suggest that what appears in Zechariah actually happened in an historical figure of Judas but rather whoever wrote the NT made it look so. The point I was trying to get at was why they choose to write back to this passage in the OT a type who was supposed to be a servant/prophet of God for judas iscariot whom they then go onto demonise in the NT.? Any ideas?
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#18 Golden Meadows

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 04:20 AM

Dear Golden Meadows;

One of these "truths" is that "God is Love". Does Islam accept this as a truth as well?


Well, i know i am going to make a bit longer reply but i would try to be as breif as i could.
Thank you

First thing is this that dear fellow, according to Islam the Bible was indeed the word of true-God and still in the new revised international version, one may find some of the traces of the real revelations. Why i say "traces" ? Its because of the fact that the real Bible is no longer present in its unaltered form.
If it was orginally the word of the the true-god why did he allow it to become corrupt? Surely the true-God would never have allowed this to happen?

We have lost the real Bible, save one manuscript hidden somewhere unknown to us yet.
Could you please explain what you mean by this?

The present day Bible is actually not the book of God but the book of people with some words of God.
How do you determine what book is the word of God or what parts of a book are the word of God?

Secondly, concerning your question; the book of Islam that is the Quran it is still present in its original form and it is believed that not a single word of it has been changed yet. In this reference, mulsims show strong neutral archeological and historical evidences.
Are you exclusively a religion of the book or do you have a line of tradition that complements the Quran?

In this book, i.e. the Quran, God has spoken many a times about his mercy, love, benevolence and compassion. He says that his mercy is 100 times greater then his wrath but, at the same time he reminds us that we should seek for his mercy but should also fear from the consequences of breaking natural or divine laws.
Why does man break natural or divine laws? Has he been made imperfect and if so why?


In this context, the notion God is All- Loving is not suitable. No objection that love of God is greater but to say he is nothing but love would be a bit of an exageration and logically not plausible.
Do you agree that if God was not the God of justice then he could not be the God of Love? One of my big objections to xtianity is that the God they describe is not just because he sentences people to an eternal punishment for a finite/temporal crime? What does Islam teach about about justice/judgment and punishment?


So, in a nutshell, In Islam God is perceived as the most merciful and omnibenevolent being but simultaneously he is also perceived as the one infront of whom everyone is acountable for his actions.
o.k

Should any further clearrifications be required, need not to hesitate.
Thanks


p.s Please don't think I am being hostile in asking a lot of questions- I genuinely would like to understand Islam better especially to seek out why the great religions founded on Abraham do not always get on with one another - perhaps a bit of an understatement :)
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#19 SkepticOfBible

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:01 AM

But nowhere in this Gospel we find about the crucification of Jesus. The gospel is completely silent on this matter. What actually was happened and what the betrayal was?


So.....You are talking as if Gospel of Judas is accurate historical document. All it means that the Gospel of Judas contradict the other 4. Big deal.

To our help, the Holy Quran makes it clear for us in the following 2 verses;


It is ironic, you mention on this forum the historical accuracy of the Gospel of Judas, with regards to Jesus, yet over we don't even acknowledge the historical veracity of Jesus Christ.

How does a book written in the 7th centuary lend credibility to supposed events that happened 8 centuaries ago?

According to Islam the Bible was indeed the word of true-God and still in the new revised international version, one may find some of the traces of the real revelations

Secondly, concerning your question; the book of Islam that is the Quran it is still present in its original form and it is believed that not a single word of it has been changed yet. .

Not really. It seems that the Quran is also quite prone to corruption like the Bible

http://www.bibleprob...ruptedquran.htm
http://answering-isl....uk/Quran/Text/
http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm
http://www.biblestud...ef/bibdef8.html

or if you into books check out

Michael Cook, The Koran: A very Short Introduction, Oxford, London 2000 and Ibn Warraq, The Origins of the Koran, Prometheus, New York 1998.

In Islam God is perceived as the most merciful and omnibenevolent being but simultaneously he is also perceived as the one infront of whom everyone is acountable for his actions.


And just like the christian god he will send the unbeliever to burning hell, just because he doesn't accept it. It's either turn or burn.

In this book, i.e. the Quran, God has spoken many a times about his mercy, love, benevolence and compassion


If the Allah is the Yahwah of Old testament, then pretty much the Old testament shows that he lacks all of the above. Where was this mercy, love, benevolence and compassion when he ordered the killing of children of enemies of the Isrealites?

The point I was trying to get at was why they choose to write back to this passage in the OT a type who was supposed to be a servant/prophet of God for judas iscariot whom they then go onto demonise in the NT.?


It is same guys who used a typological prophecy of Hosea 11:1 to fulfill the "prophecy" of Jesus leaving Egypt. Right afterwards in Hosea 11:2, Isreal is condemned to be idol worshipper. So why did the matthew use it to describe Jesus?...... :loser:

Like I said, it was nothing more than embellishments. Check out the following article

Something's Fishy

Edited by SkepticOfBible, 16 July 2006 - 06:02 AM.

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#20 Jubilant

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 07:00 AM

Respectfully Omniscient, all three Abrahamic religions contradict within its pages and its people a message of an all loving god. Except the Jewish beliefs do not claim that god will eternally torture anyone. As for Allah and Jesus? Any god that would eternally torture people for disbelief and/or "evil" is weak. If such a god exists, mercy would be to just let those people die and that Christianity and Islamic beliefs claim god will toture shows a sick and twisted god, not a god of love mercy and/or compassion.
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