scotter Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Non-Christian forum members of course are welcome to share too. Evangelical Christians, can I assume that if you are American evangelical biblical Christian, then you believe the Rapture? If you are an evangelical Christian but not a Rapture believer, please let me know, and please join in to share your thoughts. A little bit of history, the fact that there are evangelical churches today we trace from the acts of Martin Luther, Jean Calvin, John Knox, Arminius, lesser names such as Zwingli, Bullinger….. Were Martin Luther and the Reformers aware of the Rapture theology? Did they have any hints or writings on this Rapture theology? Is it more correct to say the Rapture thing originated from John Nelson Darby’s Dispensational Theology that Martin Luther was not aware of (considering J N Darby was born centuries after Martin Luther)? http://www.according2prophecy.org/darby.html http://www.theologicalstudies.org/dispen.html http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foun...bchistdevel.htm < read Rapture This rapture thing was particularly fired up after Israel re-established her own nation in 1948: 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:32-36, Israel is the fig tree. And I have heard WWI WWII are indicators: 10 Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. Luke 21:5-19 Earthquakes, famines, natural disasters…. I have to agree they are happening, and that’s why the founders of raptureready.com, and numerous evangelical Christians are so into it. Authors such as Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey they do a lot of charts showing the frequencies of earthquakes. Plus the 666-UPC bar code thing, Gog and Magog, final showdown in Armageddon…. "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken.” Matt 24:40-42. Raptured Christians need not go through the bowls and trumpets of havocs. My thought is: When you are betting so much on Rapture that it becomes part of the evangelical theology, would you have thought if it is not going to happen, the whole Protestant denominations and theology would fall to shame and merely to become a big JW / SDA? It is because evangelical apologetics, in evaluating “cults”, would point out Jehovah Witness prophecies of end times failed, Seven Day Adventists/Ellen G White prophecies of end times failed. For the Rapture Christians, believing every day is possibly the day, because NOW is the End Times, the Rapture can happen any minute because the indicators are here. Well one thousand years later, you and I are not here. With the technology of that time, I believe they can retrieve records of one thousand years earlier about Rapture theology and the issues, because we have old books of one thousand years still in good shape e.g. the Vatican library. (btw, Catholic Church does not share evangelical Rapture theology). Is it fair to be agreed upon this can-happen-any-minute rapture, if it doesn’t happen within the next thousand years, then it is false? Particularly I want to emphasize they are so drumming this beat of “can happen any minute”, “can happen now”. 1000 years of ‘now’ is fair and enough? Personally I thought one hundred years is enough. Say, 100 years from now, modern Israel is 157 years old. What are your thoughts that almost ALL evangelical churches might be ridiculed a hundred years later? If you have absolute faith that it will happen soon, I don’t wish to refute on that. It is a matter of personal faith. The thing is the denominations are betting so much on it, blowing horns so loud for it. After all the words, one more thing I wish to add is when the faithful Christian school bus driver is driving the kids to the public school, and the Rapture suddenly happens, I pray that the Rapture is in orderly manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guacamole Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Hey Scotter, There's a growing movement in evangelical Christianity with a different reading of eschatology and New Testament Prophecy. It centers around a school of thought sometimes called "Partial Preterism" or "Orthodox Preterism" which states that much of New Testament prophecy as contained in the Gospels and Revelation has already been fulfilled, as opposed to the sort of reading proposed by Darby, known as "Futurism" in which the prophecies are fulfilled at the end of the "Church Age". Here's a site that might be handy: http://www.preteristsite.com/ Honestly, I'd love to pontificate on it for you at length, considering how much I like the sight of my own words, but I don't know enough, either about Futurism or Preterism to comment. I know that there has been a growing reaction to "Futurism" precisely because of the failures of the sects you mention. Sometimes those sects are grouped under the name of "Millerite" sects so if you search under "Millerite Sects" in a search engine, you might find more fodder for your fire. Many people in my church are no longer futurists, which is odd, considering that I'm Plymouth Brethren and Darby founded the Brethren. Fun fact of the day: Aleister Crowley was raised Plymouth Brethren. See, we get all kinds... fwiw, guac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Come the rapture, can I have your car? Isn't the founder of preterism no long a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guacamole Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Come the rapture, can I have your car? Isn't the founder of preterism no long a Christian? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Come the rapture, you can have anything of mine that you want. I'm not sure who the modern founder of the preterist movement would be. Preterest eschatology extends back to the church fathers in the second and third centuries. fwiw guac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been borg again Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I pray to God, I am not around the Maternity Ward when the Rapture happens. With all the exploding pregnate woman and the fetuses flying away, it could get really messy, I just hope that the nonchristian mothers would be smart enough to grab hold of the umbilical chord and catch a free ride to heaven. This is the reason why I wear a raincoat whenever I hangout with pregnate nonchristians. My wife thinks I am being silly, but I'll have the last laugh when she gets showered with ambionic fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Few things are funnier than going over to TribForces and having them ask you what you are going to do when the Rapture comes. They spend a great deal of time telling you how you will only find the tooth fillings and clothes left by your ‘saved’ loved ones. It’s both sad and scary (and yes, funny) that a thinking human being could be reduced to believing in such a scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Plus the 666-UPC bar code thing, Gog and Magog, final showdown in Armageddon…. Which they now believe should be 616. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=44169 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Madame, After reading your post up there, the rapture seems like quite the turn-on for me. You know, all them nekkid peoples'n stuff. I always wondered what it would be like to do it while flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 When Momma Earth spits the Fundies off, I get all their mags don't I? n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 When Momma Earth spits the Fundies off, I get all their mags don't I? n Nivek, Why would you want porn when all them nekkid peoples will be floatin' around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Ugh. Rapture. If 157 years is enough, isn't 2000 years enough too? The apocolpytic sales pitch works just as well today as it did 2000 years ago. Maybe better since people like Hal Lindsey have blended Revelation with Daniel to create a new apocolyptic vision that depends on the existence of Israel (never mind that modern Israel is a secular republic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Come the rapture, can I have your car? Isn't the founder of preterism no long a Christian? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormwarden Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 As I recall, the rapture is a recent addition (added during the first Great Awakening, if I recall), and was never really a part of bibilical theology. http://www.economist.com/diversions/displa...tory_id=3490697 This is one of the better articles I was able to find on Google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Nivek, Why would you want porn when all them nekkid peoples will be floatin' around? Ya got me fair and square Fwee... (Ya dirty RAT!) Mag-azines... for copper coated lead injection tools, of which I have a plentiful supply. Mag-azines to feed such are a premium for mine.. I suspect many fundies have many of them. When Momma earth finally spits the fundies off into space *then* can I have them, huh?, huh? n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Few things are funnier than going over to TribForces and having them ask you what you are going to do when the Rapture comes. They spend a great deal of time telling you how you will only find the tooth fillings and clothes left by your ‘saved’ loved ones. It’s both sad and scary (and yes, funny) that a thinking human being could be reduced to believing in such a scenario. People are going to be naked in heaven! Good thing I'm not going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 People are going to be naked in heaven! Good thing I'm not going. Unless some hot pornstars are going too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peyton Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Of course, if they happen to die before the rapture, they believe God will ressurect their body and it will fly away. So we are going to have naked people and grizzled corpses, not to mention vats of ashes from the cremated, flying into heaven. Really, normally functioning adults believe this stuff. People so obviously do though don't they? Why do they? That's always baffled me. When I attended a church in town (I was there nearly 4 years) most of the congregation were middle-class professionals, so you'd think they would have had a modicum of intelligence yet they believed in such absurdities. You'd see all these BMW's and Mercedes Benz cars outside the church - doctors, lawyers, one chap who owned a string of companies and they all believed in the most bizarre and totally unproveable (outside of a book) things. It's alarming isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 WooHoo!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Ya got me fair and square Fwee... (Ya dirty RAT!) I knew what you meant. I's just playin' witch'ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 People are going to be naked in heaven! Good thing I'm not going. Yeah, it'd probably start another revolt, huh Cheffy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 WooHoo!! OOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I'm Telliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin'! TAP linked a smiley here from Tribbies Inc.!!! Isn't that some sort of unpardonable sin or somethin'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slayer-2004 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 LOL the rapture crowd . Whenever I am questioning the intellect of christians if I ever think they may have a shred of reasoning ability in them I look at the rapture beliefs . Its amazing that these idiots actually believe the rapture will come in their lifetime despite the fact that their grandparents and great great grandparents ect. all believed the same thing . Every single bad thing that happens causes the religious tweeds to act up and claim its the end times ... blissfully and idiotically unaware that this shit has been going on for centuries . Christian persecution in rome = end times Crusades = end times Black plague = end times Dark ages = end times Witch hunts = end times Age of reason = end times Fusion of church and state = end times Separation of church and state = end times *insert anything widely believed to have some evil in it by christians*= end times Your mom = end times ect. = end times The point is people have believed that the rapture was coming in their lifetime ever since christianity was created . Every generation of sheep since 70 A.D has found some natural disaster / some biblical interpretation / some political problem in order to justify belief that they will be magically warped into heaven before they see their natural death . The fact that most christians dont realize this says alot about their ability to detect obvious bullshit . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peyton Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 After the horrendous catastrophe that was the Asian tsunami disaster, there were preachers standing in my town centre warning shoppers passing by that this was indicative of the End Times. It's quite irresponsible really I feel because there are young children passing by and those of a weak disposition and this could terrify them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormwarden Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I have seen everything associated with the endtimes from the age of reason, to natural disasters and warfare. Too many false cries of wolf to believe them anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 The New Testament is loaded with urgent predictions about the end of days. From reading it, especially in Peter, I was given the impression that the authors really expected those things that had been promised to occur very, very soon. Of course it didn't happen. That doesn't mean, of course, that it's not going to. Anything is possible. But does that mean it's very likely? Luke 21:32 "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled". When I read this it seems very obvious that Jesus was speaking about his contemporaries, not generations yet unborn two thousand years in the future. That would be us. We're still here. And, as time goes on, and more predictions come and go, I really doubt we'll be going anywhere besides exploring the Universe. Besides, why miss out on all that fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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