What's The Point Of Debating?

[Scott]

I'm been thinking about all the debates going on around these forums. Debating between Christians and non-christians is kinda like multiplying apples and oranges, so to speak. Christians will never see it their way, and non-christians will never see it our way. Christians walk by faith and not by sight {2 Cor. 5:7}, yet atheists and agnostics walk by site. If we say "You must have faith", they will call us ignorant. If they say "Look around you, God doesn't exist" we will say "We see Him everyday" or something like that. We will never see eye to eye. The Bible says it's the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people anyway. I'm not saying we shouldn't have discussions, but why debate? It's like going around in circles. Christians have heard every argument in the book that nonchristians have to offer, and I'm sure it goes the other way around too. So, what's the point?

[OnceConvinced]

But seeds of doubt can be planted. In my case I was where you were a couple of years back, fighting tooth and nail to defend Jesus and the bible. But even though I didn't back down, doubts did start to creep in. But I agree with what you are saying. Everyone believes their side of the story and are convinced they are right. No matter what religion, sex, race, culture or whatever they are.

 

But then again, message boards are for people to discuss stuff. And let's face it even when debates get heated and we get really pissed off, it's still fun for the most of it right? Most people love a good argument.

[white_raven23]

So, what's the point?

 

Spare me your pessamistic hopelessness. The debating isn't intended for YOU anyway. See.....people get on the internet, and they browse around about things they are curious about. The find a place called Ex-Christian.Net.

 

They are curious. So they read a few articles. Lots of stuff makes sense. A lot of the questions they have asked within their own church that were insufficently answered or just glossed over with Jesus- sugar come back to mind. They start studying for themselves, and they start lurking in the debate forums. You don't have to be a member to view it.

 

And there is where YOU come in. You come in here serving up more Jesus-sugar, and completely fail to answer a straight question with either logic, or common sense. You just parrot the bible because in your fevered brain it has all the answers. But only to a person who has learned not to ask questions.

 

The lurker sees how you evade questions like a greased politician. You don't look clever, or knowing, or wise. You just look like a cheap car salesman. The lurker realizes that life CAN continue without religion. Some may go as far as atheism, other's may go for a more unorganized belief system.

 

Either way, they have freed their mind, and YOU have helped them do it, though not your intent.

 

So....thank you for being a bible-parrot. You do more for the cause of mental freedom than you could ever imagine.

 

And you thought we were debating you in order to open your mind.

 

Silly rabbit.

[Scott]

So, what's the point?

 

Spare me your pessamistic hopelessness. The debating isn't intended for YOU anyway. See.....people get on the internet, and they browse around about things they are curious about. The find a place called Ex-Christian.Net.

 

They are curious. So they read a few articles. Lots of stuff makes sense. A lot of the questions they have asked within their own church that were insufficently answered or just glossed over with Jesus- sugar come back to mind. They start studying for themselves, and they start lurking in the debate forums. You don't have to be a member to view it.

 

And there is where YOU come in. You come in here serving up more Jesus-sugar, and completely fail to answer a straight question with either logic, or common sense. You just parrot the bible because in your fevered brain it has all the answers. But only to a person who has learned not to ask questions.

 

The lurker sees how you evade questions like a greased politician. You don't look clever, or knowing, or wise. You just look like a cheap car salesman. The lurker realizes that life CAN continue without religion. Some may go as far as atheism, other's may go for a more unorganized belief system.

 

Either way, they have freed their mind, and YOU have helped them do it, though not your intent.

 

So....thank you for being a bible-parrot. You do more for the cause of mental freedom than you could ever imagine.

 

And you thought we were debating you in order to open your mind.

 

Silly rabbit.

 

Please be quiet if you don't know what you're talking about. This has nothing to do with me. I was speaking of Christians and unbelievers debating in general. And I never just dodge questions. I have said "I don't know" before. Now, would you rather me say that or just a bunch of crap?

[white_raven23]

Please be quiet if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I will not be quiet. And if I didn't know what I was talking about, I wouldn't have bothered posting in the first place.

 

 

This has nothing to do with me.

 

Oh?

 

You're not a Christian now? Or are these posts by 'Scott' just a hallucination?

 

I was speaking of Christians and unbelievers debating in general.

 

So? That's not hard......take my prior post, shed the idea that it's all about YOU, and generalize a bit.

 

The purpose is not to 'win' the debate. The purpose is for the audience (the lurkers) to decide which side of the debate makes the strongest argument (in their own opinion). The debate is nothing without the audience. Without the audience, you've just got pointless bickering.

[KT45]

watch this video. Should answer your questions scott

[All Gods Fail]

The purpose is not to 'win' the debate. The purpose is for the audience (the lurkers) to decide which side of the debate makes the strongest argument (in their own opinion). The debate is nothing without the audience. Without the audience, you've just got pointless bickering.

 

Wham! That's it exactly, WR! Fundies like Scott are just grist for the mill. Hopefully at least a few people reading these forums will be able to avoid the mental booby-trap of xtianity that we all fell victim to.

 

Something else to consider as well, Scott: a lot of us think that fundamentalism and religious extremism is a very, very bad thing. It retards minds, causes emotional dysfunction and advocates very questionable morality.

 

Taken to extremes (which it often is), and you have evil in it's purest form, where human suffering, freedom, and life itself is held to be less important than serving some puerile, bronze-age religious abstraction.

 

At it's best, religion is nonsense - at it's worst, it's deadly madness.

[Vigile]

Christians walk by faith and not by sight {2 Cor. 5:7}, yet atheists and agnostics walk by site. If we say "You must have faith", they will call us ignorant. If they say "Look around you, God doesn't exist" we will say "We see Him everyday" or something like that. We will never see eye to eye.

 

The difference between you and us Scott is that we were once you and we did in fact change our position.

 

This whole faith thing is just so insipidly stupid on its face though, even after all these years I can't come to grips with the fact that you people consider it a virtue.

 

Here is faith in action: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=11343&hl=

 

Just because the bible states that faith is a valid position does not make it so. Faith is for suckers and morons.

 

In any case, you don't have to debate us. We didn't walk into your church to disrupt your sermon. You walked into our house and started spraying your hateful blather.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Christians walk by faith and not by sight {2 Cor. 5:7}

 

That must be why you mungbeans are always tripping over all the furniture in heaven's waiting room. Your god needs to get you some seeing eye dogs, or maybe heal your shitty faith based vision. Or maybe he gets off on your bruised shins. Far be it from me to judge what entertains the almighty. I know the idea made me smile. Then fart.

[Checkmate]

...........

Christians have heard every argument in the book that nonchristians have to offer, and I'm sure it goes the other way around too. So, what's the point?

Wrong, wrong, wrong! You couldn't possibly be more wrong. How in the WORLD can you arrogantly state that "Christians have heard every argument in the book"? What, are YOU "God" now? You know this for a fact? Scott, I dare say that YOU haven't even heard every argument in the book. And the few that you have "heard" you summarily dismiss as "worldly wisdom", an "attack from Satan", or a "testing of your faith by God". The utter pointlessness of debate comes from YOUR side of the aisle and your blatant disingenuousness when you don't confess that you have encountered the Truth of our arguments.

 

Have you read this post yet? Why Christians Just Don't Get It I'm not asking for you input or insight on this thread. I'm just curious as to whether or not you READ it. Read both it and the attendant links I provided about Delusion and Compartmentalization.

 

Short and sweet, Scott. You AND White_Raven23 are both correct. It IS pointless debating with a Christian (IF your purpose is to "win" an argument). Christians DON'T listen! However, as WR23 put it, our debates are NOT for the purpose of convincing YOU of anything. We're arguing our position for the benefit of LURKERS who are reading our words. And when YOU make such a dismal showing in the theater of ideas against us, it convinces and sways the LURKER to abandon Christianity as the retarded cult that it is.

 

Glory!

 

So keep those weak-kneed "faith" arguments coming, Scott. The more lame, the better. (For US, that is. )

[white_raven23]

Please be quiet if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Well Scott? Looks like others agree with me. Guess I know what I'm talking about after all. I didn't get that Psych degree by looking pretty and keeping quiet.

 

Be quiet. Pshhhh!

 

Paul was a misogynist prick. Hope you like spineless helpless doormat damsels Scott. Because that's what you will attract by emulating Paul.

[Darkside]

Typical. Scott accepts the challenge of answering the list of contradictions in the Bible, which he can't do, so therefore debating is pointless. Butch up or shut up, Scott! Where's your answers?

[Ramen666]

I can agree with that. I wasn't a member till a couple of weeks ago. I indeed used to be a lurker on Evilbible's website then I came to this website because it's more open. I lurked for about a couple months reading disscussions every day. I learned a lot of stuff about Christianity that Heaven forbid being taught at Church. It would destroy the congragation in what they believe in. It would shatter a lot of people's belief. But everyone is close minded. My best friend is vary closed minded about other religions and the chance Christianity may be wrong.

 

I was already an athesist when I came here because I like this community a lot better than some other non Christian forums. But I used to be like you Scott, non questioning. Then I struggled and learned a revelation. GOD IS MAN'S CREATION. Just like the rain God, Zeus, The Easter Bunny, Allah, magical unicorns, knomes. It is all fake to me.. When ever I go into a Church (when my parents have the sudden urge to go even though we haven't been in a couple years )I honestly can't take it serious. I see flaws in the logic. " This book is Holy and 100% accurate

Because I know a lot that none of the saps do at Church know. Like the evil's of God, the history of religion, why people leave religon ( at Church you don't believe in God, you are nobody). These are all real people Christians usually don't take the time and see the other side. Which I am glad some Christians actually see this website.

 

The reason to come here is try to share beliefs which Christians shun everything. Except gawd. It is time athesist have their own turn.

[Ouroboros]

I'm been thinking about all the debates going on around these forums. Debating between Christians and non-christians is kinda like multiplying apples and oranges, so to speak. Christians will never see it their way, and non-christians will never see it our way.

Yes and no. It's a matter of paradigms and frameworks; how you deal with them, and how you change them. A change of view comes from inside after contemplation and inner thought, so no debate is ever really the means to convert someone into your point of view.

 

There are Christians that have come to the site and come to see things a different way. Some have come more understanding, and some even have left Christianity. Also I've learned a lot from Christians that have come here and had a good attitude and were willing to discuss in a friendly way. So my answer is: no, it is not useless.

 

On the other hand, the purpose of this site is not to be a Christian v. Non-Christian debate forum, but its purpose is for newly de-converted who needs an oasis to rant, discuss and get their stuff they think about out in the open for scrutiny. We allow Christians to come and debate to a certain degree, but it's not the main reason for this site. So in that sense, very true, there's no use for Christians to come here for a fishing expedition for new converts. This site is most likely one of the hardest to find one single person that is willing to again fall for the scam called Christianity.

 

Since you've realized the futility in your project of re-converting someone here, the question remains why do you even bother about it?

[Legion]

Scott, I think the debate is good. I am of the opinion that the more dialogue there is the better. At the very least it sharpens our debating and communication skills, yes?

 

By the way, I have no aversion to actually writing out the word "Christian". I wonder if you have an aversion to saying ex-Christian. I think there is a subtle but meaningful distinction to make between non-Christian and ex-Christian.

[Open_Minded]

I'm been thinking about all the debates going on around these forums. Debating between Christians and non-christians is kinda like multiplying apples and oranges, so to speak. Christians will never see it their way, and non-christians will never see it our way.

<snip>

Since you've realized the futility in your project of re-converting someone here, the question remains why do you even bother about it?

 

HanSolo, I couldn't agree more.

 

Scott, first please realize that not all Christians get into debating matches with all non-Christians. In the months I've been here I've had some very meaningful discussion. I like Ex-C because people here THINK, they don't just believe something because someone told them to believe it or because it's written in the Bible. They think it through, they think through the larger implications of a set of beliefs and they ask questions.

 

Secondly, I'm with HanSolo - if you're not here to "re-convert" someone then exactly why is it that you are here? As you said, "non-Christians will never see it our way"? So, why stick around?

 

It's not that you're not welcome, but something tells me you're not willing to view the world from both sides. Folks here have already been Christian. I've had my years as an Ex-Christian. It's possible for us to view things from multiple angles. Something tells me that you cannot view things from both sides of the equation (and worse yet) are unwilling to view things from both sides.

[Ouroboros]

You see Scott? OM is a Christian, and I'm a non-theist, and yet we agree!

 

Ain't it beautiful when there's no conflict in the paradigms, because they are set up in such a way that they allow different views? Here's the true face of the problem of fundamentalism; it doesn't allow multiple-choice-answers to the questions of life.

[Ramen666]

You see Scott? OM is a Christian, and I'm a non-theist, and yet we agree!

 

Ain't it beautiful when there's no conflict in the paradigms, because they are set up in such a way that they allow different views? Here's the true face of the problem of fundamentalism; it doesn't allow multiple-choice-answers to the questions of life.

 

 

I could never agree anymore with that. Funamentalism allows no mulitple answers and doesn't see any other views.

[KT45]

Since you've realized the futility in your project of re-converting someone here, the question remains why do you even bother about it?

Good question Hans. Please Scott, do tell why you are here when it is pointless?

[Piprus]

I'm been thinking about all the debates going on around these forums. Debating between Christians and non-christians is kinda like multiplying apples and oranges, so to speak. Christians will never see it their way, and non-christians will never see it our way. Christians walk by faith and not by sight {2 Cor. 5:7}, yet atheists and agnostics walk by site. If we say "You must have faith", they will call us ignorant. If they say "Look around you, God doesn't exist" we will say "We see Him everyday" or something like that. We will never see eye to eye. The Bible says it's the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people anyway. I'm not saying we shouldn't have discussions, but why debate? It's like going around in circles. Christians have heard every argument in the book that nonchristians have to offer, and I'm sure it goes the other way around too. So, what's the point?

 

Scott, young man (and I am assuming you are a young man) I have read your posts on other threads on this site, and you at least appear to be interested. You at least appear to be curious as to why, if a person was a devout christian at one time, they would abandon that belief system...abandon "the faith", as it were. If you investigate, you will find out. But instead, according to your posts, you seem intent on giving your personal testimony, witnessing to your own "conversion", and it seems, trying to re-convert us to your point of view. If that is what you mean by questioning the debating matter, then you will certainly meet up with nothing but frustration and disappointment. Understand that we have investigated these issues, and thought them out very carefully. After all, I initially christianized as a young child, when during a fiery baptist sermon I became scared shitless of what would happen to me if I died and went to hell without having professed faith in jesus. During my adolescence, I questioned all that fundie doctrine and concluded (to make a long story short) that it was myth, not reality. In subsequent years I found out that there is no credible evidence that jesus christ ever existed. Rather, the NT is basically a godman story consistent with other middle eastern myths. jesus didn't do anything that was not earlier attributed to mithras, attis, horus, krishna, or other mythological characters.

 

From reading your posts, it appears that you heard the "gospel", accepted it, and now you try to defend your "faith". If that's what you see as your mission in life, go right ahead, my friend. But understand...when you come to a place like this, full of people who reject the myth and instead find other views of the world that are more compatible, logical, and evidence-based, your apologetics are not going to be instantly received. They are going to be argued, negated, and otherwise torn to shreds. And your stock, christian evangelistic buzz-phrases are going to be dismissed off-hand, for the simple reason that they cannot be defended with facts and logical argument.

 

So in the end, debate may be pointless if you do not seek to learn, only to defend your position. If you want to learn why ex-christians (of any stripe) are what they are, pull up a chair, listen, question, and learn. You will come out a wiser man.

 

 

“To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master” (Mark Twain)

[roman]

So, what's the point?

 

There is a point; I have seen it.

[Antlerman]

Scott, I think the debate is good. I am of the opinion that the more dialogue there is the better. At the very least it sharpens our debating and communication skills, yes?

 

By the way, I have no aversion to actually writing out the word "Christian". I wonder if you have an aversion to saying ex-Christian. I think there is a subtle but meaningful distinction to make between non-Christian and ex-Christian.

Exactly. Well put. Dialog is all about growth. Shutting out dialog is results in stagnation of the mind and spirit. This is the unfortunate product of organized religion in a closed system - the halting of human advancement. Debate is good on every level. Arguement is emotional and out of control and I won't (or should I say try not to) engage in it because argument is fruitless.

 

As far as the Xtian abbreviation thing? X is the Greek letter that is the first letter of Xpistos (translated Kristos, translated Christ. Look at a fish on the back of a car with the Greek letters inside it. It is the fist letter of each word which says Christ Jesus Son God. Xmas is Christ mass. abreviated with a Greek letter for Christ. Same thing with Xtian. Feel better?

[Astreja]

It is quite possible for people of opposing factions to have a decent debate. But only if there is genuine curiosity and mutual respect.

 

More often than not, Ex-C is ambushed by someone who:

 

- Refuses to accept that we are what we say we are (which is when the "You were never a Christian" bullshit starts flying);

 

- Keeps trying to play the "faith" card, yet demands that *we* prove the nonexistence of something that has contradictory qualities (a "loving" god that has hissy fits and annihilates entire nations) and no detectable physical attributes.

 

- And professes misguided pity for us (which is when we typically respond with "Fuck you and the Messiah you rode in on.")

 

If you don't like the rules of the game here, Scott, bugger off because we are not gonna change them for you.

[Abiyoyo]

I'm been thinking about all the debates going on around these forums. Debating between Christians and non-christians is kinda like multiplying apples and oranges, so to speak. Christians will never see it their way, and non-christians will never see it our way. Christians walk by faith and not by sight {2 Cor. 5:7}, yet atheists and agnostics walk by site. If we say "You must have faith", they will call us ignorant. If they say "Look around you, God doesn't exist" we will say "We see Him everyday" or something like that. We will never see eye to eye. The Bible says it's the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people anyway. I'm not saying we shouldn't have discussions, but why debate? It's like going around in circles. Christians have heard every argument in the book that nonchristians have to offer, and I'm sure it goes the other way around too. So, what's the point?

 

Remember Scott. The author of Hebrews is unknown.

 

Heb 3:12-14

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

(NKJ)

[Crunk Bishop]

Christians walk by faith and not by sight {2 Cor. 5:7}, yet atheists and agnostics walk by site. If we say "You must have faith", they will call us ignorant. If they say "Look around you, God doesn't exist" we will say "We see Him everyday" or something like that. We will never see eye to eye.

 

The difference between you and us Scott is that we were once you and we did in fact change our position.

 

 

 

very well put, Vigile!

 

we used to be just like you, Scott. i myself was a "fundamentalist of fundamentalists," until one day...