True Grit Lady

[Ex-COG]

I do a lot of web surfing, and follow a lot of links. I ended up at a blog called truegrit, where I found an interesting post from last October...about us. We're disgruntled, lost and wounded souls, have logically impaired contentions, and also are prodigals ripe for evangelisation. Do you think this lady has visited on the forums? Those of you who engage in the debate forums might know.

 

I’m not trying to make you mad

…. and I don’t suggest you do it on a Sunday, but if you want some idea of the hostility against Christians, especially from those once within the ranks, I suggest you visit Ex Christian Net.

http://truegrit.weblogs.us/2006/10/22/im-n...o-make-you-mad/

[truegrit]

I do a lot of web surfing, and follow a lot of links. I ended up at a blog called truegrit, where I found an interesting post from last October...about us. We're disgruntled, lost and wounded souls, have logically impaired contentions, and also are prodigals ripe for evangelisation. Do you think this lady has visited on the forums? Those of you who engage in the debate forums might know.

 

Hi,hi, hi! True Grit "Lady" at your service, I can answer that for you.

 

I have not been on this particular forum, but have engaged many an atheist and former "disgruntled" ex-Christian in debate forums elsewhere- mainly intp forum pre-2001 and mostly Delphi afterwards. My father ( now departed) was an atheist so you might say I cut my teeth on religious debate.

 

I wouldn't group you [ex-Christians, or even the subgroup of atheists] generally, but I do think that some ex-Christians can have their hurts healed and that there is always a possibility for revelatory insight. The very use of the term"prodigal" is self-explanatory, don't you think?

 

I find it very interesting that your site is so high on the religion voting site, and the evangelistic fervor I find among your ranks. I am most interested in Christians behaving true to their faith- I don't really concern myself too much with trying to beat anyone over the head with Bibles,etc. I have mostly retired from debating in forums.

 

But yes, after being in numerous debates I do think many have "logically impaired contentions" . I doubt that most ex-Christians come to their stance mainly through logic.

 

Hope this staisfied your curiousity.

 

I appreciate your sense of adventure in turning up at my blog, thanks!

[Asimov]

Hi True Grit Lady:

 

Could you provide an example of "logically impaired contentions"?

[roman]

Also, could you tell us why you deleted my comment in your blog? Of course we expect this from Xians.

[mwc]

I just took a quick peek at her blog and it appears to me that she assumes we're mainly young folk over here. Maybe that's true...I don't know...but I'm more in those middle years myself (I'll be 40 in a couple years). After ~30 years as a believer I can say without hesitation that I did not "fall away" because church wasn't family enough for me or anything like that. If having a cult atmosphere is what is required to keep people "in the fold" then the fold should be allowed to dissipate once and for all.

 

I left simply because the "promises" made by the xian god were not kept. When I needed "comforting" all I got was silence. Plain and simple. If I need to rely on the "church" for comfort then what is the point? I can get the same level of comfort anywhere without the dogma. If humans must fulfill the role of god then humans are god. If humans are god then religion is a pointless exercise.

 

Oh, and believe me, this was not the only crisis in my life. It's not quite that simple but I'm not going to explain every single detail of it here. The whole picture is quite complex but the trigger, the very thing that started the whole domino effect, is, to most everyone, a minor issue. Stupid even. To me, however, it was something that would snowball into losing my faith (especially when combined with other events that would come along later on). It's just amazing how people can deal with so many "big" issues like the death of loved ones and things like that but something that might be considered minor can really throw a wrench in the works. I guess it takes something small to get through the "chink" in the "armor of god" when all those large things just bounce right off?

 

So to minimize and generalize the events and ages of those people who choose to stop believing in the xian god is a choice that is, even by her own admission, not researched and therefore dishonest.

 

I noticed one post in this thread by her. Great. I don't care if she posts again. At least read the testimonies and a few other messages. This way you'll at least be able to say you made the effort to know us before commenting on us. As for our comments on xians. She's right. Many are angry or outrageous in some way.

 

In my life I've personally known literally hundreds of xians from many denominations and walks of life. I haven't just read about them but I have been friends with them and interacted with them. I've been to their homes and some of their churches. I've listened to their doctrines and all of that. It has been far above and beyond the what most, if not nearly all, xians know about apostates. I may not know each and every xian personally but my sample of xians far outweighs any xians sample of apostates. To say we're unfair is a lie. Everything I say is based on my own personal experience as a xian and my own personal experiences with xians (primarily Lutheran and Baptist). Not from the outside looking in but from the inside as one of them. This is something I can say is true for most everyone on this site. As with any other cult being exposed by your own is a painful experience and one that is best downplayed. We are embraced by those who dislike and disbelieve your teachings just as those who are apostate from other cults are embraced by xianity when they reveal the inner workings of its competition.

 

One final note. You mention the prodigal son. We're not "prodigal," we're apostate. Basically, we can't go back like it or not. Even if we join the chorus, and it turns on the whole myth is true, come judgment day we all get burned. This view goes back to the old literature both canon and not so there isn't much that can be done.

 

mwc

[Ex-COG]

If she assumes we're all young folk, she needs to look a little closer. I think we are quite a diverse bunch (thus the interesting and often heated discussions!), age and otherwise. I happen to be 45.

 

Logic is different for the Christian than it is for the ex-Christian. (I'm mostly thinking of evangelical/fundamentalist/conservative Christians, though it may be true for the liberal Christians also.) We could say that "X didn't make sense in the Bible" or "Y did this to me" or "God didn't give/do Z for me", and then point out how this lead us to examine the faith, and its claims and results, and how it did not logically line up with what was professed, thus leading us to conclude that the whole belief system didn't hold water. But many Christians will read this, and say "X didn't make sense because of the hardness of your heart, or it wasn't properly taught to you; you need a true teacher/minister to guide you!" or "Y may have done that, and that's something they may need to go to God about, but you just need to keep your eyes on Jesus, forgive them, and keep walking in His guidence" or "God knows what is best for you, thus Z was not in your best interests, or you asked incorrectly, or maybe God wants you to learn something from not having Z" (this will be said even if Z was a request for serious, not frivolous items, such as healing). In other words, what may have led us to examine our faith in a logical manner, is twisted into "You just don't understand X, Y, Z" or "You were hurt by X, Y, Z", and other blah-blah reasons that I'm sure we have all heard. They turn what is logical into excuses.

 

I wouldn't group you [ex-Christians, or even the subgroup of atheists]generally, but I do think that some ex-Christians can have their hurts healed and that there is always a possibility for revelatory insight. The very use of the term"prodigal" is self-explanatory, don't you think?

 

prod·i·gal /ˈprɒdɪgəl/ Pronunciation[prod-i-guhl]

–adjective

1. wastefully or recklessly extravagant: prodigal expenditure.

2. giving or yielding profusely; lavish (usually fol. by of or with): prodigal of smiles; prodigal with money.

3. lavishly abundant; profuse: nature's prodigal resources.

–noun

4. a person who spends, or has spent, his or her money or substance with wasteful extravagance; spendthrift.

 

So, we exChristians are wasteful, extravagant, and spendthrifts? Actually, I prefer definition #2. Yes, I like to think of myself as a giving person.

[white_raven23]

As a 30 year old childfree female holder of a Bachelor's (and no college loan debt) with sufficient income to pay the rent, maintain my part of my 401K, pay for my enjoyments, and have the money to travel abroad every other year....

 

I don't quite think "prodigal" fits me.

 

My uncle once called me "tighter than the bark on a tree" (don't go there...I don't have that kind of family).

[Lycorth]

Last I checked, we are hostile against Xianity, not every single person who believes in it. The only exceptions would be those who use their Xianity as an excuse to harm others in some way, both historical figures and living persons.

 

To suggest we hate all Xians is just typical Xian bigotry. Not surprised much, here.

 

If she wants to find "hate" she should look at her god, who demands we all love him or else burn eternally. Idiot.

[YDOAPS]

Ex-Christians are just itching

 

I have a few nails with which to scratch that itch, but I am not going to spend large amounts of time at it right now-see below for what I am willing to do. I am “The True Grit Lady” cited in one of their posts.

 

They have threads wondering why Christian don’t ( I was going to say “troll”…but we don’t do that, do we?) visit their forums and try to win them over to our side of things… or win them back, maybe. Actually I wondered the same thing, but then I also know the answer to that.

 

My original thread had more to do with preventing the disillusioned and disheartened and spending time talking with those who wish to talk things out concerning their experiences or their real disagreements,etc.

 

Well, welcome to anyone who ventures here from Ex-Christian.Net. I’ll tell you what, since I don’t have lots of time for forums ( which is why I blog rather than debate on forums) I offer this: if you have topics or contentions- write them in short form or post the thread from your forum in my comments, and now that I am registered on your place I will attempt to answer you here in a post or there in your threads. I think discussion is good thing.

Here's today's blog entry.

[Amethyst]

 

We did not all leave because we were disgruntled. I left because I realized I could not live a lie and pretend to believe in things that I did not. Could you join a Santa Claus-worshipping cult? I couldn't. To me, Christianity is the same thing. It's a myth, nothing more. It would be like worshipping Captain Kirk and the rest of the Star Trek crew -- as much as Shatner's ego might like that, and even though I like Star Trek, I couldn't do that. I certainly don't hate everything about Christianity, but I've learned that what I don't hate (the golden rule, for example) also belonged to earlier religions.

 

My general philosophy is, each to their own. So long as no one is harmed, I do not care what people believe. Of course, harm is the caveat and that includes mental as well as physical harm. Telling people they will burn in hell forever is emotional harm and I can't be part of any religion like that anymore. Since most religions have something similar, I am agnostic.

[roman]

Ex-Christians are just itching

 

I have a few nails with which to scratch that itch, but I am not going to spend large amounts of time at it right now-see below for what I am willing to do. I am “The True Grit Lady” cited in one of their posts.

 

They have threads wondering why Christian don’t ( I was going to say “troll”…but we don’t do that, do we?) visit their forums and try to win them over to our side of things… or win them back, maybe. Actually I wondered the same thing, but then I also know the answer to that.

 

My original thread had more to do with preventing the disillusioned and disheartened and spending time talking with those who wish to talk things out concerning their experiences or their real disagreements,etc.

 

Well, welcome to anyone who ventures here from Ex-Christian.Net. I’ll tell you what, since I don’t have lots of time for forums ( which is why I blog rather than debate on forums) I offer this: if you have topics or contentions- write them in short form or post the thread from your forum in my comments, and now that I am registered on your place I will attempt to answer you here in a post or there in your threads. I think discussion is good thing.

Here's today's blog entry.

This woman is delusional. She misrepresents what is said here, and she obviously has us confused with some other group.

[Unknowing1]

Not sure but it seems this lady is really not quite up to speed on the truth of the world. First off I'm 44, work full-time, pay my mortgage and other bills on time. Don't have a boat sitting in my driveway, don't live in the most affluent area of town. Give of myself and money to others in need. I have two children while not home-schooled were and are in the top of their class, both have been identified as gifted. They too volunteer their time to help others on a weekly basis.

 

As for my reasons for leaving Christianity, it wasn't because of being hurt. I care greatly for the minister at my last church and still keep in touch with everyone from there. This minister was the first to ever say to me that she didn't have all the answers and that IF Jesus is real and heaven really exists she had lots of questions for Him. When we talked it was a breath of fresh air, here was someone who studied theology, who talked rationally and didn't just tell me to have faith. When you questioned her, really questioned her she told you the truth instead of just feeding you a bunch of garbage.

 

My main reason for leaving Chrisitianity is because I am a Humanist. Also it was because of information I stumbled across while looking for a new denomination to attend. I was born and raised catholic. I never agreed with the catholic religion but remained catholic out of respect for my mother. After she died I started looking at religion more closely in order to switch to another denomination that was more in keeping with my beliefs. I did finally switch and I gave it a try for several months but the problem was that by the time I had made the switch I had learned so much that only confirmed seeds of doubt that I had since 7th grade. I believe the Bible is not what everyone thinks it is nor is Jesus who everyone thinks he was. I finally decided that I no longer could be a hypocrite and left religion totally. I am a happier person because of it. The time I wasted on religion I am putting to better use by helping the disadvantaged.

 

You know what, even if I am wrong (which I don't believe I am) I accept the consequences and will gladly fry in Hell for all eternity. If some being needs their ego stoked that much and is such a mean bastard I don't want to be around them anyway.

 

If Christians would get off their butts and research like I did, think about history and the atrocities that occured with God not doing anything to prevent them, read the Bible and really question it I think more of them would realize just what they are worshipping.

[Thackerie]

... If Christians would get off their butts and research like I did, think about history and the atrocities that occured with God not doing anything to prevent them, read the Bible and really question it I think more of them would realize just what they are worshipping.

 

That is how one becomes an EX-christian. I think it is significant that the process of becoming a christian is the polar opposite.

 

That is, most people who call themselves christians were simply born into it and accept it as the norm without questioning it or bothering to do any research. Others become christians for emotional reasons; i.e.; they become infatuated with a figment of their own imagination.

 

But, did anyone ever convert to fundamental christianity as a rational act, reading extensively (not just christian apologetics which are meant to keep gullible people in the fold), studying it in comparison with other religions and learning the history of their religion? If there is such a rare creature, I have yet to encounter it.

[Piprus]

Well, I'm certainly no youthful prodigal, longing to return to the collective. I've got almost 56 years behind me, and have been an ex-christian for about 40 of them. I was never abused in any way in church, in fact there was a lot about it that I liked. But eventually, I simply concluded that the doctrine was nonsense, and I could no longer be a part of it without living in a lie.

 

And like Azzy, I'm still waiting to hear what the true grit lady means by a logically impaired contention.

[Mike D]

I am not sure what her idea of "young" is but I didn't leave Christianity until my 30's. I also have a professional career, am an investor and recently started my own company, of which I am president. So it's not like I am sitting on the couch on my ass smoking pot all day.... not that I would have any complaints if that's what I did choose to do

 

I think some people might assume everyone here is "young" because sometimes you do get occassional profanity and anger laced rants and posts, which some might say is a sign of immaturity. Which may be true but so what, unless I am mistaken everyone was 16 at some point and at that age I personally had lots of profanity and ranting to go around.

 

Another factor I think might be that people may assume that anyone who would dare to leave Christianity must be "young and stupid" and/or "rebellious" because what smart educated adult would ever dream of throwing away their eternal salvation for no reason?

[Amethyst]

I am not sure what her idea of "young" is but I didn't leave Christianity until my 30's. I also have a professional career, am an investor and recently started my own company, of which I am president. So it's not like I am sitting on the couch on my ass smoking pot all day.... not that I would have any complaints if that's what I did choose to do

 

I think some people might assume everyone here is "young" because sometimes you do get occassional profanity and anger laced rants and posts, which some might say is a sign of immaturity. Which may be true but so what, unless I am mistaken everyone was 16 at some point and at that age I personally had lots of profanity and ranting to go around.

 

Another factor I think might be that people may assume that anyone who would dare to leave Christianity must be "young and stupid" and/or "rebellious" because what smart educated adult would ever dream of throwing away their eternal salvation for no reason?

 

Or it could be a sign of reverse age discrimination. Many people over 40 view people under 40 as young and inexperienced without taking their life experiences into account.

[StewartP]

She's invited dialogue on her blog. I've left a few comments. We'll see if she replies or not (or deletes).

 

For those who don't wish to drive traffic her way, here are the comments I left:

 

You're right, discussion is a good thing.

 

I gave my life & heart to Jesus when I was 21 and for many years was very involved in a Baptist church. I felt I had a personal relationship with God, I studied the bible and spent time in prayer. Our church taught that many demoniations of christianity were “cults” - Mormonism, JW’s, Christian Scientists etc. Other religions - Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc were just plain WRONG. Spiritualism, mystics psychics, astrology was of the devil.

But when I tried to evaluate exactly WHAT made our beliefs right and theirs all wrong it started to unravel.

I was already atheist regarding Zeus and Jove and Neptune and Thor, I mean those gods are just fairy tales . . . .

 

And then I realised.

 

It's all fairy tales.

See, to a large extent, you are almost as atheist as I. You don't believe in Allah either. Or Ganesh. You don't believe in Shiva do you? You don't believe in Odin do you? I simply go one further. I no longer believe in Jehovah.

 

best regards

 

Stew

[Taphophilia]

Misrepresentation and assumption are the cornerstones of Christianity. Without them, it would die. Is it any wonder Ms. True Grit practices the very things her religon is built upon.

[Legion]

I will never go back. I couldn't even if I wanted to. Like others have said it would be like trying to believe in Santa Claus again.

[♦ nivek ♦]

When any sectarian lands here they find that they will get a damned good dose of the "cure" we have used for our "itch".

 

Problem for most is that there is such a volume of answers to their inquires, questions, comments that they are soon swamped trying to "shoot every target" that is indexed in their way.

 

Ms or Mrs. Grit with her banal and xtianeasespreche will soon go the way of most of the lightweights who have come here with a handful of the same rancid sectarianism and BS we left at the meeting hall doors when we left.

 

Those who have found a place to post here have made themselves welcome with a more open attitude and the ability to say "I dunno, but I'm willing to listen".

 

kFL

[StewartP]

Ilona has responded to my comments on her blog.

 

To her credit, she is open, and polite. However she does make some assumptions about how I think:

 

No, Stew, I am not atheist…I am monotheist. Believing in one God I am still in the theist category.

 

It is life stories like yours that really interest me. I take people and myself ona WYSISWYG basis, so I don’t discount anything you say about feeling you had a very personal relationship with God. What I tend to be looking for is the rest of the story as they say. There is more going on in your alienation. I don’t know that knowing what that is would make a difference with you…but it could make a difference with those I have personal contact with, or even just my own children.

 

From where I am at on this, Jesus is so real within my own personal experience fo Him that I don’t understand where one gets to actually seeing Him as myth… I understand better the issues of disillusionment and drifting away. But that is just because of my own subjective view.

 

I think if we talked further, what I would find with you is a serious disconnect between your present convictions and your ongoing human need for meaningfulness. I think this will give you trouble somehwere along the line. I predict you will move toward some form of theism at some point. Paganism, unless you rediscovered Christ, would be the most likely direction I would guess from what you have shared here.

 

People need meaning and connection, that part doesn’t disappear. There is where atheism breaks down for a person.

My replies:

 

It’s an old chestnut Ilona. “Life is pointless for an atheist” People do need a meaning and purpose to their life, and there is plenty of purpose around without bringing a need for god into the equation. I have my family and my love for them. I have my children and their future and their needs. I have my job. I have my garden. I have my own development as a person, to try and improve myself. All of these things, and many more, give my life purpose.

And, I no longer have to waste precious time talking to invisible friends!

 

and

 

but you are atheist regarding Zeus? You don’t believe he exists as a god do you? And you don’t believe in Allah either.

 

Why don’t you believe in other gods?

 

The reason/s you don’t believe in other gods are the reasons I no longer believe in the Christian god. (or gods, because Christianity has at least 3 gods and gives Satan enough power to rank in the pantheon too)

[Vixentrox]

Typical Xtian cluesless about why we left. Actually reading the Bible was a big part of my leaving the faith. The unanswered prayers, even the ones where I pray for god to save my faith was another. Certainly didnt jive with what ye olde buybull said about prayer. I'm young to some....mid 30s but that is probably not what she meant.

[truegrit]

wow. lots of activity here!

First, roman,::hugs:: I genuinely apologize that your comment got deleted. I have sometimes hundreds of spam comments -which is why I was forced to put everything on moderation, and the good ones sometimes get deleted accidentally. My server host has been down a huge amt of time the last month or so because of spam attacks. I don't delete things of consequence usually- thrive on the clash There are all of my real excuses.

 

Stew was over there. I'm here, now.

 

"young"...is relative, isn't it? Not terribly consequential, but I am concerned with teen through twenty somethings on the basis that they are making loads of life determining decisions that alter much of what their future choices will involve. Amethyst, you said:"I didn't leave Christianity until my 30's" Then you are not my target audience in what I was speaking of on my blog. For you, I would wait until life had brought you around to where you are interested. Sometimes that happens... but you are probably not going on the spiel of others. I would speak differently with you, here or in RL than those who are caught up in naive and simplistic answers.

 

You also said:"people may assume that anyone who would dare to leave Christianity must be "young and stupid" and/or "rebellious" because what smart educated adult would ever dream of throwing away their eternal salvation for no reason? "

 

some,maybe. I find that more often people get invested in something that conflicts in some way and leave for that reason. There is also the area of hurts, or disillusionment, sometimes laced with original misunderstanding. There is out right rejection for reasons I can't say to know. People are complex. But the answers are sometimes simple, you just have to let them speak for themselves. Which is why my interest here...

 

"cluesless about why we left." I don't think this comment is fair as spoken here. Are you all one and the same in reasons for opposing Christianity? I don't think so. I am interested in discovery of different reasons and patterns.

 

"she does make some assumptions"

that is likely true. I think that is how all of us generally operate. And actually, don't you think that such assumptions can stand until proven wrong? The ex-Christians make plenty of assumptions about me. But I expect that as part of the process and don't waste time complaining about it;) Does that make me better? Not really. It does mean I am more practiced in this type of discussion- which is the assumption I am making at this time.

 

"Mrs. Grit with her banal and xtianeasespreche will soon go the way of most of the lightweights"

Lady Grit to you, Sir.

 

I didn't promise to stay here, but I bet I can bat any of *your stuff* out of the ball park...if only because you are so sure of yourself. I love to play with those;) "I dunno, but I'm willing to listen" How about this...I'm willing to discuss? "listen" automatically puts you in the teacher chair and me in the student chair. I don't think you have proven you deserve your chair, yet. If we discuss we are peer, until one can show something of substance. I don't claim it yet, but I don't give it to you yet, either.

 

Dear burnedout, if you were as practiced in logic as you say you wouldn't be caught with a statement like "You obviously have NEVER really got to know any of us. ". Support that from our little time spent with one another. Be careful of "NEVER" especially in caps. It betrays some things. You can tell me 'what', I don't try to guess, but just look for what you are willing to offer...

 

but you gave one heck of an insight with your lapse of logic.

[Lycorth]

but you gave one heck of an insight with your lapse of logic.

 

The only lapse of logic here is yours.

 

The burden of proof is on your shoulders, so prove your god exists, if you can.

[truegrit]

MWC- you deserve your very own reply.

 

I just took a quick peek at her blog

I reposted past discussions and essays if you are interested

 

 

I left simply because the "promises" made by the xian god were not kept. When I needed "comforting" all I got was silence. Plain and simple.

Your experience and your assumptions about it; it doesn't really prove anything about God, on peer level I would counter with my own subjective experience. I am sorry for what you relay here, however...because hurt is hurt.

 

"The whole picture is quite complex but the trigger, the very thing that started the whole domino effect, is, to most everyone, a minor issue. Stupid even. To me, however, it was something that would snowball into losing my faith (especially when combined with other events that would come along later on). It's just amazing how people can deal with so many "big" issues like the death of loved ones and things like that but something that might be considered minor can really throw a wrench in the works. I guess it takes something small to get through the "chink" in the "armor of god" when all those large things just bounce right off?"

 

I thought this was a very profound thought, actually.

 

"So to minimize and generalize the events and ages of those people who choose to stop believing in the xian god is a choice that is, even by her own admission, not researched and therefore dishonest."

 

how you extrapolated this, I don't know.

 

"I noticed one post in this thread by her. Great. I don't care if she posts again."

you may get tired of my posting if I decide to stay the course;)

 

"As for our comments on xians. She's right. Many are angry or outrageous in some way."

 

I am absolutely right on this, and frankly, I was surprised at the extent of it when I went deep into forum life for awhile. Now little surprises me.

 

"In my life I've personally known literally hundreds of xians from many denominations and walks of life. I haven't just read about them but I have been friends with them and interacted with them. I've been to their homes and some of their churches. I've listened to their doctrines and all of that. It has been far above and beyond the what most, if not nearly all, xians know about apostates."

 

Presumption, presumption. I was raised by a very verbal and argumentively adept atheist, had atheistic/agnostic friends and we've talked about many issues over the years not counting extensive time on online forums. So I guess I don't slot into your neat little cubbyhole. Then, too, I am not interested in bashing atheists so much as engaging them. Likewise with pagans. I take on all comers;)

 

 

 

"I may not know each and every xian personally but my sample of xians far outweighs any xians sample of apostates. " blah. prooof-where's the proooooof?

 

"To say we're unfair is a lie. Everything I say is based on my own personal experience as a xian and my own personal experiences with xians (primarily Lutheran and Baptist). Not from the outside looking in but from the inside as one of them. "

 

It is not a lie, it is an observation... once you start responding with logical fallacy such as this you weaken all your subjective argument. Your personal experience is a small sample of the whole, and doesn't necessarily correlate to all of my sample.

 

One final note. You mention the prodigal son. We're not "prodigal," we're apostate.-mwc

Not all of you.