SilentLoner Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Very interesting article: "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" When the Anti-Choice Choose By Joyce Arthur http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Damn good article SilentLoner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Reading the article, I can just imagine where Pro-Lifers get all their "the staff didn't care about me, all they cared about was performing the abortion" stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I can only imagine the mental gymnastics one has to go through for an anti-choicer to come to the conclusion that their abortion is the only moral one. Truth is, abortion has very little to do with morality. It's a sad fact of life, and that fact is that there is always going to be a situation where going against your beliefs is what's best for all involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynus Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Sounds like Christian logic in action to me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Unfortunately this isn't just about abortions...it's about most everything. I am unique. My situation is different. I should be allowed to do ... because ... but everyone else shouldn't since their reason is not special like mine is. Rarely is any of this actually true. Rationalizing is just part of how people work. That doesn't excuse anything of course but is anyone really surprised? This isn't simply a hypocritical xian behavior but a human behavior. If the people in the story could be a little more self-aware then maybe they'd stop but you never know. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Seeing as Christians make up the majority, then it was christians who contributed to the legalization of abortions, and christians who have kept it legal. They just aren't going to say it. If anything, they would rather imply the government is a rabid pack of atheists (or secularists) influenced by the devil and making laws to bring Christian America down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknowing1 Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Typical hypocrites. If I were one of the doctors performing these procedures and I had an anti-choice person come in for one I'm not quite sure that I would perform the procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Typical hypocrites. If I were one of the doctors performing these procedures and I had an anti-choice person come in for one I'm not quite sure that I would perform the procedure. Are you pro-choice or anti-choice ... on hypocrisy, I mean? Doesn't one have a right to be a hypocrite? If the choice to have an abortion is not bothersome, why is the choice to be a hypocrite such a "sin"? -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Typical hypocrites. If I were one of the doctors performing these procedures and I had an anti-choice person come in for one I'm not quite sure that I would perform the procedure. Are you pro-choice or anti-choice ... on hypocrisy, I mean? Doesn't one have a right to be a hypocrite? If the choice to have an abortion is not bothersome, why is the choice to be a hypocrite such a "sin"? -CC in MA Actually in the article it shows that there are good legal reason not to give an abortion to someone who is "pro-life" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Are you pro-choice or anti-choice ... on hypocrisy, I mean? Doesn't one have a right to be a hypocrite? If the choice to have an abortion is not bothersome, why is the choice to be a hypocrite such a "sin"? -CC in MA You *do* realize you're not making much sense here, don't you? Perhaps the better label would be that they are guilty of a double-standard. I can't think of a better example than opposing abortion on the grounds that it is cold-blooded murder while spreading your legs for one. It is perhaps even indicative of a mental health problem, as in disassociation or delusion. I did find a very interesting Wikipedia article discussing the misuse of the term hypocrite, when we often are describing a double-standard or contradiction or perhaps fundamental attribution error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Are you pro-choice or anti-choice ... on hypocrisy, I mean? Doesn't one have a right to be a hypocrite? If the choice to have an abortion is not bothersome, why is the choice to be a hypocrite such a "sin"? -CC in MA You *do* realize you're not making much sense here, don't you? Perhaps the better label would be that they are guilty of a double-standard. I can't think of a better example than opposing abortion on the grounds that it is cold-blooded murder while spreading your legs for one. It is perhaps even indicative of a mental health problem, as in disassociation or delusion. I did find a very interesting Wikipedia article discussing the misuse of the term hypocrite, when we often are describing a double-standard or contradiction or perhaps fundamental attribution error. Actually, no, I didn't realize I was not making sense. Let me try again. We are either pro-choice or we are anti-choice on any issue at hand. For example, I am anti-choice on murder, drunk driving, littering, armed robbery, theft -- and other such things. I do not support anyone's right to choose such behavior. I am pro-choice on matters such as choice of major in college, declaring oneself an atheist, an agnostic or a theist, when/if/where to buy a home, which radio station to listen to -- and other such things. I was seeking to know if the poster who was so enraged about the hypocrisy (or double standard) of the pro-life protester seeking an abortion is pro-choice or anti-choice on the right to choose to be a hypocrite. If the poster is not pro-choice on the right to choose hypocrisy, then fine. If the poster is pro-choice on the right to choose to be a hypocrite, then isn't the choice of hypocrisy and the choice to terminate a pregnancy both matters outside of discussions of morality? How can we be enraged by the latter and not enraged about the former, if we are pro-choice on both issues? Maybe I was clearer this time? -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 I think the solution is simple, there should be a law that anyone who opposes abortion does not have the right to an abortion. Basically, make it illegal for anti-choice people, and keep it legal only for pro-choice. And if someone rallies or protests after an abortion, the clinic should have to disclose that information publicly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 I think the solution is simple, there should be a law that anyone who opposes abortion does not have the right to an abortion. Basically, make it illegal for anti-choice people, and keep it legal only for pro-choice. And if someone rallies or protests after an abortion, the clinic should have to disclose that information publicly. That sounds good, until you think about the 16 year old that was one of the examples. Was she really anti-choice/pro-life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 That sounds good, until you think about the 16 year old that was one of the examples. Was she really anti-choice/pro-life? That's true. If they're in between and can't make up their mind, it would be okay. But if they then go to an anti-choice rally afterwards, the hospital should have to inform the leaders of the rally or the media or something. (I'm just a bit pissed at double-standards, so sorry for my harsh attitude here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 That sounds good, until you think about the 16 year old that was one of the examples. Was she really anti-choice/pro-life? That's true. If they're in between and can't make up their mind, it would be okay. But if they then go to an anti-choice rally afterwards, the hospital should have to inform the leaders of the rally or the media or something. (I'm just a bit pissed at double-standards, so sorry for my harsh attitude here.) I understand your anger. That particular example of the young girl having an abortion, then returning to the protest line, is most egregious. But she is young and young people are fanatics about this one day and something else the other. Abortion will pass away, naturally, in my view. Unwanted pregnancies will in future be a thing of the past and/or artificial wombs will support the lives of unwanted fetuses as they grow to term. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 CC I'm starting to get the idea that your view of time is like this. Things were perfect for a while, then things fell apart for a while, but things will be perfect again. If true, that just strikes me as strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 CC I'm starting to get the idea that your view of time is like this. Things were perfect for a while, then things fell apart for a while, but things will be perfect again. If true, that just strikes me as strange. I don't know what I actually think about that. It seems that much progress has been made in so many ways and that we are heading toward a brighter tomorrow. Unless, of course, we blow ourselves up tonight. I dismiss altogether the possibility of perfecting humankind. We are not perfectable, by any stretch of the imagination. But progress will naturally take care of some ailments and controversies, abortion being one. The need for abortion will diminish as better means of contraception are developed. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 What is perfect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 What is perfect? Wholeness. Maybe? -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Maybe... I always wondered when people say "perfect", "imperfect", "good" or "bad" etc what they really mean, because we (all of us, even I do it) use words without ever thinking about what we really mean when we say them. Like "perfect". What is perfect to someone maybe isn't perfect for someone else. I'm not sure how the word can be defined to encompass everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Maybe... I always wondered when people say "perfect", "imperfect", "good" or "bad" etc what they really mean, because we (all of us, even I do it) use words without ever thinking about what we really mean when we say them. Like "perfect". What is perfect to someone maybe isn't perfect for someone else. I'm not sure how the word can be defined to encompass everything... Yep, that's right. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknowing1 Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Current Christian, Please explain to me where I was "enraged"? I used two words to describe my thoughts on the behavior of the people that were depicted in the article. And then I stated that I would not perform the abortion. Because of that you called me "enraged". This is the second time you have said something to me regarding a post I have made about abortion. I am beginning to think you have some type of issue with me. If so let me know what it is so that I can understand what it is and hopefully help you get over it. I don't know why I am even posting this but maybe it will help you to understand where my thought process lies and maybe help you deal with your issue with me. Anyway, here is the definition I use for hypocrite (this is from dictionary.com, it matches my Webster's Dictionary definition as well): hyp·o·crite /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hip-uh-krit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. By having an abortion a pro-lifer or anti-choice person falls into a category of a person whose actions/public statements belie stated beliefs. Protesting an abortion clinic and saying you are pro-life says you are against abortion and think it is termination of a life. Protesting an abortion clinic and saying you are anti-choice says you are against the choice to have an abortion and therefore should not be able to have one. You then have the procedure that you have been protesting against that results in a "life" being terminated and you even tell the doctor after the procedure that you feel abortion is murder or you have the procedure that you have stated publicly should not be a choice to make. You then go back to the protest line. That to me makes you a hypocrite. Why? Your action just belied your stated beliefs. But I guess that during the days between finding out you were pregnant and the moment of the actual procedure you could change your mind about your belief and you would no longer be a hypocrite. The clinic in my area requires counseling first and then a waiting period before you can actually have an abortion to make sure you won't change your mind. So that would mean at least a two week delay between the time you go in for counseling to the time they will actually perform the procedure. So from the moment you found out you were pregnant, got the appointment for the counseling, drove to the abortion clinic and got the counseling, waited the required time, drove back to the clinic, filled out the required paperwork, received some more counseling, were prepped, had the actual procedure and jumped off the table you weren't a hypocrite afterall because you no longer held that belief. But as soon as your feet hit that cold floor you then reverted back to your prior belief. You want to be a hypocrite, that is your choice but I for one do not want to be, nor would I want to be friends with one. Someone who acts one way or states they believe a certain thing but believes another to me may have issues with being truthful. I am pro-choice and I do believe that abortion should be an individuals decision. I also feel that abortion should be legal for various reasons. Whatever your decision I believe that you should be able to do whatever you want free of harassment. As for why I would not perform the abortion, I wouldn't want the possibility of a lawsuit. While I would probably win it would be a major pain to have to go to court to defend myself. In addition they could very well use the fact that I knew they protested and were anti-choice thereby saying there should be no abortions against me. The amount of money, time and headaches associated with trying to defend myself just wouldn't be worth it. Not only that if a patient or a family member behaved the way some of the pro-lifers did in my waiting room I would ask the offender to leave. If the patient was behaving in a manner that was depicted in the article they would be asked to leave and I would not perform the procedure. I would not subject my other patients, my staff nor myself to harassment. Believe me if I was "enraged" I'd be out protesting the pro-lifers and anti-choice folks which I am not. To each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Current Christian, Please explain to me where I was "enraged"? I used two words to describe my thoughts on the behavior of the people that were depicted in the article. And then I stated that I would not perform the abortion. Because of that you called me "enraged". This is the second time you have said something to me regarding a post I have made about abortion. I am beginning to think you have some type of issue with me. If so let me know what it is so that I can understand what it is and hopefully help you get over it. I don't know why I am even posting this but maybe it will help you to understand where my thought process lies and maybe help you deal with your issue with me. Anyway, here is the definition I use for hypocrite (this is from dictionary.com, it matches my Webster's Dictionary definition as well): hyp·o·crite /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hip-uh-krit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. By having an abortion a pro-lifer or anti-choice person falls into a category of a person whose actions/public statements belie stated beliefs. Protesting an abortion clinic and saying you are pro-life says you are against abortion and think it is termination of a life. Protesting an abortion clinic and saying you are anti-choice says you are against the choice to have an abortion and therefore should not be able to have one. You then have the procedure that you have been protesting against that results in a "life" being terminated and you even tell the doctor after the procedure that you feel abortion is murder or you have the procedure that you have stated publicly should not be a choice to make. You then go back to the protest line. That to me makes you a hypocrite. Why? Your action just belied your stated beliefs. But I guess that during the days between finding out you were pregnant and the moment of the actual procedure you could change your mind about your belief and you would no longer be a hypocrite. The clinic in my area requires counseling first and then a waiting period before you can actually have an abortion to make sure you won't change your mind. So that would mean at least a two week delay between the time you go in for counseling to the time they will actually perform the procedure. So from the moment you found out you were pregnant, got the appointment for the counseling, drove to the abortion clinic and got the counseling, waited the required time, drove back to the clinic, filled out the required paperwork, received some more counseling, were prepped, had the actual procedure and jumped off the table you weren't a hypocrite afterall because you no longer held that belief. But as soon as your feet hit that cold floor you then reverted back to your prior belief. You want to be a hypocrite, that is your choice but I for one do not want to be, nor would I want to be friends with one. Someone who acts one way or states they believe a certain thing but believes another to me may have issues with being truthful. I am pro-choice and I do believe that abortion should be an individuals decision. I also feel that abortion should be legal for various reasons. Whatever your decision I believe that you should be able to do whatever you want free of harassment. As for why I would not perform the abortion, I wouldn't want the possibility of a lawsuit. While I would probably win it would be a major pain to have to go to court to defend myself. In addition they could very well use the fact that I knew they protested and were anti-choice thereby saying there should be no abortions against me. The amount of money, time and headaches associated with trying to defend myself just wouldn't be worth it. Not only that if a patient or a family member behaved the way some of the pro-lifers did in my waiting room I would ask the offender to leave. If the patient was behaving in a manner that was depicted in the article they would be asked to leave and I would not perform the procedure. I would not subject my other patients, my staff nor myself to harassment. Believe me if I was "enraged" I'd be out protesting the pro-lifers and anti-choice folks which I am not. To each his own. Hi Unknowing1, I am heading to work this morning, in just a few minutes, and can't respond. I have no bone whatsoever to pick with you. I may have overstated things using the word "enraged." You may be right. Please let me get back from work and read all of this particular post and the others in this topic and get back to you. Thank you for some time to look into this. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Current Christian, Please explain to me where I was "enraged"? I used two words to describe my thoughts on the behavior of the people that were depicted in the article. And then I stated that I would not perform the abortion. Because of that you called me "enraged". This is the second time you have said something to me regarding a post I have made about abortion. I am beginning to think you have some type of issue with me. If so let me know what it is so that I can understand what it is and hopefully help you get over it. I don't know why I am even posting this but maybe it will help you to understand where my thought process lies and maybe help you deal with your issue with me. Anyway, here is the definition I use for hypocrite (this is from dictionary.com, it matches my Webster's Dictionary definition as well): hyp·o·crite /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hip-uh-krit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. By having an abortion a pro-lifer or anti-choice person falls into a category of a person whose actions/public statements belie stated beliefs. Protesting an abortion clinic and saying you are pro-life says you are against abortion and think it is termination of a life. Protesting an abortion clinic and saying you are anti-choice says you are against the choice to have an abortion and therefore should not be able to have one. You then have the procedure that you have been protesting against that results in a "life" being terminated and you even tell the doctor after the procedure that you feel abortion is murder or you have the procedure that you have stated publicly should not be a choice to make. You then go back to the protest line. That to me makes you a hypocrite. Why? Your action just belied your stated beliefs. But I guess that during the days between finding out you were pregnant and the moment of the actual procedure you could change your mind about your belief and you would no longer be a hypocrite. The clinic in my area requires counseling first and then a waiting period before you can actually have an abortion to make sure you won't change your mind. So that would mean at least a two week delay between the time you go in for counseling to the time they will actually perform the procedure. So from the moment you found out you were pregnant, got the appointment for the counseling, drove to the abortion clinic and got the counseling, waited the required time, drove back to the clinic, filled out the required paperwork, received some more counseling, were prepped, had the actual procedure and jumped off the table you weren't a hypocrite afterall because you no longer held that belief. But as soon as your feet hit that cold floor you then reverted back to your prior belief. You want to be a hypocrite, that is your choice but I for one do not want to be, nor would I want to be friends with one. Someone who acts one way or states they believe a certain thing but believes another to me may have issues with being truthful. I am pro-choice and I do believe that abortion should be an individuals decision. I also feel that abortion should be legal for various reasons. Whatever your decision I believe that you should be able to do whatever you want free of harassment. As for why I would not perform the abortion, I wouldn't want the possibility of a lawsuit. While I would probably win it would be a major pain to have to go to court to defend myself. In addition they could very well use the fact that I knew they protested and were anti-choice thereby saying there should be no abortions against me. The amount of money, time and headaches associated with trying to defend myself just wouldn't be worth it. Not only that if a patient or a family member behaved the way some of the pro-lifers did in my waiting room I would ask the offender to leave. If the patient was behaving in a manner that was depicted in the article they would be asked to leave and I would not perform the procedure. I would not subject my other patients, my staff nor myself to harassment. Believe me if I was "enraged" I'd be out protesting the pro-lifers and anti-choice folks which I am not. To each his own. I've had time just now to read all of this post and to skim those that preceded it. You are right. You were not "enraged," as I stated. That description was inaccurate and it absolutely does not fit your remarks. I'm sorry about misrepresenting your feelings. I do think, however, that one has a right to be a hypocrite, and you are right that this behavior (protesting abortion, then having an abortion, then protesting abortion) is hypocrisy. No doubt. -CC in MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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