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Goodbye Jesus

Christians: Put Up Or Shut Up!


Checkmate

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"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

-Mark 16: 17-18

 

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up."

- James 5:14-15

 

Seems like promises to me. Where is this manifested? I imagine the 'elders' are reticent to perform above because they fear they will look foolish when scripture is not validated.

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"And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

-Mark 16: 17-18

 

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up."

- James 5:14-15

 

Seems like promises to me. Where is this manifested? I imagine the 'elders' are reticent to perform above because they fear they will look foolish when scripture is not validated.

 

I suppose being an amputee is not really an illness since there have never been any recorded cures of amputations in any medical records.... perhaps all amputees are unworthy? lol

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No new toes on foot as per last examination.

 

Checkmate is right on so far... As usual!

 

Still waiting for god's Favorite Regeneration Blend to hit this foot.

 

Pics to follow if any change!

 

kL

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  • 3 weeks later...
I have to prove NOTHING! If you do not believe in Yahweh then you are of no use anyway.

 

LOL :lmao: I wish more Christians were this honest.

 

 

On a more serious note, Saint, you seem a bit racist, are you with a white supremacist group?

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  • Super Moderator

Oh goodie....more fine entertainment. Saint's posted his crap in several threads for our amusement...errr I mean... reading pleasure.

:lmao:

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I like to use the term "Racially Aware" Anyway, If you consider Yahweh to be racist and I follow his laws then you can call me racist too. I am not above my master!

 

Wow....wow....is this guy for real?

 

 

If he is my faith in humanity just dropped another few points.

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Saint88,

 

Christian Identity stinks. Bertrand L. Comparet stinks worse.

 

You racist scum.

 

Wow....wow....is this guy for real?

 

If he is my faith in humanity just dropped another few points.

Search for Kingdom Identity Ministries, Christian Identity, or any of the guys starting these organizations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Identity_Ministries

 

They all believe non-white have no souls (i.e. animals). And they believe Christianity should be only for white, and ... well, you can imagine what kind of political foundation they lean towards.

 

It's the KKK.

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They all believe non-white have no souls (i.e. animals). And they believe Christianity should be only for white, and ... well, you can imagine what kind of political foundation they lean towards.

 

It's the KKK.

 

Ugh, I'm sorry to see that such people still exist.

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I'm tired. I'm tired of all the yapping and yakking, back and forth, he said, she said, bullshit of Evangelical, Liberal and Fundamentalist Christians. I'm tired of all the baseless assertions, suppositions and mind bending rationalizations. I'm tired of arguing against YOUR ridiculous doctrines that don‘t even merit a retarded gopher’s consideration.

 

But most of all, I'm tired of all the lame Christian excuses. You promise "answers" and then proffer up "I don't know." You claim that your God can do anything, but when pressed for a demonstration you retreat behind ridiculous excuses. I'm drowning under an embarrassing Christian tsunami of "I don't know"s and “God‘s ways are not our wayâ€s.

 

So here it is, real simple: PUT UP or fucking SHUT UP!

 

Robert G. Ingersoll, in a more civil tone, once said...

 

“The church wishes us to believe. Let the church, or one of its intellectual saints, perform a miracle, and we will believe. We are told that nature has a superior. Let this superior, for one single instant, control nature, and we will admit the truth of your assertions."

..........

"We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential ‘amens.’ All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your moldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a 'this year's fact'. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years. Their reputation for 'truth and veracity' in the neighborhood where they resided is wholly unknown to us. Give us a new miracle, and substantiate it by witnesses who still have the cheerful habit of living this world. Do not send us to Jericho to hear the winding horns, nor put us in the fire with Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego. Do not compel us to navigate the sea with Captain Jonah, nor dine with Mr. Ezekiel. There is no sort of use in sending us foxhunting with Samson. We have positively lost all interest in that little speech so eloquently delivered by Balaam's inspired donkey. It is worse than useless to show us fishes with money in their mouths, and call our attention to vast multitudes stuffing themselves with five crackers and two sardines. We demand a new miracle, and we demand it now. Let the church furnish at least one, or forever hold her peace.".........."The Gods" 1872

 

I don’t argue or debate religion anymore. The rest of you can do so if you like, but I won’t be joining you. I won’t argue or discuss god/Jesus for the exact same reason I won’t argue or discuss Santa/Frosty the Snowman. Self-evident, puerile tripe needs no intelligent refutation. It’s a pointless and silly endeavor to me. Besides, humoring idiots only serves to encourage them to keep babbling. I prefer to lambaste, lampoon, laugh and walk away.

 

I’m not interested in hearing/reading your mindless “reasons†for wishful thinking (a.k.a. “Beliefâ€). Your childish insistence that “something†must have happened, because you say so and you “believe†it, will fall on deaf ears and I will call you an idiot.

 

Talk is cheap. I don’t want to hear anymore tired excuses for why your God apparently can’t or won’t perform on command today as he did so effortlessly yesterday. What happened? He run out of “Jesus Juice†or something? Used up his quota resurrecting himself and converting Paul? Does God need some Viagra™? Or is God preserving his limited resources for when the time comes to fuck us over during the dreaded Apocalypse? What fucking gives here?!?

 

So here is what you Christians can do to prove to me that I’m wrong (to shut ME up) -- show me something -- an answered prayer, an amputated limb re-grown, a mountain moving, bona fide, honest-to-fucking-God MIRACLE that no one can deny! -- or forever hold your peace, because I'm tired of your incessant delusional buzzing around my ears. 2,000-plus years of this overgrown death cult is more than enough.

 

Put up (provide verifiable evidence) or shut up (keep your retarded “beliefs†to yourself and leave the rest of us alone).

 

That’s the deal. All things considered I think I’m being more than reasonable. You Christians are the ones writing checks your butts can’t cash. After all, “Outrageous claims demand outrageous proofs.â€

 

The ball is in your court, you delusional nitwits.

 

~ Checkmate (back by popular demand)

 

You know them. They'll follow the usual drill: "His mysterious ways/Thou shalt not test the Lord/You wouldn't believe it even if you saw it" and all that crud.

 

They don't realise that many of us *do wish there was a *benevolent god* out there. But all we see is:

 

1.) there's no *proof of any *god

 

2.) the god of the Bible is far from *benevolent- why the hell will we want to worship such a creature?

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  • 1 month later...
Palace Chan, I only glanced over the first link. All this "historical evidence" assumes that the New Testament was written as a sort of on-the-spot eyewitness news report. Nothing could be further from the truth. Granted, in spots it may read like this to the uneducated, but it is not that type of a narrative. These stories were written many years after the purported events and the accounts are contradictory. Just because someone says they saw something or believe something happened is not grounds enough to accept it, especially something contrary to the laws of nature, like the purported resurrection. What we have are written accounts cooked up 30 40 or 50 years after the alleged event. How reliable can they be? How do we know that it isn't all fiction? As for how Jesus died, people can and do speculate until the cows come home exactly how it happened. None of us were there, why worry about it?

 

 

Not sure if anyone's still reading this thread, but wanted to post this just in case -- am currently reading one of the most interesting books I've ever read about Christianity -- "Gospel Truth: the new image of Jesus emerging from science and history, and why it matters."

 

Shorto documents the historical and scientific proof that Christianity is a mishmash of myth, hoax, delusion, misunderstanding and misinterpretation (much of it intentional). Great reading, and tons o' fun.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm tired. I'm tired of all the yapping and yakking, back and forth, he said, she said, bullshit of Evangelical, Liberal and Fundamentalist Christians. I'm tired of all the baseless assertions, suppositions and mind bending rationalizations. I'm tired of arguing against YOUR ridiculous doctrines that don‘t even merit a retarded gopher’s consideration.

 

But most of all, I'm tired of all the lame Christian excuses. You promise "answers" and then proffer up "I don't know." You claim that your God can do anything, but when pressed for a demonstration you retreat behind ridiculous excuses. I'm drowning under an embarrassing Christian tsunami of "I don't know"s and “God‘s ways are not our wayâ€s.

 

So here it is, real simple: PUT UP or fucking SHUT UP!

 

Robert G. Ingersoll, in a more civil tone, once said...

 

“The church wishes us to believe. Let the church, or one of its intellectual saints, perform a miracle, and we will believe. We are told that nature has a superior. Let this superior, for one single instant, control nature, and we will admit the truth of your assertions."

..........

"We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential ‘amens.’ All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your moldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a 'this year's fact'. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years. Their reputation for 'truth and veracity' in the neighborhood where they resided is wholly unknown to us. Give us a new miracle, and substantiate it by witnesses who still have the cheerful habit of living this world. Do not send us to Jericho to hear the winding horns, nor put us in the fire with Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego. Do not compel us to navigate the sea with Captain Jonah, nor dine with Mr. Ezekiel. There is no sort of use in sending us foxhunting with Samson. We have positively lost all interest in that little speech so eloquently delivered by Balaam's inspired donkey. It is worse than useless to show us fishes with money in their mouths, and call our attention to vast multitudes stuffing themselves with five crackers and two sardines. We demand a new miracle, and we demand it now. Let the church furnish at least one, or forever hold her peace.".........."The Gods" 1872

 

I don’t argue or debate religion anymore. The rest of you can do so if you like, but I won’t be joining you. I won’t argue or discuss god/Jesus for the exact same reason I won’t argue or discuss Santa/Frosty the Snowman. Self-evident, puerile tripe needs no intelligent refutation. It’s a pointless and silly endeavor to me. Besides, humoring idiots only serves to encourage them to keep babbling. I prefer to lambaste, lampoon, laugh and walk away.

 

I’m not interested in hearing/reading your mindless “reasons†for wishful thinking (a.k.a. “Beliefâ€). Your childish insistence that “something†must have happened, because you say so and you “believe†it, will fall on deaf ears and I will call you an idiot.

 

Talk is cheap. I don’t want to hear anymore tired excuses for why your God apparently can’t or won’t perform on command today as he did so effortlessly yesterday. What happened? He run out of “Jesus Juice†or something? Used up his quota resurrecting himself and converting Paul? Does God need some Viagra™? Or is God preserving his limited resources for when the time comes to fuck us over during the dreaded Apocalypse? What fucking gives here?!?

 

So here is what you Christians can do to prove to me that I’m wrong (to shut ME up) -- show me something -- an answered prayer, an amputated limb re-grown, a mountain moving, bona fide, honest-to-fucking-God MIRACLE that no one can deny! -- or forever hold your peace, because I'm tired of your incessant delusional buzzing around my ears. 2,000-plus years of this overgrown death cult is more than enough.

 

Put up (provide verifiable evidence) or shut up (keep your retarded “beliefs†to yourself and leave the rest of us alone).

 

That’s the deal. All things considered I think I’m being more than reasonable. You Christians are the ones writing checks your butts can’t cash. After all, “Outrageous claims demand outrageous proofs.â€

 

The ball is in your court, you delusional nitwits.

 

~ Checkmate (back by popular demand)

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Regarding evidence for God's existence or activity - especially what would be considered as 'miraculous' events - there's no doubt that miracles that supercede the laws of physics are no longer occurring. But that simple fact would only be your self-imposed limitation on how God works, and it would certainly not be evidence that God is no longer active. When He left planet Earth, Jesus commanded His disciples to take the Gospel of forgiveness of sins in HIs name "TO THE REMOTEST PART OF THE EARTH" and His promise to them was "I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE."

 

So we ask ourselves - has this truly taken place? Have the followers of Jesus Christ fulfilled this command? The answer is an obvious "YES" There is almost no place on this globe where you cannot find a church in close proximity or readily accessible to almost any local populace. There are Christians ministering in remote jungles of teh Amazon basin and the mountains and valleys of Papua New Guinea, they are in the far reaches of the north where the Inuit peoples live, they are in Muslim and Communist lands where churches are outlawed and Christians are persecuted. And no amount of persecution of Evangelical Christianity by other religions (Islam, Hindu, paganism, etc) or governments (Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, communism, etc), has stopped the steady progression of the Gospel's presence throughout the Earth.

 

And wherever Christianity has spread, it has delivered a beneficial effect to that culture - as witnessed by the tribal wars which have significantly decreased in South America and Indonesia. I would encourage you to read the recent articel in The Times by Matthew Parris on Dec 27, 2008 - this atheist has seen that the only hope for Africa is Christian evangelism. He was born in modern-day Malawi, has traveled throughout Africa for many years - and has seen that only Christianity has made a lasting beneficial impact - NOT secular programs or NGOs.

 

Spurgeon was onced challenged by an atheist - and his reply was that he would consider the merits of atheism - as soon as this man could show Spurgeon the hospitals, orphanages, schools, soup kitchens, etc that atheists had founded. The answer was easy - these did not - and even today - do not exist. Evangelical Christianity has truly had the effect of "salt & light" wherever it goes. And could Christians accomplish this themselves? Look at the history of Evangelical Christianity - almost always considered a religion of the 'lower classes.' AND YET these lower class religious people have successfully taken the Gospel all around the world. As Gamaliel sadi to the Jewish Sanhedrin in Book of Acts, "Leave these men alone - or you will be found fighting against God."

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So a guy i know who says he is considering Christianity recently told me "There is enough historical evidence to suggest that it is highly likely that the resurrection took place" - Do you guys know what

this is about ? He gave me this link, for example:

 

http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/JC/dieandlive.htm

 

What do you think ? (Other than one word answers like "BS" ) ?

 

Or this debate:

 

http://www.tkc.edu/advancement/media/newsrelease.asp?id=55

 

thoughts ?

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Palace Chan - the evidence for Orthodox Christianity is solid. The Gospels and Book of Acts were certainly written from eye witness accounts - as is evident when you read them. Though the release of the final written books was anywhere from 20 - 60 years later, there were still many people alive who lived through those days of Jesus Christ and His Apostles. So any attempt by fisherman from Galilee to pass off bogus history would have been readily disputed. Rather, Jewish historians like Josephus and Eusebius confirmed the Biblical writers, and the amazing spread of the Gospel would have been easily diffused by simply proving their accounts to be false.

 

This examination of historical fact is the reason why so many other writings were rejected by the Early Church from being placed in the Bible. Many speak of "Lost Books of the Bible" - but there is no such thing! These books were read, examined, and rejected by the Early Church becasue they taught false doctrine, or contained bogus events, or had obvious geographical or historical errors - many of the books just had weird stories with no factual basis. SO they're not lost books - they're rejected books, and for good reason.

 

But evidence for the resurrection goes beyong the solid Biblical record, also being based on facts known about Roman rule of its provinces, how the Roman legions operated in executions (the Jews stoned, while the Romans crucified), how Roman soldiers were put to death if they slept on their watch (can you imagine the Roman Empire NOT punishing severly any soldier sleeping on the job - is that the way to rule the world?), etc. History is solidly behind the historicity of the Bible.

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And wherever Christianity has spread, it has delivered a beneficial effect to that culture...
Speaking on behalf of My Scandinavian and Germanic forebears, I say that this claim is utter nonsense. Christianity was forced upon My ancestors via warfare, torture, murder and kidnapping, and virtually destroyed our infrastructure and way of life.

 

That'll be $12,459.73 USD in weregild, pleaseandthankyou.

 

(Oh, and could a mod please move this thread to the Lion's Den so that we can properly eviscerate it?)

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Oh my Heavenly Father, please forgive rayskidude for his utter ignorance and statements based on the teachings of those who don't want anyone to know the truth.

 

Please forgive, him/her for making a complete ass of him/her self. If he only knew how utterly mean, cruel, and intolerant You are, he would truly understand Your Glory! He/She must also be forgiven for not knowing any actual history or how much harm Your Wonderfulness has done to humans over the course of this history. Your wisdom is like no other, oh, Heavenly Father of destruction and death. Oh, and thank you so much for allowing your son to be murdered in front of everyone, so that we might all be saved, umm, from something that doesn't exist. Oh, but I'm sorry, Dear Lord. You are so ever wonderful and loving.

 

Your everlasting disciple in the death you wish on billions of humans,

Patrick

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This examination of historical fact is the reason why so many other writings were rejected by the Early Church from being placed in the Bible. Many speak of "Lost Books of the Bible" - but there is no such thing! These books were read, examined, and rejected by the Early Church becasue they taught false doctrine, or contained bogus events, or had obvious geographical or historical errors - many of the books just had weird stories with no factual basis. SO they're not lost books - they're rejected books, and for good reason.

 

LOL :lmao: As if among the ones they did pick were not "weird stories with no factual basis". I see you haven't cracked the good book in awhile Ray.

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And wherever Christianity has spread, it has delivered a beneficial effect to that culture...
Speaking on behalf of My Scandinavian and Germanic forebears, I say that this claim is utter nonsense. Christianity was forced upon My ancestors via warfare, torture, murder and kidnapping, and virtually destroyed our infrastructure and way of life.

 

That'll be $12,459.73 USD in weregild, pleaseandthankyou.

 

(Oh, and could a mod please move this thread to the Lion's Den so that we can properly eviscerate it?)

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And wherever Christianity has spread, it has delivered a beneficial effect to that culture...
Speaking on behalf of My Scandinavian and Germanic forebears, I say that this claim is utter nonsense. Christianity was forced upon My ancestors via warfare, torture, murder and kidnapping, and virtually destroyed our infrastructure and way of life.

 

That'll be $12,459.73 USD in weregild, pleaseandthankyou.

 

(Oh, and could a mod please move this thread to the Lion's Den so that we can properly eviscerate it?)

 

I suggest that you read some reliable history books, and you'll find the Germanic peoples were won over largely by the actions of Irish monks - one of whom cut down a huge tree which some German tribe worshipped. And the Scandanavians invaded northern Europe on several occasions, destroyng many churches and documents - and they captured many northern Europeans as slaves. During their captivity/slavery, these Christian slaves preached Christianity to the Norsemen - who slowly, over time, adopted Christianity as their religion - and led to them becoming a peaceful people. Facts are facts.

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Spurgeon was onced challenged by an atheist - and his reply was that he would consider the merits of atheism - as soon as this man could show Spurgeon the hospitals, orphanages, schools, soup kitchens, etc that atheists had founded. The answer was easy - these did not - and even today - do not exist. Evangelical Christianity has truly had the effect of "salt & light" wherever it goes.

 

Christian apologists often insist that their religion promotes extraordinary generosity and altruism. As proof, they point to Christian-sponsored hospitals, clinics, schools, colleges, homeless shelters, halfway houses, and other educational and charitable organizations. "And where are the atheist hospitals?" they tauntingly ask. "We don't see any atheist programs to help the poor and needy," they jeer.

 

But these claims are far weaker than they may appear. In Muslim countries, for example, there are Muslim schools and charities. In countries dominated by Buddhists we see Buddhist institutions. Even in Cuba, there are schools, hospitals, and public aid organizations, a fact that is frequently pointed to by apologists for Castro. So why should it be thought unusual that, where Christians are to be found in great numbers, there also are to be found Christian-sponsored charitable organizations?

 

Then there is the history of Christianity in the West. As recently as a few hundred years ago, it was dangerous, if not fatal, to so much as openly doubt Christian theological doctrines. That was the practical form that "Christian love" and "Christian charity" took for the overwhelming part of its history. Its ferocity was only moderated by the innovative principle of state-church separation, a principle still denied and denounced by the most energetic of Christian zealots. How, then, can special merit be accorded to Christianity? What is so singularly virtuous about doing what others are forcibly prevented from doing? And how honest and principled is it, given these circumstances, for Christians to claim exceptional virtue for themselves while disparaging their historical victims?

 

Even today, unbelievers are relentlessly reviled by many Christian leaders. Consider the following recent statements by U.S. leaders:

 

* "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." [President George Bush]

 

* "The fact that we have freedom of religion doesn't mean we need to try to have freedom from religion." [President William Jefferson Clinton]

 

* "Radicals and atheists are destroying families." [Hillary Rodham-Clinton]

 

Given the context of Christians' past and current treatment of those with contrary religious opinions, it is outrageous for anyone to point to Christian educational and charitable organizations as "proof" that Christianity excels at promoting compassion and humanitarianism. Those who make such fraudulent claims are like those who said, a century ago and more, that the absence of blacks and women in political office or other positions of responsibility "proved" that they lacked the character and intellect to vote or pursue professional careers. Then, as now, faith-blinded Christian apologists who are unwilling or unable to think excel in circular reasoning and question-begging, not in generosity or human feeling.

 

If Christianity were so spectacularly marked by the urge to give to others without asking anything in return, Christian institutions would have done far more than they have. As it is, almost all religious hospitals, clinics, schools, and colleges charge and collect fees that are the same as, or very little different than, similar non-religious organizations. Those associated with religious groups may receive modest or token subsidies, either in the form of cash from generous believers (and unbelievers!) or in the form of free labor provided by an order of monks, nuns, priests, and other volunteers. But the secular organizations engaged in the same activities manage not only to survive without such help but pay taxes to the state and dividends to their shareholders as well. A reasonable person would conclude that the religiously affiliated schools and hospitals, far from being praiseworthy examples of altruism, are, in fact, inefficient and wasteful of money and resources.

 

Of course, shelters for the homeless and battered women, food banks, soup kitchens, and the like do not charge fees. They survive, almost without exception, on a variety of grants. Most often, these are government grants. But this is no less true of organizations affiliated with religious groups as with those that are not. Catholic Charities, for example, gets the majority of its funding from taxpayers. Charitable organizations also rely on the United Way and other funding sources that draw on society generally rather than on adherents of any specific religion. Even the bell-ringing Salvation Army "Santas" rely on the ordinary generosity of people generally, and not just on that of theologically correct Christians. Meanwhile, just as in the case of schools and hospitals, these religious-affiliated charitable organizations enjoy special advantages. Virtually all of them own land and other untaxed properties. In many cases, they enjoy streams of income from these assets as well as other unrelated activities, all of which are also untaxed. This represents a large subsidy from Christians and non-Christians alike, even for those religious organizations that do not receive outright grant monies from the taxpayers.

 

It is arguable whether such subsidies are a good value for the benefits received, even if they were not unconstitutional violations of state-church separation. But they are subsidies nonetheless. It is an abuse of the facts, of reason, and of the spirit in which these subsidies are given for anyone to claim that the success of the recipient organizations demonstrate the superiority of the religions with which they are affiliated. More importantly, it illustrates the wisdom of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which was intended to prevent this diversion of public funds to the support of religious proselytization.

 

This brings us to the most disturbing feature of religious "charities." For they are not motivated primarily by a compassionate desire to alleviate human suffering or the generous inclination to advance the cause of human happiness. This was well shown by many of the pronouncements of one of the most celebrated of Christian charitable leaders, the late, but still revered "Mother Theresa," who said: "I think it is very good when people suffer. To me, that is like the kiss of Jesus...." The same fundamental indifference both to human suffering and happiness is at the root of Christian groups' opposition not only to abortion but also to birth control and assisted reproductive technologies. Nowhere is this better shown than when religious charities are forced to choose between humanitarianism and their own theological teachings. Holy spirits beat flesh and blood human beings every time.

 

Thus the chief motivation for Christian "charity" is not love of humanity at all. It is love of Christian dogmas and doctrines. For Christian teachings do not hold that good works are good in themselves. Rather, good works merely serve to show the inward theological correctness that Christians believe is necessary to win entry into heaven and escape damnation. Good works are merely the "signs and wonders" that prove Christianity's divine authority. Most of all, good works are the bait to lure potential converts and the cost of being "saved." All of which demonstrates not that the Christian religion is morally superior, but that it is morally bankrupt.

 

Meanwhile, it turns out that there are secular schools, hospitals, clinics, homeless shelters, and other charities that do without Christian theology and Christian "morals." In fact, there are two varieties of them. There are those sponsored by various government agencies. And there are the previously mentioned private organizations, both non-profit and for-profit. Both public and private secular institutions have been far more successful at alleviating human suffering and promoting human happiness than any religion has ever been.

 

It is true, of course, that the funds extracted from taxpayers to pay for many of these secular programs are collected under threat of civil and criminal law. For this reason, it is often said that no moral credit ought to be imputed for the work they do. Yet religious organizations also depend on monies collected through taxation. Nor do they ever tire in seeking a greater share of it. It cannot be more praiseworthy for Christian charitable groups to spend these funds than for the government or a private secular organization to spend them. In fact, the opposite is the case. For the charitable Christian groups' interest is primarily in advancing the Christian religion with humanitarianism a distant secondary goal. In addition, however unworthy the tool of taxation may be, traditional Christian methods of collecting money, property, and treasure are far worse. The power of the state, after all, is obviously limited. But Christians claim that those who do not cooperate with them will suffer eternal torture in hellfire.

 

Not long ago, Christians enthusiastically delivered those who failed to cooperate to earthly flames well in advance of the alleged hellfire. But this is not what most of us today think of as generosity, charity, and loving-kindness.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/charity.htm

 

Consider yourself spanked.

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I suggest that you read some reliable history books...

 

You, Mr. "I-believe-in-people-coming-back-from-the-dead", are not in any position to lecture us on "reliable."

 

"And the Scandanavians invaded northern Europe on several occasions, destroying many churches and documents - and they captured many northern Europeans as slaves."

 

In retaliation for massacres committed by such people as Charlemagne.

 

We *were* peaceful people until you invaded our hearths, burned our gothi and seiðkonur alive in their own homes, and f*cking kidnapped relatives of Icelandic citizens to force Iceland to become officially Christian.

 

It's payback time. (adds another 10% to Ray's weregild tab)

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Consider yourself spanked.

 

No reason to consider myself spanked.

 

Be considerate of bandwidth usage. There's no call to quote the entire post when replying with a single sentence. --Woodsmoke

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Spurgeon was onced challenged by an atheist - and his reply was that he would consider the merits of atheism - as soon as this man could show Spurgeon the hospitals, orphanages, schools, soup kitchens, etc that atheists had founded. The answer was easy - these did not - and even today - do not exist. Evangelical Christianity has truly had the effect of "salt & light" wherever it goes.

 

Christian apologists often insist that their religion promotes extraordinary generosity and altruism. As proof, they point to Christian-sponsored hospitals, clinics, schools, colleges, homeless shelters, halfway houses, and other educational and charitable organizations. "And where are the atheist hospitals?" they tauntingly ask. "We don't see any atheist programs to help the poor and needy," they jeer.

 

But these claims are far weaker than they may appear. In Muslim countries, for example, there are Muslim schools and charities. In countries dominated by Buddhists we see Buddhist institutions. Even in Cuba, there are schools, hospitals, and public aid organizations, a fact that is frequently pointed to by apologists for Castro. So why should it be thought unusual that, where Christians are to be found in great numbers, there also are to be found Christian-sponsored charitable organizations?

 

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Why would you place your any confidence in what you've stated? You don't understand either Christianity or much of history.

 

Within Biblical Christianity, salvation is a gift from God based on the Person & work of Jesus Christ, who is Himself God Incarnate. NO amount of good works can procure salvation - we receive salvation by God's grace through Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior. Therefore, any good works we do are conducted as obedience to God's command to love our neighbors. We don't merit any portion of our salvation, but rather we act from gratitude - and seek to be merciful to others.

 

But also, any thought that public & secular institutions have accomplished more than Christian charities "might" only be true if you're limited to very recent history in Western Europe and North America. Throughout the past 1500 years and all over Planet Earth, Christian charity has reached millions of people - from the care given during the Black Plague, to the tons of aid and care given in Indonesia after the tsunami - even after they were forced to remove Christian symbols from the packages (like the Red Cross), to the multiplied thousands helped in southern Sudan by Christian groups. In fact, it was Christian groups that continually stressed to the US gov't about the need to address the genocide perpetrated by the northern Arabs against the southern Sudanese. Treating and preventing AIDs in sub-Saharan Africa is supported by huge funds given voluntarily by Christians.

 

Many other examples could be listed, but suffice to say that Christians have alleviated much death and destruction. And also - many orphanages and children in poor areas have been and continue to be supported by Christians by World Vision and similar organizations. Studies have shown that The Salvation Army accomplishes three times as much as a US gov't program - because the Salvation Army people serve as doing a ministry for God & others - and they volunteer their time. Gov't bureaucrats serve primarily to earn a paycheck that is derived from taxes extracted involuntarily from many citizens. Thus the difference is what is accomplished.

 

And the thought that the First Amendment was intended to prevent public funding of religion could not be further from the truth. The US Colonies were gaining freedom from England , where Catholicism and The Church of England alternatively gained rule and persecuted one another. Even in the Colonies, some were established as Catholic (Maryland) or Protestant (Conneticut), with persecution of other sects. So our Founders determined that the US gov't would not establish any church denomination as the State Religion. All US citizens were free to practice their faith throughout the entire country - that was the reason for the Establishment Clause.

 

So - I suggest that you conduct more research on the nature of Christianity and true charity; and on the history of charitable work - both ancient and current - to get a claer picture of what is actually happening.

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Rayskidude,

 

If you have so much confidence in your own salvation, then why are you here? I guarantee you that many of the users here are just as intelligent and as educated and experienced as you are. They understand history, they understand Christianity, they understand many different areas of knowledge to which humans have contributed. There is plenty of evidence that I acknowledge that Christianity has been edified all throughout the history of Western civilization, from the founding of the American republic to the establishment of the monarchial powers in certain European countries. Yet, I know much of the history of Christianity and it hasn't been good much like the history of atheistic regimes have been. The history of charitable giving may be dominated by Christianity, but that doesn't mean secularists have been charitable as well. Christianity is the dominant cultural force in Western Civilization, which is why so many "good" cultural things have been attributed to it. If Buddhism had won out, we would be talking about Buddhism here instead.

 

Point is, my basis for Christianity has been dismantled and no matter how many apologetic arguments you forth, there is likely no way that you will take me or any other ex-Christian back. No internet apologist has been successful at winning me back to the fold, it was a local Catholic priest who was successful at doing it for only a short time. I would suggest you leave because you are just a biting gnat that wants to be slapped around. I am guessing that our collective existence is a threat to your faith, which is why you invade our place of peace at will. I haven't gone to your Christian chat boards and left mental dung heaps of atheistic propaganda that could be "easily refuted" by you or anybody else.

 

How about we call a stalemate from here out?

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Within Biblical Christianity, salvation is a gift from God based on the Person & work of Jesus Christ, who is Himself God Incarnate. NO amount of good works can procure salvation - we receive salvation by God's grace through Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior. Therefore, any good works we do are conducted as obedience to God's command to love our neighbors. We don't merit any portion of our salvation, but rather we act from gratitude - and seek to be merciful to others.

 

We don't care to be objects of your "gratitude". So what if Christians have accomplished good in the world, there are always strings attached. At a minimum the poor must listen to preaching in order to get fed. If a few unselfish good deeds are done, that does not in any way prove the truth of Christianity. The good deeds are outweighed by events like the Crusades, the wars in Europe, the tortures and burnings at the stake of those who disagree with Christians. If Christians had the power of the State, they would do it again.

 

Please go post your sermons elsewhere, we are all stocked up on crazy.

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