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Goodbye Jesus

What Does It Mean To Be Carnally Minded?


Antlerman

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You see the idea of a soul is a very old one, and it dates back to a time when we didn't understand anything about the brain. Now that science has uncovered that knowledge, we see that the soul model for explaining how individual people are different from one another has been superseded by one that explains all the known information in a much better way.

And now the word soul, as the word spirit, is a poetic word of romantic notions. They are no longer explanations for the "how" of things.

 

What the whole issue is, and I say this to Kratos as well, is that of languages. In the past religion provided the language of myth to speak to both human hopes and aspirations, and to explain the natural world. The two became tied together. Now science has proved to be a vastly more powerful tool of explanation and it has replaced religion as the language of the natural world.

 

Religion now is left with the difficulty of taking the language of myth that was tied into the natural world, and finding its power in human lives without running into scientific language. That’s the whole struggle we see happening. Likewise, science doesn't address the emotional perceptions that mythology does and cannot since it is simply a tool of discovery and not philosophy. Yet people are turning to it for answers to everything, since it has done so superbly at finding better answers about the natural world than religion could do.

 

So what you have essentially is displaced words, hoping to find a new identity and use. Spirit and soul are neither literally true, nor literally false. It depends how tehy'fe being used, literally or poetically.

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Likewise, science doesn't address the emotional perceptions that mythology does and cannot since it is simply a tool of discovery and not philosophy.

 

On the contrary - psychology is the study of the human "soul" (to use the word according to your definition). It is in its infancy, to be sure, but it provides us with many tools for understanding our emotions and relationships with others, and as more advances are made in this field we will be better equipped not only to understand our minds and emotions but also to treat problems that occur within them.

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Let me share another pertanent verse concerning soul and spirit.

 

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

In verse 14 above, the word "natural man" is the Greek psuchikos which means the man of the soul or soul man (not in the Blues Bros. sense).

Close. The word "psuchikos" would be "natural" and "anthropos" would be "man" (as in human). Two words. So "psuchikos anthropos" would be "natural man." The gist of the word is we are what we are. Just like a cat is a cat and a dog is a dog. Humans are humans. Apparently Paul is bothered by this idea since he's obviously advocating a "higher" nature. A more "evolved" human if you will. He then offers his ideas on how this "better" human can come about at the end of verse 14. You skip it but that version of "spiritually" (pneumatikÅs) has to do with the aid of an outside influence such as the holy ghost (in a hidden or mystical sense). For Paul this lands right in the realm of his mystery religion, tongues and prophecy.

 

There are also three Greek words for the English "life" that bring light here. There is 'bios' where we get biology which is physical life. There is psuche where we bet psychology which is soulical life, and there is zoe which refers to spiritual life. Like a pneumatic tool, spirit life is God-breathed or air driven. It takes the impartation of God to move the spirit of man. The other two are in man independent of God. When Adam fell, he disconnected the pneumatic air line from God to man. Jesus made it possible for man to reconnect to God so His spirit could again move with zoe life.

Zoe is interesting since that usually only pops up in gnostic circles. Zoe is paired up with the logos and gives "birth" to the church and whatnot. Whatever...

 

Anyhow, it's odd how you describe old zoe because I got this: "life (akin to ἄω, ἄημι (aÅ, aÄ“mi) to breathe the breath of life) the perfect and abiding antithesis to θάνατος (thanatos 2288) (death)." Now thanatos is nifty since that is just what is written there...death. Being dead. Pushing up daisies. The perfect antithesis is being alive (pretty much what I assume those of us reading this right now are busy doing). So if "Adam" removed this "air line" I would think we'd all be pushing up daisies. This is a very literal term used to describe the state of being alive or dead in the physical sense according to what I can see. There's no connotation like you describe at all. (I'm wondering if that gnostic twinge in my gut wasn't telling me something after all?)

 

If a person has not been born again by reconnecting to God, in addition to a physical body, they are psuchikos or a soulical man. Thus, there is no internal battles because they alone are the source of their own life and understanding.

If I were "natural man" then "I yam what I yam" and that's enough. God is what he is. My cat is what he is. All things are what they are. But humans! Humans aren't quite enough. We're the ONLY ones that have something amiss in the ENTIRE creation. Think about it. Something is so wrong with that line of thinking it boggles the mind. Be happy with what we are and you will realize that all the "connections" are already in place. We're already there. That's why the "natural man" has no internal battles. He's satisfied. He understands and accepts his place in the universe.

 

However, once a man is reconnected to God, besides their physical body, they are both psuchikos and pneumatikos. The are both a soulical man and a spiritual man. Growing up in God is fulfilling the command in Romans 9 that the elder must serve the younger. My soul man is 52 years old because he has always been a part of me, but my spirit man is only 24 years olds since I was saved at 28 years old. God used Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacog and Esau to show by type and shadow that God will always favor the second born man of the spirit over the first born man of the soul. When I am in harmony with myself and God, my spirit rules over my soul which rules over my body. But, as in a lost man, if the man of the soul (psuchikos) is ruling, you cannot receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and not soulically reasoned out.

And you just jumped the tracks. We were connected to god but then we were disconnected but not for anything we did but because of something someone else did but we can reconnect to god but not through the actions of someone else but only through our own actions. Listen to yourself. Should I type this again?

 

Adam and Eve do bad thing = mandatory disconnect for everyone.

Jesus does good thing = optional reconnect on case by case basis (per request pending review).

 

Where's the logic in that? Shouldn't the reconnect be mandatory too? If not, then shouldn't the disconnect have been optional? The whole thing makes no sense and your "well your carnal mind can't grep the whole thing" doesn't wash. You don't know why it doesn't make sense and you can't put your lack of understanding into words I'll understand. You use special jargon to try to dress this all up to try to make it sound far more impressive than it is but in the end it's just a lot of the same old thing. You don't want to say "sinner?" You want to use this alien term "soulically?" Fine. But once you ultimately define the terms and get back to the rhetoric all you end up saying is "Sinners don't understand the gospel and won't until they accept jesus as their savior and receive the holy ghost so that its made clear." Oddly enough you don't seem to think that's what you're saying. The only "twist" you have is you're doing your best to remove the evil things your god does, and will do, from the bible to make it more palatable (again, I have that gnostic feeling).

 

mwc

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Likewise, science doesn't address the emotional perceptions that mythology does and cannot since it is simply a tool of discovery and not philosophy.

 

On the contrary - psychology is the study of the human "soul" (to use the word according to your definition). It is in its infancy, to be sure, but it provides us with many tools for understanding our emotions and relationships with others, and as more advances are made in this field we will be better equipped not only to understand our minds and emotions but also to treat problems that occur within them.

Yes of course, understanding, but not experiencing.

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AM,

 

I do not mean to dismiss anyone or appear superior at all. All of us were soul and body only before being saved and all can again be spirit, soul, and body if they want to. The many creative and non-physical things that man has produced through art and music and literature are certainly not anything to take lightly or to distain. They are just not the work of the spirit or of God according to Bible semantics. That is my only point.

 

Kratos

Then I would argue there is nothing that is the work of the spirit or of God anywhere in any man. Either man's spirit is all there is, or God's spirit flows through all men. In either case there is no difference between those who are Christian who produce fruits of the spirit, and non-Christians who likewise produce fruits of the spirit. The only thing I would see in the world of humans is those who care to be more than simply hand to mouth existence, to ones who see and respond to existence beyond just the mundane.

 

Would you argue that only Christians are currently able to be spiritual, and others who are not are incapable of being spiritual until becoming Christian?

 

Can you point to anything a Christian has that no other faith or philosophy can offer in the human experience?

 

I can only speak for myself. Before I was born again, I could not hear the voice of God or understand the spiritual meaning behind the Bible. However, once I was, I could. And before we accuse me of being brainwashed by the clergy into thinking these things happened, let me reiterate my experience. I was raised Catholic and grew up believing that the Bible could only be understood by the ordained priesthood and that if I tried to read it on my own, I would go insane. Once I ceased to believe and rejected both Christianity and God, I delved for answers in philosophy and the hard sciences. I, also, searched in other religions. I graduated from college with a Chenistry major and a Math minor. I was surprised when preparing for graduation, that I was told I could take one more course as a senoir and have a second minor in comparative religion. I had taken Hinduism and Zen and even a secular course called "The Bible as literature and poetry" as electives because I was searching for truth.

 

Anyway, I never saw anything in the Bible, but what was on the surface. I saw no hidden spiritual meanings and heard no divine voices. Yet, the night I was born again when the Lord visited me, I got up off the floor and opened an old family Bible I had inherited and it was a completely open book to me. I few hours earlier, nothing. But now, I spent the whole rest of the night and half the next day reading with comprehension what I never could understand before.

 

I only later went to a Christian church for the first time and added language and understanding to what had happened to me. I learned that my spirit had been reborn or reconnected to God and I heard His voice and could understand His Word. This had nothing to do with my soul or my carnal mind both of which had tried to do the same thing in college in Bible class.

 

Kratos

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Kratos, do you lack basic comprehension skills?

 

Antlerman asked:

Can you point to anything a Christian has that no other faith or philosophy can offer in the human experience?

 

Your experience as recounted hardly meets that criterion.

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Sound like parietal epilepsy to me, God whore...

 

Now, why are you here? What do you hope to achieve?

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Kratos, do you lack basic comprehension skills?

 

Antlerman asked:

Can you point to anything a Christian has that no other faith or philosophy can offer in the human experience?

 

Your experience as recounted hardly meets that criterion.

 

Well, he has to sell the shit like it's gold, otherwise he's out of a job... although bussing tables or stacking shelves would be a less harmful way of earning sheckels, but then, god bothering is an indoor job with no heavy lifting... you just have to be aboe to fake sincerity when people bring their shit to you... and sell the idea that God weeps with them...

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Now, why are you here? What do you hope to achieve?

Shouldn't this be...

 

Who are you? What do you want?

 

:scratch:

 

mwc

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AM,

 

I do not mean to dismiss anyone or appear superior at all. All of us were soul and body only before being saved and all can again be spirit, soul, and body if they want to. The many creative and non-physical things that man has produced through art and music and literature are certainly not anything to take lightly or to distain. They are just not the work of the spirit or of God according to Bible semantics. That is my only point.

 

Kratos

Then I would argue there is nothing that is the work of the spirit or of God anywhere in any man. Either man's spirit is all there is, or God's spirit flows through all men. In either case there is no difference between those who are Christian who produce fruits of the spirit, and non-Christians who likewise produce fruits of the spirit. The only thing I would see in the world of humans is those who care to be more than simply hand to mouth existence, to ones who see and respond to existence beyond just the mundane.

 

Would you argue that only Christians are currently able to be spiritual, and others who are not are incapable of being spiritual until becoming Christian?

 

Can you point to anything a Christian has that no other faith or philosophy can offer in the human experience?

 

I can only speak for myself. Before I was born again, I could not hear the voice of God or understand the spiritual meaning behind the Bible. However, once I was, I could. And before we accuse me of being brainwashed by the clergy into thinking these things happened, let me reiterate my experience. I was raised Catholic and grew up believing that the Bible could only be understood by the ordained priesthood and that if I tried to read it on my own, I would go insane. Once I ceased to believe and rejected both Christianity and God, I delved for answers in philosophy and the hard sciences. I, also, searched in other religions. I graduated from college with a Chenistry major and a Math minor. I was surprised when preparing for graduation, that I was told I could take one more course as a senoir and have a second minor in comparative religion. I had taken Hinduism and Zen and even a secular course called "The Bible as literature and poetry" as electives because I was searching for truth.

 

Anyway, I never saw anything in the Bible, but what was on the surface. I saw no hidden spiritual meanings and heard no divine voices. Yet, the night I was born again when the Lord visited me, I got up off the floor and opened an old family Bible I had inherited and it was a completely open book to me. I few hours earlier, nothing. But now, I spent the whole rest of the night and half the next day reading with comprehension what I never could understand before.

 

I only later went to a Christian church for the first time and added language and understanding to what had happened to me. I learned that my spirit had been reborn or reconnected to God and I heard His voice and could understand His Word. This had nothing to do with my soul or my carnal mind both of which had tried to do the same thing in college in Bible class.

 

Kratos

Very well. But nothing you described seems beyond any other human existential awakening. Your heightened perceptions and new insights are not uncommon in the human experience, and do not indicate any uniqueness to the object of this awakening. The common factor is human beings, not the religious contexts.

 

There can be many born-again experiences in a person’s life, and it can be to any religion, or any philosophy. It's about the person and their experiences and what usually follows is a renewed sense of purpose and a new clarity of vision and awareness. Again, this is a common human experience, and I see nothing that makes Christianity the necessary component for these spiritual awakenings.

 

I need to ask you this question directly:

 

*Do you believe I am not a spiritual person because I am not a Christian?*

 

I need to warn you, your answer will determine the hand you receive in response, and hopefully I will see something that merits my respect. If not, hopefully you will take what is said to heart and grow spiritually from it.

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Now, why are you here? What do you hope to achieve?

Shouldn't this be...

 

Who are you? What do you want?

 

:scratch:

 

mwc

 

Thus Harley's variant of Godwin's law is fulfilled... ;)

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I was raised Catholic and grew up believing that the Bible could only be understood by the ordained priesthood and that if I tried to read it on my own, I would go insane. Once I ceased to believe and rejected both Christianity and God, I delved for answers in philosophy and the hard sciences. I, also, searched in other religions. I graduated from college with a Chenistry major and a Math minor. I was surprised when preparing for graduation, that I was told I could take one more course as a senoir and have a second minor in comparative religion. I had taken Hinduism and Zen and even a secular course called "The Bible as literature and poetry" as electives because I was searching for truth.

 

Anyway, I never saw anything in the Bible, but what was on the surface. I saw no hidden spiritual meanings and heard no divine voices. Yet, the night I was born again when the Lord visited me, I got up off the floor and opened an old family Bible I had inherited and it was a completely open book to me. I few hours earlier, nothing. But now, I spent the whole rest of the night and half the next day reading with comprehension what I never could understand before.

 

I only later went to a Christian church for the first time and added language and understanding to what had happened to me.

And now you make perfect sense to me.

 

Are you familiar with med students who become ill with the diseases they study? It's quite common.

 

Are you familiar with the theology students who find the connections between the various world religions and then have the little light in their brain light up? Only they don't follow through and figure out if those connections are justified like a good academic but instead assert they're right that they possess a "hidden" knowledge? If you're not familiar with this group I suggest you Google around for them. It's quite common.

 

Also take note how this latter phenomenon ever so rarely seems to include religions from regions beyond the near and middle east (except when they "broad stroke" items like a flood story or maybe to lesser extent a creation concept). For example Pacific Island belief systems are omitted as are American groups (of the same time periods...apples to apples you understand). It's a fascinating study.

 

mwc

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I can only speak for myself. Before I was born again, I could not hear the voice of God or understand the spiritual meaning behind the Bible. However, once I was, I could.

Seriously. Do you really "hear" (physically through audio waves) God, or is it in your mind?

 

Do you really "understand" hidden meanings in the Bible, or is it more a matter of picked fitting pieces and put them together so they make sense to you?

 

I can take almost any poetry and twist the "hidden" meaning of the words to mean something else.

 

And before we accuse me of being brainwashed by the clergy into thinking these things happened, let me reiterate my experience. I was raised Catholic and grew up believing that the Bible could only be understood by the ordained priesthood and that if I tried to read it on my own, I would go insane. Once I ceased to believe and rejected both Christianity and God, I delved for answers in philosophy and the hard sciences. I, also, searched in other religions. I graduated from college with a Chenistry major and a Math minor. I was surprised when preparing for graduation, that I was told I could take one more course as a senoir and have a second minor in comparative religion. I had taken Hinduism and Zen and even a secular course called "The Bible as literature and poetry" as electives because I was searching for truth.

 

Anyway, I never saw anything in the Bible, but what was on the surface. I saw no hidden spiritual meanings and heard no divine voices. Yet, the night I was born again when the Lord visited me, I got up off the floor and opened an old family Bible I had inherited and it was a completely open book to me. I few hours earlier, nothing. But now, I spent the whole rest of the night and half the next day reading with comprehension what I never could understand before.

Oooohkay. Yeah. I do seriously think you had some nervous collapse. Maybe from stress or being overworked, disappointed or something... but I have strong doubts that suddenly God really visited you. Consider that there are people who want to meet God their whole life and work for it and never get that feeling or experience, and that really makes you wonder why you, and why not this or that person?

 

I only later went to a Christian church for the first time and added language and understanding to what had happened to me. I learned that my spirit had been reborn or reconnected to God and I heard His voice and could understand His Word. This had nothing to do with my soul or my carnal mind both of which had tried to do the same thing in college in Bible class.

Are you being honest in all these things you're telling? I know Christians have a tendency or a slight desire to fudge the truth sometimes. But okay, I will take your word for it. You had an true experience with God. So are you open for that people of other religions and faiths can have the same experiences?

 

Somehow I just get the feeling you had an extreme experience of an epiphany. You studied things and suddenly they became clear because they were laid out that way. And it trained you to think accordingly. Like it can be in studying some subjects, it's really hard for quite a while, and suddenly it all falls together and the pieces come together and it makes sense.

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GH,

 

Like I said on the other forum, your hatred has blinded you with prejudice which is prejudgment. I have not made a dime in ministry for over 13 years since I left the institutional church. I make a living for me and my family as a real estate agent. I am a minister because God calls me one not because of any papers of man (which I burned when I left). The word church is ekklesia in the Greek and means called out ones. The double consonant I understand makes it twice called out. Chrisians are first called out of spiritual Egypt which is the world. If they go on to know God, they are then called out of spritual Babylon, the Mother of Harlots which is man made religion. In Rev. 18 God says "Come out of her, my people, so you will not partake of her sins and partake of her plagues". Jesus described this difference as the difference between a true shepherd who gives their life for the sheep and a hireling who takes the life of the sheep for his own profit.

 

Please do not assume that you know me and I will give you the same respect. Then, we can learn from each other without prejudice.

 

Kratos

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AM,

 

According to my present understanding, if you do not know God through Jesus Christ, you are not spiritual. You obviously are very insightful and almost a Renesaunce Man. However, I am not sure at all that you do not still know Him. I do not believe that the spirit once reborn can die again. If it ever was real with you, you are still spiritual even if your soul denies it. This is an honest answer whether the right one of not, I do not know. I Cor. 2:11 says that no one knows a man, but the spirit of the man which is within him. So, I surely am not qualified to make a judgment of you in particular. I am just saying how I define the term "spiritual".

 

Kratos

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The word church is ekklesia in the Greek and means called out ones.

Why must you keep doing this? Here's the rest of that "a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly."

 

And to show it's not always "magical" here's an example, from the bible of the word in common usage "Acts 19:39 - But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly." (1. among the Greeks from Thuc. [cf. Hdt. 3, 142] down, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of council for the purpose of deliberating: Acts xix. 39.) Note the word "assembly" here is "ekklesia" and is translated "church" elsewhere.

 

The double consonant I understand makes it twice called out. Chrisians are first called out of spiritual Egypt which is the world. If they go on to know God, they are then called out of spritual Babylon, the Mother of Harlots which is man made religion. In Rev. 18 God says "Come out of her, my people, so you will not partake of her sins and partake of her plagues".

By this logic there should be a single consonant version of the word but there's not. You are applying "foreshadowing" to a word to support your theology. It is reasonable to assume that this would mean that the verse I posted above is covered by all of this and that "church" (this was the "church" meeting in the huge theater at Ephesus where all the idle makers of Diana met to basically string up Paul...a very unlikely story all things considered but one can imagine Paul wanting to take center stage at such a fabulous and famous theater but getting the boot instead never to return but only stop at the port).

 

I think we both know the answer to all this. The word only has special meaning when it needs to have special meaning but otherwise is an ordinary word and the same goes for that double consonant.

 

I'll leave it to GH to deal with all the personal stuff but I'm a bit anal and can't seem to resist when it comes to these little word games (and I'm fairly certain he really doesn't care what you're going on about with all this anyway but I might actually be surprised one day :HaHa: ).

 

mwc

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GH,

 

Like I said on the other forum, your hatred has blinded you with prejudice which is prejudgment. I have not made a dime in ministry for over 13 years since I left the institutional church. I make a living for me and my family as a real estate agent. I am a minister because God calls me one not because of any papers of man (which I burned when I left). The word church is ekklesia in the Greek and means called out ones. The double consonant I understand makes it twice called out. Chrisians are first called out of spiritual Egypt which is the world. If they go on to know God, they are then called out of spritual Babylon, the Mother of Harlots which is man made religion. In Rev. 18 God says "Come out of her, my people, so you will not partake of her sins and partake of her plagues". Jesus described this difference as the difference between a true shepherd who gives their life for the sheep and a hireling who takes the life of the sheep for his own profit.

 

Please do not assume that you know me and I will give you the same respect. Then, we can learn from each other without prejudice.

 

Kratos

 

I don't need to 'know you' to know the type. You're Jesus' bitch and proud of it. Fair enough. But the day I have anything to learn from a holy roller is the day I know that the disease that over took my father has it's claws in my cerebellum, and it's time to consider drinking the hemlock...

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AM,

 

According to my present understanding, if you do not know God through Jesus Christ, you are not spiritual. You obviously are very insightful and almost a Renesaunce Man. However, I am not sure at all that you do not still know Him. I do not believe that the spirit once reborn can die again. If it ever was real with you, you are still spiritual even if your soul denies it. This is an honest answer whether the right one of not, I do not know. I Cor. 2:11 says that no one knows a man, but the spirit of the man which is within him. So, I surely am not qualified to make a judgment of you in particular. I am just saying how I define the term "spiritual".

 

Kratos

 

Fawning and Exclusivist semantic back flips all in one post... how terribly efficient.

 

Thus far, you fallen papist fool, all you've done is established your general insanity...

 

So, since you've started a glossary of your neuroses, could you tell us what other words you make up your own definitions for...

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AM,

 

According to my present understanding, if you do not know God through Jesus Christ, you are not spiritual.

You've given an interesting and careful response, but I want to point out a few things. I've always suspected that the dreaded T word is a stumbling block for you in where I hear you going with everything. Of course I mean Theology. I've mentioned it several times how you seem to have in tow behind you this theological baggage of little God-chains from earlier teachings that acts as a weight on you. I see it standing in the way of you seeing something with your heart you might otherwise see.

 

Recall how I said it is better to have your beliefs fit what exists, rather than trying to fit exists to your beliefs?

You obviously are very insightful and almost a Renesaunce Man. However, I am not sure at all that you do not still know Him. I do not believe that the spirit once reborn can die again. If it ever was real with you, you are still spiritual even if your soul denies it. This is an honest answer whether the right one of not, I do not know. I Cor. 2:11 says that no one knows a man, but the spirit of the man which is within him.

Interesting you should choose that verse. Personally I discern someone’s heart with my own heart, rather than a set of check lists to see if they match the set criteria. What happens too often is when you have this check list from a book of religious beliefs, you end up not seeing what’s right in front of you, and learn to see what listening to the heart might open to you. When you do allow your heart to see, then suddenly you are confronted with the realization that the check list stands in your way of seeing the world and learning from it, and you end up needing to shelve it if you have any hope to start moving beyond it in order to really learn.

 

Life is too big to put God inside a box of theology. Plus when you put people in there too, then you cut yourself off from them and yourself and from God. In metaphorical terms, eating of that tree of knowledge of good and evil does in fact cut you off from the Garden. The reason this happen is because it’s in fact being read literally as you seem to do more often than I think you care to recognize. Ironic, no? My answer? Set down the book and use the eyes of what your heart says. I did.

 

Let me give you an example. Do you think it’s fair of someone to take your label as that of a minister and put a box around you, assuming you’re motivated by money to hawk the wares of religion? I know the answer to this in your response to Grandpa here. Next question, how does it feel to you to be the recipient of prejudice, as you called that? Now flip that around and say we are listening to you take your reading of the Bible and categorizing all people who follow another path other than Christian teaching and saying they are not-spiritual?

 

Here’s the 650 trillion dollar secret: What you accept the Bible teaches, is reflective of what’s in your heart. I congratulate you on rejecting the Bible teaches there is a literal hell. Now keep going. But in order to do this, you will need to set the checklist down for awhile, and just listen with your heart. If you truly are spiritually minded, you’ll be amazed what you’ll hear. Then after a long time, after you’ve learned from the eyes of your heart, then go back to that Bible and see what you new insights you may get from it. I think you’ll be amazed.

 

So, I surely am not qualified to make a judgment of you in particular. I am just saying how I define the term "spiritual".

 

Kratos

I’m half tempted to say I defy what you might expect. But thank you for being sincere in your response. I recognize this.

 

P.S. You will notice how I used the language of seeing with the heart, etc throughout this post? This is what I mean about metaphorical uses of words, like spirit and soul. Of course I don’t believe the heart itself sees things. Language. It paints pictures of ideas. Representations, not facts.

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AM,

 

I understand what you are saying and have received the same advice from many Christian friends who no longer hold the Bible as a means to know God. I see the Word and the Spirit as two oars meant to keep straight the traveling of our individual and corporate boats. Some waves of God have washed on the shore for choosing the Word over the Spirit and others for choosing the Spirit over the Word. But, I John teaches that these two agree.

 

I have seen my life take a wrong turn when I misheard the voice of the Spirit or listened to other voices and the Word brought me back. Other times, I have gone off on a wrong tangent in the Word and the voice of the Spirit brought me back.

 

You are certainly right about the letter of the Word being something that we must overcome. I do continue to hold as truth that all will be gathered together as one in Jesus Christ. So, I do believe that all of mankind will eventually bow to His Lordship and confess to Him and be saved. However, I have chagned in my belief that He does work through other religions to forshadow Christ and to prepare the hearts for that day. All of the common beliefs in sacrifice and resurrection and virgin birth and literal temples that hold the glory of God is Him teaching by types what Christ came to do. Wed are all God's children and He has revealed Himself to everything that is made according to Romans. But, just as Christianity came out of Judaism so a belief and faith in Christ will one day come out of these other shadow faiths.

 

I know that this continues to sound exclusive and ego-centric, but I hope I do not have enough guile to hide what I believe just to sound open minded to others.

 

Kratos

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I know that this continues to sound exclusive and ego-centric, but I hope I do not have enough guile to hide what I believe just to sound open minded to others.

I’m starting with this to say that I wouldn’t want you to mince words, as I feel this is an important discussion to have. And if someone isn’t being honest about their thoughts, then no discussion is occurring.

 

AM,

 

I understand what you are saying and have received the same advice from many Christian friends who no longer hold the Bible as a means to know God. I see the Word and the Spirit as two oars meant to keep straight the traveling of our individual and corporate boats. Some waves of God have washed on the shore for choosing the Word over the Spirit and others for choosing the Spirit over the Word. But, I John teaches that these two agree.

Let me take a look at this because I hear something in the way you put this. You said you “have received the same advice from many Christian friends who no longer hold the Bible as a means to know God.” I wonder if the way you said that is exactly how they put, or how you take what they say to mean?

 

Speaking for myself, I never said what you just said, and I sort of doubt they meant it that way themselves. For you or anyone reading how I word this to not be too confused by my language, I’m using the word God to point to the experience of the spiritual in someone’s life, as that is for all intents and purposes how they use the word God themselves. I just choose to personally not call it God, and rather see it as a part of the human experience.

 

That said, I would say you could use the Bible to know God, just as well as you could anything else in life. But to look at it as the authoritative, inerrant source of knowledge about God is itself unfounded, and in my opinion a spiritually limiting mistake. I tend to think this is what your Christian friends meant too, but you take their not seeing the Bible as infallible and authoritative, as a total dismissal of its value. Why is it an all or nothing proposition to you?

 

My suggestion to you to put it on the shelf was because of how you, shall I dare say, misuse it? It’s a suggestion to quit turning to it for answers, rather than learning to hear with you heart. In other words, break your dependency on it, because it’s not going to give you what you look for. It’s like being afraid to walk without having a hand nearby to catch you. I hear it in your distrust of yourself based on past experiences how you probably went off the deep end when you went with the ‘spirit’ only. But I’d counter rather quickly that the problem was something else, and rather than picking yourself up and learning from the mistake, you want the answers handed to by an authoritative book.

 

I can’t disagree more with this sort of approach. We learn from mistakes. If I were to literally believe there was a God watching over us, it would be that he would want us to learn how to stand on our own, to trust ourselves in doing the right thing, in bringing to the world our own unique light. That we believe in principle of love and compassion and let them guide us in our lives would be the height of a spiritual life, where our actions our not guided by a rule book, but by our own hearts that respect and uphold principles that promote love and peace in the world, growing and maturing to see the world beyond ourselves, and letting that be a living example in us.

 

That can’t be achieved while you’re still hanging on to ‘tell me what’s right and wrong’.

 

The first sermon I preached was “The Two Great Commandments”. I said at that time that no other sermon ever preached in any pulpit would ever be needed if this were a living sermon in people’s lives. Essentially it’s the answer to the question what was the greatest commandment, and Jesus answered “Love God with all you heart, mind, and strength, and the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and prophets”. In other words, the ‘law and prophets’, as you know was the term used then that was our equivalent of saying The Bible. All the Bible is suspended on these two principles, from Genesis to Revelation.

 

Now again, using the word God liberally here… By loving “God” with all our hearts, minds, and strength, (by focusing on the ideals of life that promote love and peace), we become filled with hope that gives our hearts strength and courage in the face of despair. We become renewed, and from that source, which then fills our hearts it flows naturally out to others in actions that reflect these attitudes. As it says in Romans, “love works no ill”. If your heart is filled with love, you’re not going to steal, or lie, or make war with your neighbor, but instead you will act in ways that are naturally compassionate, understanding, patient, etc. In other words it begins with the heart and flows out to actions.

 

All these are very humanistic principles that anyone can live and realize without having to couch them in the terms of mythological symbolism. It’s my personal feeling that the reason these sorts of things took that symbolism in early Christianity was because it was essentially the establishment of the day, and so it naturally used that supporting language as a vehicle for these humanistic ideals. All that to say, that’s why I don’t hear you talking about God, per se’ but rather these things I know, but without that language. I hear the humanity behind the language.

 

All this to say, it says that the law and prophets (or the bible) is fulfilled without once needing to attempt to obey it or even have knowledge of it, if someone gets the eyes off the rules of “tell me right from wrong”, and let their hearts tell them. Like that old prophecy says, ‘my law will be written on their hearts’. How?

 

This is why judging another, is a forbidden thing in the NT. Because if you are, then it’s an indication you are not fulfilling the Two Great Commandments. Needless to say, it was pretty quite in the room after that sermon. (I just added the bits about humanist principles now however).

 

I have seen my life take a wrong turn when I misheard the voice of the Spirit or listened to other voices and the Word brought me back.

Then you weren’t hearing anything in your heart, and were hoping to hear something and consequently did not hear your heart. It sounds to me like you’re trying too hard.

 

Want to know one of the primary benefits for me in rejecting there was a literal God out there trying to talk to me, trying to guide me? Once that guess work was out of the way, I only had to search my own heart to hear my own voice. And that voice is one that is shaped by the things I embrace in my heart as good and beautiful. They are the source of my strength, and I try to let them live through me to others. “Love God, love your neighbor”. Drop either side and the whole chain falls to the ground and you break the whole “Law of God”. Attitude, action. I don’t have to think what to do. I don’t have to check myself against any Bible to know.

 

You are certainly right about the letter of the Word being something that we must overcome. I do continue to hold as truth that all will be gathered together as one in Jesus Christ. So, I do believe that all of mankind will eventually bow to His Lordship and confess to Him and be saved. However, I have chagned in my belief that He does work through other religions to forshadow Christ and to prepare the hearts for that day. All of the common beliefs in sacrifice and resurrection and virgin birth and literal temples that hold the glory of God is Him teaching by types what Christ came to do. Wed are all God's children and He has revealed Himself to everything that is made according to Romans. But, just as Christianity came out of Judaism so a belief and faith in Christ will one day come out of these other shadow faiths.

 

 

Kratos

Actually I would say if we were to use Christ as the symbol of ultimate revelation and knowledge, that Christianity itself is exactly in the same boat as all the rest, a mere foreshadowing of the ultimate truth. Therefore, as much light as you have, so does every other human being.

 

How does this sound to you? Christianity is a path that you found offers the best light to your path. But you recognize that all religions are likewise offer the best light to those people’s paths. You are all equals on that road.

 

You see, to me humility is the true hallmark of a life that has begun to understand.

 

P.S. Sorry if my use of language seems disconcerting to those who know me. I’m trying it out to see how it communicates. They’re all just symbols pointing to human things. In other words, you all quit being such damned literalists! :HaHa:

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AM,

 

I really do hear what you are saying and a lot of it is what I tell others about making the shift from the Old to the New Covenant. In the Old, the Law of God was written where all could read it in a book or on tablets of stone. In the New Covenant, the Law of God is written on the fleshly tables of the heart and each should know Him from the least to the greatest. The problem that I see that you do not is that there are many voices out there that try to appear as the voice of God that are not. The Bible says that we must test the spirits because not all are of God. How do we test the spirits? By whether what they say agree with the principles of the written Word.

 

For example, an Al Quida member says that no one should tell him what is right and wrong. That he should be free to listen to his heart and do what it says. Of course, it says to put together a car bomb and blow up a bunch of families at the market place. Without a standard that is clear that says "Thou shalt not kill", who are we to say that the voice he hears is any less "God" than the voice that I hear.

 

I have had married fathers tell me that God brought another woman into their lives to fulfill God's purpose in their lives. When I mention the commandment about adultary, they say that this is Old Covenant Law and the Law written on their heart says that they should go with the one they love today instead of who they once loved and produced these children with. Of course, the wife and the children hear in their hearts what they think is God saying that they should be able to stay a family and this "angel" that is revealing God's voice to their father is really nothing but a homewrecker who thinks that her inner voice tells her to take what belongs to another just because she wants to and can.

 

I do not live daily by the words in a book. I do live by the life and death I feel in my heart. But, I also know that my heart can be deceiptfully wicked when it wants what it wants over what is really right. The Bible calls it the mystery of iniquity when you see right in what everyone around you can see is wrong. The Bible gives me a way to check my heart to see if I have run astray. It is like a standard weight by which we periodically check the balance of a scale that we use everyday to do business. God hates and unjust balance.

 

I guess if you lived in this life alone and your actions did not affect those around you, we would need no laws written in books for all to abide by. If there were no other drivers or pedestrians on the roads, the drunk driver could go with what he hears in his heart and go kill himself on the road if he wants to. But, this is not reality and I still see the need for a standard by which to test the spirits speaking in our hearts.

 

Kratos

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AM,

 

I really do hear what you are saying and a lot of it is what I tell others about making the shift from the Old to the New Covenant. In the Old, the Law of God was written where all could read it in a book or on tablets of stone. In the New Covenant, the Law of God is written on the fleshly tables of the heart and each should know Him from the least to the greatest. The problem that I see that you do not is that there are many voices out there that try to appear as the voice of God that are not. The Bible says that we must test the spirits because not all are of God. How do we test the spirits? By whether what they say agree with the principles of the written Word.

 

For example, an Al Quida member says that no one should tell him what is right and wrong. That he should be free to listen to his heart and do what it says. Of course, it says to put together a car bomb and blow up a bunch of families at the market place. Without a standard that is clear that says "Thou shalt not kill", who are we to say that the voice he hears is any less "God" than the voice that I hear.

Ahh..., but the Al Qaeda member is a prime example of why we should NOT turn to a holy book! They find clear support in their holy book from their God to do these deeds. It justifies their inhumanity, rather than them being left with the sole responsibility for their immorality.

 

As far as the many voices out there being a problem, well here comes a really sticky mess when you start trying to say some voices aren’t good because they don’t agree with how some people have traditionally read the Bible. Please understand that people read the Bible as a reflection of their cultural values. God is in fact created in their image, and what happens more often that anything really positive coming from it, the Bible, or I should clarify their understanding of the Bible, is used as a voice of authority to demonize these “strange” voices of change which is really just social evolution.

 

The Bible is simply as tool of societies. Do people have to have such a sacred text in order for them to live civilly? Absolutely not! People generally work to get along because it benefits them. It’s that simple. Of course you will have greedy people clamoring over others and violating this system of cooperation, but that’s why society has it’s systems for communicating values. The Bible is hardly the only one. The Bible is one of many, and in this day and age how it has been used has been making itself more and more irrelevant as such. It’s only through evolving it to speak to a modern world that it will have any hope of functioning as a social symbol. As it stands now, thanks to the fundamentalist, it’s becoming increasingly impotent. Society finds new mythologies on which to hang its values.

 

I have had married fathers tell me that God brought another woman into their lives to fulfill God's purpose in their lives. When I mention the commandment about adultary, they say that this is Old Covenant Law and the Law written on their heart says that they should go with the one they love today instead of who they once loved and produced these children with. Of course, the wife and the children hear in their hearts what they think is God saying that they should be able to stay a family and this "angel" that is revealing God's voice to their father is really nothing but a homewrecker who thinks that her inner voice tells her to take what belongs to another just because she wants to and can.

And here’s a great example of why believing God is involved in the affairs of our daily lives directly leads to a lack of taking responsibility for one’s own actions! The answer isn’t reading the Bible ‘correctly’. The answer is everything falls on the individual. All God cares about is living life sincerely and respectfully of yourself and others.

 

Now as far as this gentleman’s affairs, these are tricky human matters. There could be 10,000 reasons as relationships are complex and dynamic. Casting a word like “adulterer” at the party having the affair to me seems a gross oversimplification of hugely complex relational issues. Maybe the guy is totally selfish from the word go, but typically it’s vastly more complex than just that. I wouldn’t venture to cast judgment on anyone without understanding the relationships, and even then the role as a minister should be to help those who are in pain find peace, forgiveness and the best possible resolution. And sadly, sometimes not staying in a relationship is the best thing for everyone involved. It’s unfortunate that sometimes people get hurt in these sorts of things.

 

But saying you have to stay together because you married them at one point in your life because you are committed to obey the LAW of God, to me is far more harmful to everyone. Try to follow through with commitments, of course. Do everything you can, sacrifice, compromise, and work to make things work. But at the end of the day, sometimes parting is the right choice. That to me is compassion. Having God command the stoning someone to death for not staying in an unhealthy relationship because society demands it is inhuman.

 

I do not live daily by the words in a book. I do live by the life and death I feel in my heart. But, I also know that my heart can be deceiptfully wicked when it wants what it wants over what is really right. The Bible calls it the mystery of iniquity when you see right in what everyone around you can see is wrong.

Well it depends on what everyone calls wrong. Freeing the slaves was considered wrong by everyone.

 

My guide is simple. Sincerity.

 

If I am lying to my own heart, than I am my own judge. If I am sincere to what I believe in, then I will be true to that and the world can wag their tongues all they wish. Chance are what I wish for in my heart and choose to act upon, is what others would wish for their own but are too afraid to be ostracized by those who would call them wicked and evil for rocking the boat of their complacency.

 

The Bible gives me a way to check my heart to see if I have run astray.

My heart and my conscious give me mine. The checksum is my commitment to integrity. Sincerity.

 

I guess if you lived in this life alone and your actions did not affect those around you, we would need no laws written in books for all to abide by.

There is a difference between the laws of the land that society agrees on together, and a book that imposes itself morally on others which is controlled by priests.

 

For the most part, laws are shared with each other and enforced by each other. Police are typically for the most extreme cases of those who cheat the system. Humans know how to cooperate. That’s how we survived, long, long before the birth of God.

 

If there were no other drivers or pedestrians on the roads, the drunk driver could go with what he hears in his heart and go kill himself on the road if he wants to.

That’s nonsense. Being irresponsible in your behaviors in a society is not a matter of being guided by one’s heart to matters of right and wrong, just and unjust. There’s no thought involved at all, and that’s the problem. And society deals with those who can’t bring themselves to participate in society to protect each other by removing them from society.

 

Going with your heart does not equal lawlessness abandon. Nonsense.

 

But, this is not reality and I still see the need for a standard by which to test the spirits speaking in our hearts.

 

Kratos

You’re mixing your analogy. Drunk drivers and being able to discern what is in your heart as being sound and in agreement with your principles have zero to do with one another.

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I do not see it as ridiculous at all. It represents the fact that laws are used to set a standard because not all have standards in their own heart. The Bible says the same that the Law is not for a righteous man, but for whoremongers, murderers etc. When a person is able to hear and listen to the inner voice of God, they no longer need to written law. But, we all have experienced times when we were not in a hearing place and just living our lives selfishly with no regard for others. This is when having a book like the Bible can bring us back to what is right and good.

 

I totally disagree over the adultary thing unless you think what you want to do for yourself is more important than the committments you make in life. Keeping your word even when it is not what you want is what makes us of value to the world and ourselves.

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No, Kratos, you simply are an arrogant, blinded tosspot who hears things and uses a book of collection of sayings and thoughts of Bronze age savages to vindicate his world view...

 

No better than the radical Islamicist who persuades other men to do their dirty work... they tend to be unpaid clergy too...

 

Where do you stand on 1 Tim 2?

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