What Does It Mean To Be Carnally Minded?

[Mythra]

Please do not be condescending with me. I am just sharing what I believe as you are sharing what you believe. I do not think that you are too stupid to understand what I believe, I just understand that you disagree. Neither am I too stupid to understand what you believe.

 

I don't think you're stupid, Kratos. Truthfully, I don't.

 

But, just as you think we are "blinded by the god of this world"

 

I think you are blinded by the god in the book.

 

Just as we were. Many of us for a really long time.

[Grandpa Harley]

Problem is that result is the same...

[Mythra]

Problem is that result is the same...

 

If you're referring to personal bias influencing a person's thinking, there's no doubt about it. It's human nature. It's present even in those who think themselves to be the most objective and impartial thinkers.

 

The difference is in the belief that something supernatural is intentionally influencing and manipulating one's thoughts.

 

And therein lies the religious disease.

[Kratos]

MWC,

 

Free will is only free within what is offered and the freedom only affects the "when" and does not affect the "what" of the matter. Because we all have received the sin nature from Adam without any choice of our own, we will all partake of death when this sin nature manifects in a decision away from obedience to God. The only affect that our will has is when we will do this. Some will disobey God and choose their own life the first time they knowingly understand this choice at maybe 8 years old. Another may stay in relationship with God through willful obdedience until 12. Either way, death will eventually work in us by God's sovereign choosing of our current situation.

 

Similarly, all will eventually be saved in Christ. Our free will does not extend to the point of changing this sovereign situation. Our free will only affects the "when" of our following His predestined path for all. Some will voluntarily come under in this life and most will not do so until an age to come.

 

If this second part of the equation were not true as the orthodox church believes, then the first part would indeed not be fair. If God did not take upon Himself the responisbility to save all men in Christ, decreeing all to be lost in Adam would not be righteous judgment. I still think that many of you rejected God on the basis of eternal torment and either Calvinism or Armeniusism paradoxes. But you know better than I.

 

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

The reason I do not try to covert you is I sense no desire for God at this point in your lives and I have the promise that none will be lost in the fullness of time.

 

Kratos

[Mythra]

The reason I do not try to covert you is I sense no desire for God at this point in your lives

 

Amazingly insightful on your behalf, kratos.

 

But, we really do appreciate the scriptures. We never realized any of that stuff was actually in the bible.

[Mythra]

Free will is only free within what is offered and the freedom only affects the "when" and does not affect the "what" of the matter. Because we all have received the sin nature from Adam without any choice of our own,

 

You really like to talk about Adam, don't you? Got any idea when it was exactly (or approximately) when Adam lived?

[Deva]

The reason I do not try to covert you is I sense no desire for God at this point in your lives and I have the promise that none will be lost in the fullness of time.

 

Kratos

 

But what if we don't want to be found?

 

Congratulations Kratos, overall this is one of the most nauseating posts I have read this year, beating out numerous Christian and psuedo-Christian contenders.

[Kratos]

Mythra,

 

I hate to see this thread diverted to the whole earth age thing, but I promised to answer all questions honestly. The reason Adam is so often mentioned is that he is the precursor of one of the two races of men on the earth today. We all have our origin in the first Adam and bear his image in the earth. We will all be translated into the second Adam (Jesus Christ) and bear His image.

 

I believe that Adam lived approximately 6,000 years ago. I, also, believe that the earth is billions of years old and that there have been many races of men that have lived on the earth in ages past. I believe that the Bible teaches this.

 

Kratos

[Mythra]

I believe that Adam lived approximately 6,000 years ago. I, also, believe that the earth is billions of years old and that there have been many races of men that have lived on the earth in ages past. I believe that the Bible teaches this.

 

It really doesn't matter what you believe it teaches. It doesn't.

 

Although the 6,000 year thing is pretty close. (not to the truth, mind you, but close to being biblical)

 

But to come up with any other answer would be an admission that the geneology of Jesus Christ is false. So, I understand the dilemna.

[Mythra]

Now, about universalism. And the verses you posted from Romans and 1 Corinthians: It's great. Certainly a step above fire and brimstone.

 

Unfortunately, there are an equal number of equally convincing verses supporting fire and brimstone, torment and the gnashing of teeth. I'd dig them up, but really - why bother. It's not like each and everyone here isn't sickeningly aware of the bible's ability to be whatever one wants it to be.

 

The bible is the great chameleon. A wonderful tribute to human ingenuity and imagination. And a compendium of utter nonsense and fantasy.

[Grandpa Harley]

Problem is that result is the same...

 

If you're referring to personal bias influencing a person's thinking, there's no doubt about it. It's human nature. It's present even in those who think themselves to be the most objective and impartial thinkers.

 

The difference is in the belief that something supernatural is intentionally influencing and manipulating one's thoughts.

 

And therein lies the religious disease.

 

I actually meant that whether one is blinded by bias, or just congenitally stupid, the net effect is the same... if they are the former, they may as well be the latter, but if they are the latter, then they are to be pitied but not indulged...

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW, Kratos... where do you stand on 1 Tim 2:11-15?

[Deva]

Now, about universalism. And the verses you posted from Romans and 1 Corinthians: It's great. Certainly a step above fire and brimstone.

 

Unfortunately, there are an equal number of equally convincing verses supporting fire and brimstone, torment and the gnashing of teeth. I'd dig them up, but really - why bother. It's not like each and everyone here isn't sickeningly aware of the bible's ability to be whatever one wants it to be.

 

The bible is the great chameleon. A wonderful tribute to human ingenuity and imagination. And a compendium of utter nonsense and fantasy.

 

Yeah Mythra, sickening is right. I have never seen so much cherry-picking, twisting, and pretending as goes on among liberal and universalist so-called "christians." We have one here who is living proof that you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to.

 

It is sheer fantasy and totally dishonest to pretend those verses about fire and brimstone just don't matter when they are presented in the gospel as the words of Christ himself. Christ is the one who talked about hell. You can twist it and say when he talked about hell it was a parable, but then those parts you like are literal. The lake of fire is in Revelation, but that's just symbolism, isn't it? You can trot out all the "good" verses you like, it still does not take away the others. Pull off the blinders!! By what twisted logic and pretense do people come on here and talk about "all will be saved in Christ" and free will and one time being free and at another not? Kratos, why limit free will to when? Obviously, because it serves your own purpose of your fantasy. If it is limited, how is it then free? It is willful ignorance, nonsense, and out-and-out dishonesty coming from an otherwise intelligent person. A disgusting spectacle.

 

These universalists don't want to face reality, same as fundamentalist xians. The only difference I see is that they don't try to force their beliefs on others, which I guess IS something, but very little.

[Grandpa Harley]

Deva,

 

There are Universalist Humanists who regard the Christian Universalists with a similar level of disbelief at the idea that anyone can live in something that small to us...

[Grandpa Harley]

as an addendum... the whole concept of Hell was alien to the Aramaic mind. The whole Jesus says you're going to hell thing is accepting the Greek view and imposing the Revelations image onto the Gospels...

 

Jesus' references to Gehenna would be akin to a New Yorker suggesting 'if you're going to do that, you may as well throw the rest of your life into Fresh Kills.' The ideas in Judaism wherein it became a metaphor for some sort of post mortem place of 'purification' is post AD70, when Judaism got solidly kicked in the nads and was nearly destroyed...

 

However, Christianity has little or nothing to do with what Jesus could have thought or meant...

[Deva]

Deva,

 

There are Universalist Humanists who regard the Christian Universalists with a similar level of disbelief at the idea that anyone can live in something that small to us...

 

I'm sure you are right Gramps, even though I have never heard of a Universalist Humanist. If it is "Christian' along with "Universalist", it is dishonest. There are large portions of their Bible they don't want to look at. These xians in their charming, comfortable little make believe worlds. Then they try to pawn it off on those of us who have SEEN how small and how fake their little world is.

[Deva]

However, Christianity has little or nothing to do with what Jesus could have thought or meant...

 

I am well aware of that, but I doubt they are. Their knowledge of the "historical Jesus" and the language translation problems is zero. So the fact that they use Jesus' name as an authority for their nonsense and use the name "Christian" opens them up to criticism for taking parts of the sayings attributed to him and not all of them. In fact all the verses Kratos quoted in his last post were written by Paul. Its really all "Paulianity" and the later church and nothing else (except Revelation, let's throw that out). Take Jesus Christ's name out of it! Stop pretending to have an authority for your fantasy!

[dr_funkenstein]

I think I've come up with a good way of getting a persistent xian off your back:

 

Just tell them that by turning away from god and leading a sinful life, you're actually following god's will. You see, he predestined YOU for salvation; you're one of the elect. But me? I'm just predestined for destruction. Stop trying to go against the will of God - for it says in Romans 9:16-23:

^₁₆

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

¹⁷

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

¹⁸

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

¹⁹

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

²⁰

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

²¹

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

²²

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

²³

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?

So you see, I have been prepared in advance for destruction so that you - the object of god's mercy - can look at me and know the riches of his glory. When I'm burning in hell, you can look down and know that god put me there in his divine will just so you can appreciate what you've got in heaven.

 

Don't fight the will of god!

[Deva]

I think I've come up with a good way of getting a persistent xian off your back:

 

Just tell them that by turning away from god and leading a sinful life, you're actually following god's will. You see, he predestined YOU for salvation; you're one of the elect. But me? I'm just predestined for destruction. Stop trying to go against the will of God - for it says in Romans 9:16-23:

^₁₆

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

¹⁷

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

¹⁸

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

That's right, Dr. Funk, we know its all a farce, but let's nail them with their own twisted logic! Their "free will" that isn't so damn free.

[mwc]

Free will is only free within what is offered and the freedom only affects the "when" and does not affect the "what" of the matter.

So I must turn left but I get to choose when I do it? The skies really the limit in your world isn't it? Basically what you're telling me is "YOU, MWC WILL SUBMIT! WE CAN DO THIS THE EASY WAY OR THE HARD WAY. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME. NO ONE WILL RESIST." (All caps for effect...choose your own cheesy evil accent to use when reading it.) If you don't think that's what you just told me go ahead and re-read your statement.

 

Because we all have received the sin nature from Adam without any choice of our own, we will all partake of death when this sin nature manifects in a decision away from obedience to God. The only affect that our will has is when we will do this. Some will disobey God and choose their own life the first time they knowingly understand this choice at maybe 8 years old. Another may stay in relationship with God through willful obdedience until 12. Either way, death will eventually work in us by God's sovereign choosing of our current situation.

Now you're back on this whole idea of disobeying "god." Remember how you said that "god" only put his rules on people who entered mutually into contracts with him? In order for anyone, especially these kids, to "sin" (ie. break his rules) they would have to first be bound by those rules. This means they mutually agreed to a contract and it seems that this is done by being born. But you keep saying that it was this "Adam" that did all the wrong. (But nowhere in the bible does it state he agreed to any contract either...read Genesis...not one word mentions a contract or anything like it.)

 

Also, for people like myself, I walked away from said contract(s). They are now null and void. I'm not bound by anything. Most of the world isn't bound by anything. Only you accept the agreement and are bound by some rules in a book and you are expecting everyone else to follow those rules and live their lives by the contract(s) you accepted. You are being naive.

 

Similarly, all will eventually be saved in Christ. Our free will does not extend to the point of changing this sovereign situation. Our free will only affects the "when" of our following His predestined path for all. Some will voluntarily come under in this life and most will not do so until an age to come.

Saved? From what? Being human? That's what we are. You seem to be eager to save us from ourselves. So when we are "saved" what comes next? Describe the steps. We are not saved. Which means something. Now go through the steps. We get "saved," meaning something else and then what and so on. Describe the purpose and why it's mandatory. Sell me but don't preach (just hit the highlights).

 

If this second part of the equation were not true as the orthodox church believes, then the first part would indeed not be fair. If God did not take upon Himself the responisbility to save all men in Christ, decreeing all to be lost in Adam would not be righteous judgment. I still think that many of you rejected God on the basis of eternal torment and either Calvinism or Armeniusism paradoxes. But you know better than I.

Not seeing the purpose of the "christ." God spoke the world into existence. God said "Let them be saved" and they were saved and their being saved was good. All done. I did it one sentence. Why is your version of "god" so inefficient? Mine is modeled on the one at the beginning of the book and gets things done.

 

Actually, most people stayed with "god" longer because of the hell doctrine. It's a powerful tool to keep people in-line. When a hostage is told that an armed man is right outside the door and they will be killed if they try to escape that person is less likely to make a run for it. The hell doctrine works much the same way. Even if you don't agree with it the odds you make a run for the door is pretty low since you don't want to take that chance of getting shot yourself. It's frightening to run through that door.

 

The reason I do not try to covert you is I sense no desire for God at this point in your lives and I have the promise that none will be lost in the fullness of time.

The reason you do not try to convert me is that you think I will be forced to bend to your ways at some future time whether I like it or not. "Resistance is Futile" saith the lord.

 

mwc

[Mythra]

Basically what you're telling me is "YOU, MWC WILL SUBMIT! WE CAN DO THIS THE EASY WAY OR THE HARD WAY. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME. NO ONE WILL RESIST."

 

You forgot the best part!

 

YOU WILL NOW BE ASSIMILATED.

 

[Ouroboros]

"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!"

[Grandpa Harley]

Kratos,

 

1 Tim 2:11-15... Right or wrong?

[Kratos]

Kratos,

 

1 Tim 2:11-15... Right or wrong?

 

 

GH,

 

Your thinly vailed attempts to change the subject are really pathetic. You have not once contributed anything to these discussions of value. We are discussing what it means to be carnally minded. In your typical ad hominem attempts to attack the messanger so that you can defeat the message, now you want to know if I agree with the way that God orders His Kingdom when it comes to men and women. If you are incapable of discussing the subject of the carnal mind, then start one on domestic order in marriage or something. Your manuevers to derail every thread that I participate on really does get old and I am glad that you would not want your daughter marrying my son. I would never want my grandchildren learning from someone with such a foul mouth. I bet your grandchildren cuss like sailors from being around you.

 

It really is okay to just admit that you know nothing about a subject or keep silent so no one will know. Trying to destroy my understanding of the carnal mind by trying to make me sound sexist or like a chauvenist is really weak. I wonder if Antlerman gets tired of having his threads hijacked by you? It is the same maneuver used by another by asking me how long ago I think that Adam lived in the middle of the discussion.

 

This really seems more and more like a waiste of my time.

 

Kratos

[Grandpa Harley]

Kratos,

 

1 Tim 2:11-15... Right or wrong?

 

 

GH,

 

Your thinly vailed attempts to change the subject are really pathetic. You have not once contributed anything to these discussions of value. We are discussing what it means to be carnally minded. In your typical ad hominem attempts to attack the messanger so that you can defeat the message, now you want to know if I agree with the way that God orders His Kingdom when it comes to men and women. If you are incapable of discussing the subject of the carnal mind, then start one on domestic order in marriage or something. Your manuevers to derail every thread that I participate on really does get old and I am glad that you would not want your daughter marrying my son. I would never want my grandchildren learning from someone with such a foul mouth. I bet your grandchildren cuss like sailors from being around you.

 

It really is okay to just admit that you know nothing about a subject or keep silent so no one will know. Trying to destroy my understanding of the carnal mind by trying to make me sound sexist or like a chauvenist is really weak. I wonder if Antlerman gets tired of having his threads hijacked by you? It is the same maneuver used by another by asking me how long ago I think that Adam lived in the middle of the discussion.

 

This really seems more and more like a waiste of my time.

 

Kratos

 

My you're up late and cranky... Few home truths...

 

If AM has a problem with me, sunshine, he'll hand me my arse on a plate... I doubt you can tell him much. Additionally, aren't we the little prince over the swearing? Tough.

 

BTW, you'll pleased to hear that I elected not to breed a long time ago, my genetics not being worth another outing, so I am the last of my line. and I said God-daughter you buffoon...

 

Still the preacher has teeth... however, baring them at me just means I'm hitting the spots of your entrenched hypocrisy, with its implicit misogynist glories... Feel free to stick me on ignore... but by and large, youre presence here is a waste of bandwidth... you came uninvited so take it and like it or FUCK OFF, you moron...

 

 

However, you've still not answered the question... you like the whole Adam and Eve thing... using it to cite carnality... well is woman more 'carnal' than man and thus needs suppressing, which is the point of 1 Tim 2:11-15.