273 replies to this topic

[nivek]

Seen peanut shells, sunk same!

[Grandpa Harley]

*Sets up deck chair, beer cooler, big foam hand with 'ANTLER#1, KAT NOONE!' on it and pulls on his beer hat*

This should be fun as Ants rips the supercilious nonentity a new arse hole...

[SWIM]

*Sets up deck chair, beer cooler, big foam hand with 'ANTLER#1, KAT NOONE!' on it and pulls on his beer hat*

This should be fun as Ants rips the supercilious nonentity a new arse hole...

I am wearing big giant foam antlers, with a big foam hand with the middle finger extended for kat22 lol

Bring the keg Harley, I will bring a big bag of boiled peanuts!

[R. S. Martin]

P.S. For those who may have noticed, I had started a similar topic last year, but it never took off as the apologist of that time bowed out of the discussion. I thought to start this as a new one on one discussion in the Arena might offer better results. I feel this is an important question for both sides of the discussion to examine.

One can only hope that this time the apologist will come through and answer the questions put to her. I feel A-man has put the situation in very good terms. He actually uses some of my own words and thought, i.e. the "fruits of the spirit" terminology. If "fruits of the spirit" and "by their fruits ye shall know them" is what counts, and I think it is, then Christians simply do not come out on top. I have mentioned to Christians that others are just as good as Christians. They responded that it isn't necessarily in being good. I could not at the time think what was wrong with that answer but now I realize that it was exactly this: By their fruits ye shall know them. If a tree does not bring forth good fruit....in other words, if people are not good then one knows they are not good. Period. If they are good, then they are good. Period.

I believe it was only after Jesus' death that his followers came up with fancy ideas as to the meaning of his death. I believe his own teachings were aimed at living this life on this planet, NOT at some future meaning in some future life. I believe the things that suggest otherwise are inserted by his followers and were not part of his personal teachings. Of course, I am here speaking in the case that he actually was a historical figure. If he was not a historical figure, then so much the more do I believe the teachings attributed to him were meant for this life on this planet.

[Deva]

Kat says in her opening statement: “I challenged many who's beliefs differed from my own. From those who believed in Christ, as the Son of God, but differed in the Belief of the Triune God (Jehovah’s Witnesses & Mormons) to those who didn't believe in the Son of God at all (Muslims, life-long Atheists & even Satanists!). None of them offered a serious challenge. I have also gone to many Christian sites, which try to prove many things about the bible and the early age of the earth. I think one document was called 301 Proofs of a Young Earth? I started ripping that one apart almost from the beginning, to the point of even starting an essay on all the errors in their “proof”. Most of those were inaccurate claims (if not flat out lies) or misinterpretations of data. By far, not my idea of “proof”.

So what is Kat’s idea of “proof”?. Why do none of these people offer a “serious challenge?” What would in fact be sufficient proof to convince her that the Triune God does not exist? She could rip the young earth creationist arguments to pieces, but there is no compelling physical evidence to resolve the question of a “son of God” or a “Triune God” such as we have with creationism.

She admits her bias. Clearly this is a deep emotional issue. It has nothing to do with “proof.” If Kat were serious about getting to the bottom of this issue (as she professes) she would start checking out books and reading both sides of the question until her eyes practically fall out.

But she is not willing to take the effort and energy needed to pursue this arduous line of inquiry. So we have here a fence sitter, like the majority of Christians we see on this site.

What do other religions offer humanity that Christ does not? Plenty. I am sure Antlerman is up to the task.

“Other religions” is a very broad area. Let’s just take two – Buddhism (I know some won’t say it’s a religion, but here goes). A practical way of seeing and dealing with life the way it is, and not depend on the fantasy “love” of an imaginary man in the sky. Hinduism – seeing yourself as the divine rather than as a depraved sinner. She should read The Upanishads.

[Grandpa Harley]

Someone convinced by Strobel? Jesus, Mary, Joseph and their donkey... I've lived too long!

It was at best poor hack work, by someone who had to convert if he wanted to continue to get laid by his wife, and realised there was money to be had... He doens't speak to a single voice for the Case AGAINST Christ in the book, it's just one side with sotto voce comments made on out of context quote...

[Ouroboros]

Post #6 Kat "As for the Christian faith. There is one thing that makes it different from all other religions: Miracles."

Really? I heard that there's a whole bunch of funny miracles happening in Hinduism and Buddhism. Levitating, healing... oh, what about Voodoo? That contains a whole bunch of witch-doctor stuff. Which also brings up shamans asking the gods for healing. Like the tribes in the jungle, sacrificing to ask the gods to help them or fix them...

Oh, what about the Old Testament? Don't we have miracles there? Is that Christianity or maybe... oh... that's Judaism isn't it...

Sorry Kat. You already lost points.

[Neon Genesis]

As someone who once believed in the hope of Jesus myself, I feel insulted that Kat says that one thing Christianity offers that no other religion can is hope in Jesus because he would always walk with us. Where was that hope Jesus gave when my mother was abused by my father (who is a deacon at their church, by the way), who would always hit my mother and threaten to hit her whenever she didn't do everything exactly the perfect way he wanted it? Where was Jesus' hope when I begged him to help me change my sexuality that I never could never change because I was afraid of going to hell for being gay? I also think it's rather arrogant of Kat to assume that people who don't believe in Christianity don't have any hope. What was that about judge not lest thee be judged? Isn't Kat basically saying that people who don't believe in Christianity are hopeless? Isn't that judging others?

[R. S. Martin]

Kat is making so many unsupported statements, Neon, just wait till Antlerman gets in there. That miracles are evidence is bullshit! That there is no hope outside Christ is hogwash. If you want a preview of what Antlerman is made of, you might find this debate enlightening, not to mention heartening: Is Christianity a Pessimistic Religion?

There is most definitely hope outside of Christ regardless of what Kat says. You're on the right track if you're doing your own thinking and solving your own problems. There is hope in that, even if Christians can't see it. Don't let yourself be bullied by egotistical Christians.

[Unknowing1]

As someone who once believed in the hope of Jesus myself, I feel insulted that Kat says that one thing Christianity offers that no other religion can is hope in Jesus because he would always walk with us.

Not only for eternal joy and life, but for this life's troubles as well. No one else has ever offered as much hope as Christ. To see your world come crashing down before you and still hold joy in your heart because your hope is not in the things you posses, or the people who are in your life... but in One that will never abandon you. The One who has promised us that He has already overcome it all. He will stand beside you, walk with you and, sometimes, even carry you when everything else fades away... when everyone you love falls short of your expectations. Christ is the Hope of the world.

I have to agree with you Neon. "He will stand beside you, walk with you and, sometimes even carry you when everything else fades away". I have friends who really do that and in fact there are visible signs of their help. If I am having issues with anything I don't sit back and wait for someone to come to my aid. I confront the issue head on, try to resolve it and if I have no other option, will ask for help from a living breathing human that I can see and feel. Most of the time if things don't work out it it's because I screwed up. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.

I find that most Christians are dependent upon others, arrogant and quite selfish in day to day life. But I can see where it would be the easiest route to go. On a personal level it can be hard to admit you aren't perfect, that you screwed up and to accept responsibility for your actions when you are dealing face to face with someone. It really is easier to apologize and ask forgiveness from an invisible being and if I have done that all other Christians must accept it regardless of how they truly feel about what I have done. I don't have the excuse that the devil made me do it and that I've now found Jesus, said my Hail Mary's so all is well. Without Christianity I really have to atone for my mistakes. Christianity is a cop out in my opinion.

[Taphophilia]

Miracles?

For some reason, I thought Kat would come up with something intelligent and thought provoking and at least give us a run for our money. Virgin births and the exact miracles that Jesus performed were a dime a dozen in the ancient world. Jesus didn't even do anything new and unique.

[R. S. Martin]

Miracles?

For some reason, I thought Kat would come up with something intelligent and thought provoking and at least give us a run for our money. Virgin births and the exact miracles that Jesus performed were a dime a dozen in the ancient world. Jesus didn't even do anything new and unique.

Same here. Maybe this is only the bait? She sounds genuine, though.

[R. S. Martin]

I wonder...It occurs to me that if she found authors like Strobel and C.S. Lewis so meaningful, maybe she thinks miracles are universally accepted pieces of evidence? I have not read either of those authors but my family went wild over Strobel's Case for Christ because he supported their beliefs so completely. Possibly these authors also promote the false beliefs that only Christianity has real miracles™ in its history. Possibly Kat is prepared to prove that the miracles of other religions are not real™.

No problem. AM is up to the task.

[R. S. Martin]

I see he has definitely been up to the task.

[upstarter]

Is it just me, or is Antlerman the sexiest man alive.

Nothing turns me on more than an articulate man who can argue with intelligence and grace. *sigh*

And we have to give Kat some credit. While we all have trouble with her weak arguements, she is at least not a ranting lunatic. She really has the potential to be one of us, if we can just get her to extend her investigation to some books written by non-xtians. Is her search for answers any different from where many of us started?

Heather

[Deva]

What kind of a nutty statement is this?

Kat22: Who would be willing to suffer the penalty of death unless they KNEW that death had been overcome? Even the disciples, themselves, were cowards. They all fled, for fear of death, when Christ was arrested. They left the faith and went back to FISHING after Christ died. Then, all of a sudden, they do a complete 180 and show no more fear of death!

Is it really true that no one in the history of the world could willingly suffer and die for a cause and not know anything about Xianity or hold a hope of a life after death? Seems unlikely. Also shows a tendency to accept the gospel accounts as disinterested biographical accounts with historical accuracy, which they were not.

Antlerman clearly doesn't need any help in demolishing these ridiculous arguments.

[SWIM]

Paul states, above, that our faith is in vain... CHRISTIANITY is in vain... without the resurrection. Our faith hinges on this miracle. Without it, Christianity falls apart.

If xtianity faith HINGES on this "miracle" shouldn't some proof of this "miracle" be required? There is no proof whatsoever of this anywhere. If it hinges on it, meaning it would fall like a house of cards, how can you base a lifetime belief on this one unprovable miracle?

[Ouroboros]

Well, I've been promised a miracle no later than December 15 by one of our visiting Christians on this site. So I'll just wait and see if Christianity is upheld by miracles or not.

[R. S. Martin]

What kind of a nutty statement is this?

Kat22: Who would be willing to suffer the penalty of death unless they KNEW that death had been overcome? Even the disciples, themselves, were cowards. They all fled, for fear of death, when Christ was arrested. They left the faith and went back to FISHING after Christ died. Then, all of a sudden, they do a complete 180 and show no more fear of death!

Is it really true that no one in the history of the world could willingly suffer and die for a cause and not know anything about Xianity or hold a hope of a life after death?

That's false. When I studied nineteenth-century Russian history I was struck with how willing young idealists were to sacrifice their lives for social reform. Maybe some of them were religious but I understood most of them were secular. They suffered and died with "religious zeal" to use the historians' words, but I understood they weren't religious.

There’s an over-all inconsistency to her argument in Post 10. I think that is what accounts for the strangeness of what you quoted. She refuses to “touch” AM’s personal experience. However, she insists that miracles are what hold Christianity together. She bases this insistence on our statements that if only God would show himself we would believe. In her words:

On this site, and others, I have heard it said many times "If ONLY he would make himself known, THEN I would believe!" or "If he wants me to trust in him, then why doesn't he show me a miracle?"

That, to me, is personal experience. Of Antlerman's testimony (in his Post 9 which she quotes in Post 10) she says:

This is a personal experience that I will not touch. To do so is to assume that I understand your experiences better than you do.

If she refuses to touch, or look at, personal experience, she refuses to consider the one piece of evidence that exists to prove or disprove the argument.

I trust Antlerman knows how to handle the situation but from here it looks like she is sticking her fingers in her ears and squeezing her eyes shut and chanting na-na-na, na-na-na, na-na-na. She's neither looking, nor listening, nor dialoging.

What bugs me is that she will go to church (and other sites) and testify that she had this debate with this atheist and despite what he professed, deep down he really [fill in whatever bullshit she imagines he believes]. I guess what others think of us does not matter so much as what we are, huh? All the same the lies hurt.

[Deva]

What kind of a nutty statement is this?
Is it really true that no one in the history of the world could willingly suffer and die for a cause and not know anything about Xianity or hold a hope of a life after death?

That's false. When I studied nineteenth-century Russian history I was struck with how willing young idealists were to sacrifice their lives for social reform. Maybe some of them were religious but I understood most of them were secular. They suffered and died with "religious zeal" to use the historians' words, but I understood they weren't religious.

I knew someone could come up with an example from history to disprove Katt's ridiculous assertion.

I trust Antlerman knows how to handle the situation but from here it looks like she is sticking her fingers in her ears and squeezing her eyes shut and chanting na-na-na, na-na-na, na-na-na. She's neither looking, nor listening, nor dialoging.

Thanks, Ruby. That is exactly the impression I get also. Let's keep watching as Atlerman takes her arguments apart.