My "extimony"

[★ Citsonga ★]

Hello everyone. I just found this site a few weeks ago, lurked for a week or so, and have only made a few posts so far. Allow me to take the time to share my testimony (or "extimony," as seems to be the appropriate term here). I apologize that it will inevitably be long.

 

I was born and raised in Indiana by a devoutly religious family. I had thought that we were in the "Bible belt," but according to the Wikipedia entry I just looked up, I guess we were just outside the Bible belt. At any rate, as a youngster I was surrounded by Christians pretty much all the time.

 

I was raised in Baptist and Freewill Baptist churches and thoroughly indoctrinated with the belief that the Bible is God's perfect, inerrant word. We were in church Sunday morning, Sunday evening and Wednesday evening. Most the people I came into contact with were believers, and the few who weren't were painted as "sinners" who "reject Jesus," so it was inevitable that my worldview early on would be Christian.

 

My father had a backwards personality and was overly strict on us kids. He was quick to pull the belt for "39 lashes" (ok, that's an exaggeration, it was probably 5-10 lashes, but it sure felt like 39) if we misbehaved. The really frustrating thing about that is that he was very quick to jump to conclusions, so there were also quite a few times I got the belt for things that I didn't do or that he misunderstood, but if I tried to explain I was told to "stop sassing." For a while as a child I hated my father, but I never tied the spankings to the religion and didn't question Christianity. I even heard my mother on one occasion tell my father that if the doctor ever saw the marks he left on us, he could go to jail, but that didn't faze him.

 

Anyway, due to me being brainwashed with fundamental Christian beliefs and having somewhat of a recluse for a father, when I went to school I had a tough time dealing with those who weren't Christians, and I only made friends with Christians.

 

Even though I "accepted Jesus" as a child, I had a "conversion experience" when I was 15, which from then on I considered the point when I was truly "saved." I started reading the Bible a lot, but was too brainwashed to see through the cracks. I started going to Wesleyan and Evangelical Mennonite youth groups, as well as Bible studies with friends. I switched to listening almost exclusively to Christian music. I was really immersing myself into religion. (I soon started going to the Wesleyan church regularly.)

 

I also got a drumset (I had previously played my cousin's set some, so I knew I had a knack for it). I got with a few other Christians and formed a Christian rock band. We were really into writing our own stuff; one of the guitarists was gifted at writing music, and he also wrote some lyrics, while I wrote most of the lyrics; another guitarist didn't write much, but had more music theory knowledge and could perfect the music the other guy wrote, and he was an excellent lead guitarist.

 

Anyway, we really believed that we had a calling in the Christian music scene. We had trouble finding a good lead vocalist, though, so we weren't able to get far. I do believe, though, that if we had had a good singer and some money to invest, we probably could have made it in the Christian music scene. We really wanted that, and I for one felt "inspired" to give discipleship-based sermons from the stage. But, alas, even though we worked up quite a number of decent songs over several years, we never got anywhere with it.

 

I had always done well in school except for science and history. I was so brainwashed with religion that I didn't have any interest in science, and the history teachers I had were quite boring until the last year I had to take history, at which time I finally got a good teacher who made it interesting. But, anyway, I survived in those classes and excelled in the other classes. I hated studying, but even with doing no more than absolutely necessary, I still graduated in the top 15% of my class. Yet I couldn't see through the indoctrination I had received.

 

I didn't have very good career counseling. Our guidance counselor just told me, "With your grades, you should go to college." My father just wanted me to "get a good job," whether or not it took college. There was no direction based on strengths and weaknesses. Since I believed I had a "calling from God," I wasn't all that interested in my career path. I figured I'd only work a normal job for a couple years and then break into the music ministry. So, I went to college for electronics, not because it's really what I wanted to do, but because I needed something to fund my musical direction, and I was told that "electronics is the thing of the future" and "you can get really good jobs in electronics."

 

So, off to ITT I went, and did rather well. Also, I had an hour commute to and from school, so I filled that time with listening to Christian radio broadcasts, like The Bible Answer Man, D. James Kennedy and other similar programs. Since the class I took was from noon to 4pm, I spent the mornings in prayer, Bible study and memorization, as well as drum practice. I was really focused on "growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus" and developing my "calling."

 

When I got out of school, I landed a low-paying electrical job (which I hated at the time). Then I got a decent factory job for a few years, moving into the electrical department there. It was a decent paying job for a young single guy. During this time I bought a lot of different Bible translations in study Bible formats, along with apologetics, counter-cult and creationist books. So, not only was I brainwashed by church, family and Bible reading, I was getting a lot of other strict Christian influence. The only skeptics' questions I really saw were the ones presented by Christians in the manner in which they wanted to present them in order to be able to have some sort of reply. So it seemed to me that one would have to be either ignorant or in denial to not accept "the truth" of Christianity.

 

I will admit that during this time, as I tried to study the Bible systematically, I did come across a few contradictions that weren't easily rationalized away, but I just chalked them up to my lack of understanding and prayed for God to enlighten me further. For other contradictions, I often either bought into apologists' arguments (which were undoubtedly sometimes correct, but other times flimsy rationalizing that I didn't see through) or formulated my own perceptions.

 

I also memorize huge amounts of Bible verses, including the entire books of Ephesians, James and 1 John, as well as several other chapters and miscellaneous verses. I think my last count was something like 896 verses memorized, and I memorized a few more after that, so I'm sure I topped 900 verses. I felt, what better way to know God than to know "His Word"?

 

During this time I shifted my theological views a little bit from my parents' views. I was raised in an Arminian environment, but came to a view that was somewhere between that and Calvinism. I believed that once someone was saved, the Holy Spirit changed that person to the extent that he/she wouldn't be able to find it in his/her being to turn away from God. So, any "ex-christian" to me had never been a Christian to begin with. Even though I had rejected some of my parents' (and others') interpretations, I still accepted the Bible to be the infallible "Word of God."

 

I met my wife through some church friends. She actually lived 500 miles away in Pennsylvania, so I had some reservations, but as we talked, we seemed to have a lot in common. We were both devoutly religious and liked to joke around some. She was Mennonite, but not the overly strict, near-Amish variety. Her views weren't much different from mine. So, I started traveling to see her, and it didn't take long for us to decide to get married.

 

We lived not far from where I grew up so I could still work the job I had, but less than a year after we got married, I got laid off. So I checked out some jobs down around Nashville, where one of my bandmates had moved to try to get into music, as well as jobs around the area that my wife was from. I ended up taking a job in Maryland for a few months, after which I finally got my first electronics job in Pennsylvania. It didn't pay as much as I felt that it should, but I didn't mind the job and it was giving me experience. My wife worked for a pharmacy for a while to help out.

 

I played drums for the "worship team" at the Mennonite church we went to there. The people were really warm and welcoming, so even though I wasn't a Mennonite myself, we had a lot of common ground. I also started teaching adult Sunday School classes. I was eventually teaching people older (both physically and in their faith), and I was commended on a number of occasions for my ability to "draw truth from the Word." I also wrote an article about the Cross of Christ that was published in the church's regional magazine.

 

I was asked by my pastor to deliver a Sunday evening message, which I did, and it went over really well (I think I still have a cassette recording of that message somewhere). My pastor approached me about considering going into the ministry, and I was also asked to do a Sunday morning message. I said I would pray about it, but I didn't feel the calling to be a preacher, so I declined that offer. I still felt a "calling" in music ministry.

 

My wife and I had a daughter, and my wife cut back her hours at work substantially. She worked one to two days a week, while her mother watched out daughter, and she stayed home the rest of the time. I was fine with that, because we didn't want to burden Grandma too much, and we weren't going to pay for daycare so my wife could work a low-paying job. Anyway, we had our daughter dedicated, which of course was just us committing to raise her with Christian beliefs.

 

I started playing with another Christian band in Pennsylvania, and we actually went around and did a lot of shows in PA, MD and NJ. I didn't expect it to go far, though, because the singer wasn't really all that good (though he was a really nice guy and I was the newbie, so it wasn't my place to say anything). But, hey, we were doing shows.

 

We actually had a band practice on the night of 9/11/2001. I think we only ran through one or two songs, and spent the rest of the time talking and praying. We were concerned what had happened, the families affected and the uncertainty of the country's future. Looking back, it's a bit ironic that we would find such distaste in the 9/11 acts and yet ignore all the bloodshed in the Bible.

 

Anyway, my wife and I had another daughter, and my wife had quit her job during the pregnancy. Our agreement was that she would stay home with the girls until they were both in school, and then she would go back to work during the school year.

 

The band was playing shows for practically nothing for the sake of the "ministry." I found it difficult to provide for the family and fund my portion of the band on one moderate income, and I felt that with my job and family and a band too (that I honestly didn't think would get anywhere, and I still don't), I was strapped for time and felt that I wasn't studying "The Word" as much as I should. So, after about a year in the band I resigned to study the Bible and seek God's direction some more, as well as save some money toward whatever that would be. Anyway, this period of Bible study actually led to the beginning of the end of my Christian faith.

 

In the fall of 2002 I was doing a parallel study of the Gospels again, but this time when some contradictions reared their ugly heads, I was no longer satisfied with brushing them off as though they're above my understanding. I was a fairly intelligent person otherwise, and I had been "seeking God's face" for 14 years, so why wouldn't I be able to understand simple narratives? There were details in the varying accounts that could not work together, and when I turned to apologists' writings, this time around I noticed that their proposed reconciliations often ignored some of the details, details which rendered their reconciliations impossible. I emailed a minister and some respected Christian friends about these findings, but their responses didn't hold much water. I checked out apologist websites, also to no avail. With all the praying and searching I was doing, I was still left with contradictory accounts, which helped me begin to see that the Bible simply can't be inerrant.

 

During this time, we had our dedication of our second daughter. I was a bit nervous about going through with it, but I was in a state of confusion about that I believed. I figured that if I find out that I still believe Christianity, then I'd want her raised with it, and if I found out that I don't believe it, what would the Christian God do to me if he didn't exist? So, I went through with the dedication, but I hated the process.

 

Anyway, I discussed my questioning with my wife. At the time, she thought I would just go through a temporary struggle like Peter in the Bible, after which I would immerge as an even stronger Christian. She even arranged for me to meet up with another minister in the area who had a theology degree, but he was of absolutely no help in the matter. He was nice enough, but he employed such double-speak that I just couldn't buy into his version of Christianity.

 

Though my wife thought I would be strengthened in the faith through my questioning, the exact opposite happened. I kept finding more things in the Bible that didn't jive. The final blow was in finding several "prophetic fulfillments" in the New Testament that were simply taking Old Testament texts completely out of context in order to fabricate fulfillments. A whole new light flicked on at that point and I realized that the Bible is nothing but a collection of writings of ancient superstitious nomads. After all, if you had a true story, why would you need to buff it up and sell it as prophetical fulfillment by twisting older texts to mean something completely different than they really were?

 

I started visiting a skeptics' message board and got into some discussions there, and between that and my own further Biblical readings now with skeptical eyes, the whole thing just continued to unravel more and more before my eyes, what with God-sanctioned cruelty, absurdities and such. I became pissed off that so much of my life had been wasted on religious bullshit, that I had rejected rational thinking in favor of dogmatism, that I had rejected mounds of scientific studies in favor of creationism just because of a text written in the stone-age, and that I had neglected to find and pursue a normal career that would be of interest and financial reward to me personally simply because I was blinded into thinking that I had a specific "calling" that was much more important than a career.

 

I went through a period of severe depression. I would go around saying things like, "Just pull the trigger and get it over with," much to my wife's dismay. I didn't really consider ending my life, but I also didn't really care whether I lived or died. I felt like a huge rug had been yanked from under my feet and I didn't have anywhere to get a foothold. I didn't know what to do. I really wish I had found this board during that time, because I think it probably would have helped me a good bit, possibly shortening my depression.

 

It just took time for me to heal. I did continue going to church for quite a while, just for my wife's sake. I hated, absolutely detested every minute of the services, but I still enjoyed chatting with the people there, so it wasn't all bad. We even tried out a few different churches, such as Presbyterian, Church of God and independent churches, but everything just seemed so shallow anymore. There definitely weren't any answers to the questions I was facing, nor did I expect there to be.

 

A friend could tell I was questioning things, so he asked what happed. He seemed to think that my lack of getting into the music industry probably soured me toward God. So, in an effort to explain that that was not the reason I was rejecting the faith, I wrote a lengthy letter explaining some of the Bible problems I was discovering. After I wrote it, I let my wife read it, and then I sent it. He later told me that, yeah, there are contradictions in the Bible, but even though the gospels don't agree on, say, the details surrounding Jesus' resurrection, they all say that Jesus rose from the dead, and that's all that matters. Of course, I couldn't fall for such nonsense. Is the Bible infallible or not? And, of course the gospels included in the canon say Jesus rose from the dead. If one of them had said he didn't, it would have either been altered or not included in the canon. So it's rather pointless to point out that they agree on that single thing.

 

What gets me is that my wife also read that letter, and she and I have had a handful of conversations about problems in the Bible, but she seems unfazed by it. Her faith is more emotionally based than factually based (whereas my faith was more factually based, even if only presumed factual), and her faith really helped her get through her struggle when her brother died (she was 13 at the time and was close to him). Because of that, and the fact that her father is a minister, I doubt she'll ever see through the nonsense.

 

At one service at our regular church, they had an altar call (which wasn't a regular occurrence in Mennonite churches), and an elder's wife came up to me and told me that the devil had taken way my faith and my joy, and she tried to get me to go up for prayer. I asked her to leave me alone, and after she walked away I headed out the door and left for a while (I came back later to pick up my wife and daughters). I wrote a polite, concise letter to that lady and explained that I wasn't trying to be rude when I told her to leave me alone, but that it was awkward having someone stand there and basically accuse me of letting the devil take control of my life, which I assured her was not the case (of course, I didn't point out that it would be an impossibility, since the devil doesn't exist). I said that I appreciated her concern for me and I thought she meant well, but in reality her actions were inappropriate and uncalled for. She's never pulled that stunt again, thankfully.

 

Now I am at a place where I am completely comfortable with my non-religious stance. So far this year, I've only been to church once, and that was when my parents came out for a visit. I still haven't broken the news to them that I don't believe anymore. I think my mother would be somewhat OK with it. I mean, she would probably say that she'll pray for me, but she probably wouldn't be pushy. My father, on the other hand, would be quite a different story. He's very opinionated and often doesn't know when to shut up, so I dread having him find out that I'm an agnostic and not going to church regularly.

 

My wife and I don't talk about this stuff much anymore. She's even quit asking me on Sunday mornings if I'm going to church, because she knows I most likely won't. Now she's been talking about homeschooling our daughters, which scares the hell out of me. They already get indoctrinated at church, and I damn sure don't want them getting indoctrinated with religious school propaganda. On the plus side, our 7-year-old daughter is rather inquisitive, so I imagine that as she gets older we can have some interesting discussions.

 

Thankfully I have a better job now. It's still not something I would choose to do if I had to do all over again, but it's not bad, and the pay isn't bad either. I do wish my wife would keep her word, though, and go back to work during the school year, since both of the kids are in school now. She does babysit some, but not a lot now, and when I mention getting a job, she just brushes it off. So, I basically have to shoulder nearly all of the financial burden of the family. If I had actually gone to a university and gotten into a rewarding career (instead of mindlessly pursuing a "calling"), it wouldn't bother me as much, since I would probably be earning more. As it is, even though I make a decent wage, providing for a family straps the budget a little.

 

But, back to the religious aspect. What bothers me the most about leaving the faith is what others think or will think of me. I know that when I was a believer, I thought that people who left the faith either didn't want to conform their lives to God's standards or were flat-out blinded by the devil, so I know that people do or will think that of me. It's really frustrating knowing that they're brainwashed, and yet they will think of me as brainwashed. They'll want to bring me back into the faith, they'll be praying for me and all concerned that I'll go to hell. Which, of course, doesn't exist.

 

Another thing that bothers me is that I feel so alone. I mean, my family, my wife, her family, our close friends and even some of my coworkers are religious (to some degree or another, anyway). I no longer feel comfortable at church, but I've never been interested in the bar scene either. And it seems that in these parts most people are either religious or partiers, and I'm neither. I did recently find out about a freethinkers group that meets monthly not too awfully far from here, though, so I may check it out. My wife won't like it, but hey, if she can go to her superstitious meetings every week, why can't I go have some sensible conversation once a month?

 

Maybe I will eventually inform my parents that I no longer believe, so I don't have to play a silly game (it's difficult treading water and beating around the bush to avoid either lying about or acknowledging my lack of faith). For some reason, I think that through some meaningful conversation, my mother would probably be respectful of my new views, and possibly even receptive. But gawd I fear my father's reaction would be pure hell for me.

 

Well, there it is, my "extimony" in a nutshell. I apologize for making it so long, but I did want to cover most of the more important aspects. Hopefully things will be looking up for me in the future.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I also memorize huge amounts of Bible verses....

 

Oops. I meant, "I also memorized huge amounts of Bible verses." Of course, I don't bother doing that anymore. Sorry for the typo.

[Deva]

But, back to the religious aspect. What bothers me the most about leaving the faith is what others think or will think of me. I know that when I was a believer, I thought that people who left the faith either didn't want to conform their lives to God's standards or were flat-out blinded by the devil, so I know that people do or will think that of me. It's really frustrating knowing that they're brainwashed, and yet they will think of me as brainwashed. They'll want to bring me back into the faith, they'll be praying for me and all concerned that I'll go to hell. Which, of course, doesn't exist.

 

Another thing that bothers me is that I feel so alone. I mean, my family, my wife, her family, our close friends and even some of my coworkers are religious (to some degree or another, anyway). I no longer feel comfortable at church, but I've never been interested in the bar scene either. And it seems that in these parts most people are either religious or partiers, and I'm neither. I did recently find out about a freethinkers group that meets monthly not too awfully far from here, though, so I may check it out. My wife won't like it, but hey, if she can go to her superstitious meetings every week, why can't I go have some sensible conversation once a month?

 

Maybe I will eventually inform my parents that I no longer believe, so I don't have to play a silly game (it's difficult treading water and beating around the bush to avoid either lying about or acknowledging my lack of faith). For some reason, I think that through some meaningful conversation, my mother would probably be respectful of my new views, and possibly even receptive. But gawd I fear my father's reaction would be pure hell for me.

 

Thank you for your ex-c testimony! I also was raised Baptist and spent a number of years going to different churches, reading different theological works to try to make it seem real or make it fit.

 

At age 50 I am a few years older than you but I can relate to many of the things you wrote, especially the above paragraphs. Informing the parents you don't believe is very difficult when you have been raised in it. I have yet to have a completely honest conversation with mine, although I think that will come soon. Fear is a factor. I also don't like to be thought of as someone who has a wasted life because she didn't believe.

 

I think it would be great if you could go to the freethinkers group and I would encourage you to do so. I know how lonely it can be.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thank you for your ex-c testimony! I also was raised Baptist and spent a number of years going to different churches, reading different theological works to try to make it seem real or make it fit.

 

At age 50 I am a few years older than you but I can relate to many of the things you wrote, especially the above paragraphs. Informing the parents you don't believe is very difficult when you have been raised in it. I have yet to have a completely honest conversation with mine, although I think that will come soon. Fear is a factor. I also don't like to be thought of as someone who has a wasted life because she didn't believe.

 

I think it would be great if you could go to the freethinkers group and I would encourage you to do so. I know how lonely it can be.

 

Thanks for your kind words.

 

My father can be so hard-nosed that even when I was a Christian I found it difficult to have a meaningful conversation with him. Now that I'm anti-christian, I definitely dread the thought of talking about it to him. I'm 36 now, but to him I'm probably still perceived as a child.

 

The next freethinkers meeting should be easy to go to, because my wife and daughters are planning to be at church camp then, so I'll probably go to it. Next month may be more difficult to get away, but if I enjoy the first one enough, I may have the ambition to put my foot down about it.

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, Citsonga.

 

Breaking free can be a long and arduous process, but well worth the claiming of one's authentic self. Best of luck in handling all family members. I'm glad you're here.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Welcome to the forums! Your studies of the cults and the Bible Answer Man sound so similar to my own path.

 

"A friend could tell I was questioning things, so he asked what happened. He seemed to think that my lack of getting into the music industry probably soured me toward God."

 

Don't you hate when they try to invent reasons for you being "wounded" or "angry at God"? Anything but the thought that the whole religion is as stupid as following Osiris or Zeus.

 

"My father, on the other hand, would be quite a different story. He's very opinionated and often doesn't know when to shut up, so I dread having him find out that I'm an agnostic and not going to church regularly."

 

It sounds like from your studies you would be more than a match for him. Fear is what is hobbling you in any confrontation with him. Then again, I know the frustration of arguing with a brick wall of superstition.

 

Anyway, welcome!

[ShallowByThyGame]

It must be hard to deconvert after you have started a family...hopefully your wife will not hold it against you.

 

In terms of meeting like minded people you will just have to be brave and look around, though your schedule is probably busy. If you can find a job closer to a large city you'd have more options, not sure how near Baltimore/DC you are. Your wife wouldn't complain if you made more money I'd think.

 

Concerning your daughters you may want to check out www.parentingbeyondbelief.com Even if your wife doesn't agree you may be able to help inject critical thinking skills. Be honest with your daughters about reality and they will always respect you more.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Wow it must be really hard to see your wife and daughters going to church while you no longer believe. I had a bit easier time because I utterly abandoned the faith around the same time that my parents divorced. My dad kept going to the church we grew up in, my mom stopped. The religious differences they developed enabled me to take a stand earlier than I would have otherwise. So your children, just having exposure to you, an unbeliever that they love, gives them a larger view of the world than you had. I just hope it doesn't put too hard a strain on your marriage. As they get older, definitely encourage critical thinking, thinking about things from different perspectives and open mindedness.

My husband's parents are a bit like you: the husband is a self described heathen, the wife is a Christian, albeit a very open minded liberal Christian. None of their kids are Church goers however, so apostasy seems hereditary.

Maybe you can convince your wife to go to a freethinker's meeting sometime. It might help her understand more where you are coming from.

[finally_done]

My wife and I don't talk about this stuff much anymore. She's even quit asking me on Sunday mornings if I'm going to church, because she knows I most likely won't. Now she's been talking about homeschooling our daughters, which scares the hell out of me. They already get indoctrinated at church, and I damn sure don't want them getting indoctrinated with religious school propaganda. On the plus side, our 7-year-old daughter is rather inquisitive, so I imagine that as she gets older we can have some interesting discussions.

 

 

I am new to these boards, and new to "official" agnosticism, but I want to encourage you in relation to homeschooling. I've been homeschooling for 18 years now, and my kids are turning out great. Despite the fact that they have been raised in fundamentalist churches, with a very legalistic father, and despite the fact that I am only now finally coming forward openly with my deconversion/unbelief, somehow my ongoing quiet skepticism through the years (all right, sometimes it did grow a little loud and sarcastic...) and my constant questioning of the way things are done (and why?) has given my children what they need to see there are many sides to issues and nothing should be accepted at face value. My oldest ones have gone on to college with large scholarships -- and once there, they have explored various forms of Christianity and other faiths. One is in grad school at Stanford, another is studying in DC, etc....

 

I have a feeling that in the years to come, as all of my kids hear more from me about my own journey and come to undertand that, as in everything else in life, searching for your answers yourself is the way to go, they will all be fine. Really, you are starting out early, so you should have no problem raising your daughters to be independent thinkers. Homeschooling works really well to encourage such attitudes actually. A large portion of homeschoolers are non-religious (or at least ex-Christian) and simply value freedom and independence more than rules and conformity. As a matter of fact, I have always homeschooled strictly to give my kids a superior education and to foster creativity, confidence, and leadership qualities in them. I've been very happy with how it's worked for us. Just because you homeschool doesn't mean you have to use the Bible for your curriculum -- there's a lot of great stuff available. ;-) To put yourself more at ease, maybe you should visit a secular or pagan homeschool forum. Let me know if you need help finding them.

 

JG -- finally done

[finally_done]

My wife and I don't talk about this stuff much anymore. She's even quit asking me on Sunday mornings if I'm going to church, because she knows I most likely won't. Now she's been talking about homeschooling our daughters, which scares the hell out of me. They already get indoctrinated at church, and I damn sure don't want them getting indoctrinated with religious school propaganda. On the plus side, our 7-year-old daughter is rather inquisitive, so I imagine that as she gets older we can have some interesting discussions.

 

 

I am new to these boards, and new to "official" agnosticism, but I want to encourage you in relation to homeschooling. I've been homeschooling for 18 years now, and my kids are turning out great. Despite the fact that they have been raised in fundamentalist churches, with a very legalistic father, and despite the fact that I am only now finally coming forward openly with my deconversion/unbelief, somehow my ongoing quiet skepticism through the years (all right, sometimes it did grow a little loud and sarcastic...) and my constant questioning of the way things are done (and why?) has given my children what they need to see there are many sides to issues and nothing should be accepted at face value. My oldest ones have gone on to college with large scholarships -- and once there, they have explored various forms of Christianity and other faiths. One is in grad school at Stanford, another is studying in DC, etc....

 

I have a feeling that in the years to come, as all of my kids hear more from me about my own journey and come to undertand that, as in everything else in life, searching for your answers yourself is the way to go, they will all be fine. Really, you are starting out early, so you should have no problem raising your daughters to be independent thinkers. Homeschooling works really well to encourage such attitudes actually. A large portion of homeschoolers are non-religious (or at least ex-Christian) and simply value freedom and independence more than rules and conformity. As a matter of fact, I have always homeschooled strictly to give my kids a superior education and to foster creativity, confidence, and leadership qualities in them. I've been very happy with how it's worked for us. Just because you homeschool doesn't mean you have to use the Bible for your curriculum -- there's a lot of great stuff available. ;-) To put yourself more at ease, maybe you should visit a secular or pagan homeschool forum. Let me know if you need help finding them.

 

JG -- finally done

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thanks for the welcomes and comments, everyone.

 

Don't you hate when they try to invent reasons for you being "wounded" or "angry at God"? Anything but the thought that the whole religion is as stupid as following Osiris or Zeus.

 

Yeah, it is pretty friggin' irritating. Yet I understand where they're coming from. When I was firm a believer, I couldn't fathom a Christian having logical reasons to turn around and reject Christianity.

 

It sounds like from your studies you would be more than a match for him. Fear is what is hobbling you in any confrontation with him. Then again, I know the frustration of arguing with a brick wall of superstition.

 

If he wasn't my father, then it would be easier. And, yes, I probably could tear him up on several points (I recently had to do that with a coworker who just wouldn't quit preaching his religion even after I told him a few times that I wasn't interested in hearing it). However, since he's my father and the type of father he is, I don't see much likelihood in any such debate panning out very well. I'll always be the child, so he's right and I'm wrong, period. Perhaps he would be more open-minded than I expect, but it would be quite a shock.

 

 

 

It must be hard to deconvert after you have started a family...hopefully your wife will not hold it against you.

 

Yeah. In a way I wish I had deconverted before marrying and having children, since I wouldn't have had as much religious baggage. On the other hand, overall my wife is a goodhearted woman and my daughters are great. My wife would rather I not be the new me, but she's handling it well and still shows affection.

 

In terms of meeting like minded people you will just have to be brave and look around, though your schedule is probably busy. If you can find a job closer to a large city you'd have more options, not sure how near Baltimore/DC you are. Your wife wouldn't complain if you made more money I'd think.

 

We're about a two-hour drive from the Baltimore/DC stretch. I don't think that the family would want to move to a larger city, and I do have a (seemingly) steady job right now. I may be able to make more money down there, but the cost of living is a bit higher too. All in all, we'll probably just stay where we are for a while.

 

Concerning your daughters you may want to check out www.parentingbeyondbelief.com Even if your wife doesn't agree you may be able to help inject critical thinking skills. Be honest with your daughters about reality and they will always respect you more.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to look into that site. And I certainly wouldn't be dishonest with my daughters. At their current ages, though, I've opted to just try to avoid any "God" discussions, because I don't want to cause confusion, but within another couple years I'm sure some of this stuff will probably come up.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Wow it must be really hard to see your wife and daughters going to church while you no longer believe. I had a bit easier time because I utterly abandoned the faith around the same time that my parents divorced. My dad kept going to the church we grew up in, my mom stopped. The religious differences they developed enabled me to take a stand earlier than I would have otherwise. So your children, just having exposure to you, an unbeliever that they love, gives them a larger view of the world than you had. I just hope it doesn't put too hard a strain on your marriage. As they get older, definitely encourage critical thinking, thinking about things from different perspectives and open mindedness.

 

It is a little difficult, knowing that much of my life was wasted because of early religious indoctrination, and now seeing my daughters get early religious indoctrination. At least their indoctrination isn't in quite as fundamentalist of a group as I was in, and they're only in church once a week instead of three times a week. But they're still getting quite a dose of superstition.

 

My husband's parents are a bit like you: the husband is a self described heathen, the wife is a Christian, albeit a very open minded liberal Christian. None of their kids are Church goers however, so apostasy seems hereditary.

Maybe you can convince your wife to go to a freethinker's meeting sometime. It might help her understand more where you are coming from.

 

My wife go to a freethinkers' meeting with atheists and agnostics? That would be interesting. If I start going to one, maybe I'll see if that's an option. Perhaps I can make a deal with my wife that I'll go to church as often as she goes to the freethinkers' meetings. Hmmm.... Thanks for the suggestion.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I am new to these boards, and new to "official" agnosticism, but I want to encourage you in relation to homeschooling. I've been homeschooling for 18 years now, and my kids are turning out great. Despite the fact that they have been raised in fundamentalist churches, with a very legalistic father, and despite the fact that I am only now finally coming forward openly with my deconversion/unbelief, somehow my ongoing quiet skepticism through the years (all right, sometimes it did grow a little loud and sarcastic...) and my constant questioning of the way things are done (and why?) has given my children what they need to see there are many sides to issues and nothing should be accepted at face value. My oldest ones have gone on to college with large scholarships -- and once there, they have explored various forms of Christianity and other faiths. One is in grad school at Stanford, another is studying in DC, etc....

 

I have a feeling that in the years to come, as all of my kids hear more from me about my own journey and come to undertand that, as in everything else in life, searching for your answers yourself is the way to go, they will all be fine. Really, you are starting out early, so you should have no problem raising your daughters to be independent thinkers. Homeschooling works really well to encourage such attitudes actually. A large portion of homeschoolers are non-religious (or at least ex-Christian) and simply value freedom and independence more than rules and conformity. As a matter of fact, I have always homeschooled strictly to give my kids a superior education and to foster creativity, confidence, and leadership qualities in them. I've been very happy with how it's worked for us. Just because you homeschool doesn't mean you have to use the Bible for your curriculum -- there's a lot of great stuff available. ;-) To put yourself more at ease, maybe you should visit a secular or pagan homeschool forum. Let me know if you need help finding them.

 

JG -- finally done

 

Thanks for the encouragement. My concern, though, is that my wife would obviously be the one doing the "teaching," since I work a full-time job and she stays home. I know she's interested in our neighbor's curriculum, and I know that our neighbor's reason for homeschooling is for their children to be taught by "biblical standards, not the government's." So, I think that what my wife is interested in is probably put out by a Christian organization. In fact, while our daughters have been in public school, a local church somehow worked out a deal where kids who have their parents' permission can leave school for an hour each week and go to the church for some Bible teaching, and my wife signed for our daughters to go (without consulting me, of course). Maybe I should talk to her more about it and find out exactly what her intentions are with homeschooling, but I suspect that religion would play a larger role than I would like.

[noob]

Welcome, Citsonga! You’ve landed in a good place at a good time in your life. This wonderful support group saw me through my “coming out” to my mother. I thought the world would come to an end when I told her, but I told her in January and we both survived!!! Thank you for sharing your extimony. It is very well written and an interesting read. Keep us updated as you work your way through the various relationship situations. And, good luck!

[finally_done]

Thanks for the encouragement. My concern, though, is that my wife would obviously be the one doing the "teaching," since I work a full-time job and she stays home. I know she's interested in our neighbor's curriculum, and I know that our neighbor's reason for homeschooling is for their children to be taught by "biblical standards, not the government's." So, I think that what my wife is interested in is probably put out by a Christian organization. In fact, while our daughters have been in public school, a local church somehow worked out a deal where kids who have their parents' permission can leave school for an hour each week and go to the church for some Bible teaching, and my wife signed for our daughters to go (without consulting me, of course). Maybe I should talk to her more about it and find out exactly what her intentions are with homeschooling, but I suspect that religion would play a larger role than I would like.

 

 

Well, look on the bright side -- she could be lobbying for a private Christian school! Money AND propaganda! I'm so glad I didn't have to deal with that -- my husband would have preferred it by far, but that was one of the ways I stood up to him (and was a BAD Christian wife for not submitting, btw).

 

I see what you mean though. I have it a little easier since *I* am the one doing the homeschooling. As a matter of fact, my husband has always been very much bothered that I am having more input into our kids than he and the church are, and though I've been a "Christian" most of the time, I have always opposed many things within the church, and (sometimes subtly, sometimes bluntly), I've shared several of those perspectives with the children. (And I never used Christian curriculum! I wanted the best!)

 

I think the reason the kids have soaked up some of my openmindedness and questioning approach over the years is that we have such strong relationships -- we're friends in the sense that we really are interested in each other and listen to each other. So I think you definitely can continue to have real input into your girls' way of thinking. Plan to be involved with them -- talk with them, have fun with them, take them on private dad/daughter outings, etc... probably stuff you already do -- when you *are* available. Don't worry about the time discrepancy -- they will value your attention and thoughts all the more because they are rare (in comparison to mom's) and special.

 

The fact is that those of us who claw our way out of Christianity at a later date, in the middle of our established family life, are in a difficult situation. I could spend a lot of time beating myself up over the fact that I didn't listen to my gut and my brain much sooner, but I've already wasted enough of my life on this stuff, so now I'm just ready to be done with it. But that still leaves me - and you - with the fact that we have to compromise. The kids are going to have to hear how both parents believe at some point. Hopefully, hearing such differing viewpoints from the parents they love will help the children to understand that Christianity is NOT the ONLY way as it claims. (Of course, I'm hoping they take that thinking much farther, but it's their choice in the end.)

 

I sincerely wish the best for you as you discuss these issues with your wife, and I hope she *will* go with you to meetings and be open to hearing some of your views, and perhaps one day you'll be on the same page again. It must work out that way for some people, right? Maybe you. ;-) For me, there's no such hope, so I have different choices to make soon...

 

JG -- finally_done

[★ Citsonga ★]

The fact is that those of us who claw our way out of Christianity at a later date, in the middle of our established family life, are in a difficult situation. I could spend a lot of time beating myself up over the fact that I didn't listen to my gut and my brain much sooner, but I've already wasted enough of my life on this stuff, so now I'm just ready to be done with it.

 

Yeah, I have often wondered how different my life would have been had I realized how ridiculous religion is before I was in this family situation. Unfortunately for me, it wasn't even a matter of not listening to "my gut and my brain sooner," because I was so brainwashed that when we got married and started our family I had no doubts at all about Christianity. I honestly thought it was absolutely true. Thankfully logic and reason eventually took over.

 

But that still leaves me - and you - with the fact that we have to compromise. The kids are going to have to hear how both parents believe at some point. Hopefully, hearing such differing viewpoints from the parents they love will help the children to understand that Christianity is NOT the ONLY way as it claims. (Of course, I'm hoping they take that thinking much farther, but it's their choice in the end.)

 

Well, they'll certainly have to hear my perspective at some point. So far, though, I've tried not to "rock the boat," so I haven't said much. I would probably need to write a letter to my parents about my rejection of Christianity first, simply because if I tried to talk reasonably about this stuff with my children, they'd probably eventually make a comment that would disturb my parents (or my wife's parents). I'm already a bit concerned about what kind of reaction I'd get if the kids commented around my parents that I haven't been going to church. My father would probably practically go ballistic.

 

I sincerely wish the best for you as you discuss these issues with your wife, and I hope she *will* go with you to meetings and be open to hearing some of your views, and perhaps one day you'll be on the same page again. It must work out that way for some people, right? Maybe you. ;-)

 

I'm not holding my breath for my wife to come around on this stuff. For a while we had quite a few discussions about problems with the faith, and she just didn't seem too interested in the logistics of it all. She said I over-analyzed things. She has an emotional attachment to her faith that supersedes logic and reason, and that's just they way she is.

 

That being said, I guess I could eventually be surprised. I mean, after all, there was a time when there was no way that I would leave the faith either. Even my wife, who obviously knows me best, would have never envisioned my rejection of Christianity. I was very hard-core in my belief that it was true.

 

For me, there's no such hope, so I have different choices to make soon...

 

I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully things will work out for the best in the long run.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Welcome, Citsonga! You’ve landed in a good place at a good time in your life. This wonderful support group saw me through my “coming out” to my mother. I thought the world would come to an end when I told her, but I told her in January and we both survived!!! Thank you for sharing your extimony. It is very well written and an interesting read. Keep us updated as you work your way through the various relationship situations. And, good luck!

 

Thanks. I'm glad that things worked out alright between you and your mother.

 

I'm actually not overly concerned about this issue with my mother. I mean, sure, she'll be disappointed, but I *think* she'll also be understanding. With me, my father is the one I'm really concerned about. He's the one who's really narrow-minded and doesn't know when to shut up. I mean, he can be so bad that even when I was a Christian I was never fully comfortable around him, and now that I'm *gasp* on the other side, all hell could break loose.

 

But, I suppose there's a possibility that the situation between my father and myself may turn out like you and your mother. It seems like "the whole world would come to an end," but maybe he would react differently than I expect.

 

My parents may be coming back out for a visit over Labor Day weekend, and we plan to go out there over Thanksgiving. I don't know if I should do the difficult task of writing them a letter now or just wait until after the holidays. If I wait until the end of the year, then there would be more time for it to soak in before we see each other again. I don't know. I am sick of trying to keep it undercover, but I also don't have much ambition to start a potential "war" over religion.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Just a quick little update. I just signed up for a Freethinkers Meetup group and plan to attend a meetup on the 25th.

[★ Citsonga ★]

OK, I thought I'd share a few updates.

 

Freethinkers meetup: This was canceled in July, due to too many members being on vacation. It would have been convenient for me to go then for my first time, since the wife and kids were away at church camp and I wouldn't have had to have explained where I was going. The next meetup is scheduled for August 25, which is my mother's birthday, but I may still be able to swing it.

 

Homeschooling: My wife and I finally had a little talk a few nights ago, where we discussed the pros and cons. She said that the curriculum she wanted to use is not put out by a Christian organization, so that's a plus. She did acknowledge, though, that in science she wanted to teach that the world is "God's creation." I clarified that I didn't want religious indoctrination brought into the homeschooling, and I pointed out that science is neither for or against God, that God is a separate issue and should remain a separate issue.

 

Another negative would be the more limited social interaction, but the girls do have friends already and they could continue to meet other friends through those friends, so that may not be so bad. Also, since my wife would be doing most of the teaching, I'm concerned about how she's sometimes not very logical in certain things. But for the most part I think that can be overcome.

 

On the other hand, some positives are that the girls can be taught at the pace they're ready to learn with. And if someone goes berserk at school and starts killing kids, our children wouldn't be there. So, I basically told my wife that if she doesn't use the schooling as a platform for religious indoctrination, then I wouldn't object to her trying it out (the kids want to try homeschooling anyway).

 

Spousal relations: During the discussion about homeschooling, obviously our own differences in perspectives could not be avoided. We neither one got angry and/or yelled, but I was very firm in stating my objection to religious brainwashing. She brought up the fact that I had made a personal commitment to Jesus years ago, to which I pointed out that that was based on a worldview that I had been brainwashed with. I actually called it "brainwashed bullshit," which is the first time she's heard me use a "swear word," and that pretty much ended the conversation, since she didn't like that I said that. Since that discussion, though, everything's been pretty normal between us.

 

Anyway, I did just send my wife an email. She's in bed, so she hasn't seen it yet, but here's what I said:

 

Carolyn,

 

I do want to apologize if I was offensive in my comments a few nights ago. I was not trying to be harsh, even if it was a bit firm.

 

As you know, I had a very strong faith for years and didn't begin questioning it until I was 29. You are also aware of how I went through a very depressing time as I struggled to come to grips with what I could find believable. My searching was not taken lightly.

 

You should be able to understand that something that is true doesn't have anything to lose from being scrutinized. I fully realized this, and therefore wasn't afraid to question things, because truth has nothing to fear from an honest search for truth.

 

What my search led me to, though, was a very firm conviction that the worldview I was programmed with from childhood is false. For clarification, though, when I said that it was brainwashing, I did not mean to imply that my parents, grandparents, Sunday school teachers and such were intentionally misleading me, but that what they presented me with as absolute truth simply is not true, and therefore the end result is essentially the same as deliberate brainwashing.

 

I honestly do not see any possibility of me ever believing in Christianity again. I hope you can see that I, as one who was previously a firm believer and who has always had a desire for absolute truth, am not being closed-minded in the matter. It's just that the logic and evidence against Christianity have become insurmountable, so much so that it seems extremely unlikely that the holes could ever be patched up. In reality, it took open-mindedness for me to be able to think outside the box and go through a paradigm shift from what I had always believed before.

 

I still love you, and it has never been my intent to drive a wedge between us. On the other hand, I can't be dishonest and pretend to follow something that I simply (and strongly) do not believe. I certainly don't want anything to break us apart, so there's no need to fear anything like that. What I would like, though, is for you to at least be open-minded enough to accept my stance against religion as an honest, informed and well-intentioned perspective. Beyond that, a nice extra would be for you to also seek truth for truth's sake, regardless of whether or not it fits the worldview you have been programmed with from childhood.

 

I do not wish to bombard you with things, but I did come across a video series on YouTube this week that I thought was put together rather well. These videos don't encompass every objection I have with religion, but I think they are a good starting point and would be beneficial for you to check out. You don't have to watch them all at once, since there's a lot there. You can check out one or two at a time and think about the logic and reasoning behind her presentations. Anyway, here they are:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With love,

Brad

[★ Citsonga ★]

Just another little update.

 

I did finally go to my first Freethinkers Meetup, and it was refreshing. There was some good discussion, and afterward I hung around and chatted with a couple other guys for a while. I'll definitely be going back, as I don't have anyone else to have this kind of conversation with.

 

My wife has not even mentioned the email I sent her. I'm sure she's read it, because she keeps up with her email and would not miss reading one from me, but I don't know if she's watched the videos or not.

 

Our daughters did go back to public school. My wife basically decided to let them start another school year and see if they still want to go or want to be homeschooled. My wife seems really concerned about homeschooling once they get to 6th grade, which will be in two years for the oldest.

 

I still haven't bothered telling my family that I no longer believe. The other day, though, my mother sent me an article talking about Ben & Jerry's ice cream temporarily changing the name of their Chubby Hubby ice cream to Hubby Hubby in honor of gay rights, and she said that she wouldn't be buying their ice cream. I simply replied that I've never bought their ice cream anyway, since it's expensive, but that I personally wouldn't make a big deal about this issue. She didn't respond to that, but she's probably at least getting the perspective that I am not as conservative as they are.

 

Also, I've become more interested in reading books again. Most of the books I've read in the past have been Christian books. After deconverting, I've only read a couple books dealing with religion ("The Jesus Puzzle" and "The Bible Unearthed"), as most of what I have read on the subject has been online with message boards and articles. I've been interested in Dan Barker for a while, so I just ordered "Godless" the other day. Also, I have had a couple Bart Ehrman books for a while, so I finally pulled out "Lost Christianities" and started reading it. I'm going to try to do a little more book reading for a while. It will be slower than I'd like, what with work and family, as well as other responsibilities and hobbies, but I'm definitely going to make it a point to not wait for long gaps between books.