Church

[Abiyoyo]

I may believe in God, Jesus, and the movement of Christ; but I am highly skeptic of church influences and culture. I have found church is a social event entangled around a Who's Who of delegates of people overflowing in church issued righteousness. This issued righteousness is primarily based around 'self-disposition' in IMO.

 

Anyway, they may have been better suited in the rant section, but felt it may fire some discussion. Today, I was told that I was basically being punished by God because I was not attending church with the only bit of truth in my eyes to it coming when he mentioned that this stricken state was because we are not attending any church.

 

I was reminded of Job, then felt the urge to call and tell him he was not quite right in that 'judgment' to me; and then became more irritated to where I couldn't even call when I began to think of all the messy situations that have happened of recent, and the thought that God is invoking these disasters in my life, my family, is atrocious, crude, and out of touch with reality.

 

I could just as Biblically say that God is testing my faith, or that Satan is attacking me and my family; yet, here, I have our youth pastor saying that God is indeed punishing us because we are not going to church regularly. What about Job? Where was his church? Wasn't Job setting thought to be in the same time of Abraham????

 

Maybe I should build an alter, kill a few birds, rams, and then invite the church over for a peace offering or something. What are your thoughts?

 

or,....maybe I should invite them to confession, as maybe I need to confess my sins, ...since I am Catholic by facts, and havent confessed since around 1992, ....which means I am hellbound anyhow.

 

Or,....maybe we could visit my old fire breathing, evangelical, pastor who can cast my demons out that are causing me to not go to church????

 

Anyhow, ......I think I have a new conquest, ...I want to become a offical member of every denomination of Christianity that will let me ; then, I can just tell them to speak to my other pastor about it Maybe they could go get a cup of coffee, and talk about my soul.

 

 

I want to add also that in my subtopic, I said 'What's the point'. I do see the point of church in a vast perspective within Christianity, but I do not believe that it as most church people view it, which is, you don't go to church, you don't love Jesus...I disagree with that logic.

[hereticzero]

My thoughts are:

 

This is a Christ movement.

 

 

Because man never fell from grace, you have nothing to confess. Welcome to the real world and take the red pill.

[OnceConvinced]

Church leaders are always going to put you on a guilt trip if you don't go to church. As long as you're there, the church numbers are larger, the church looks more successful and more than likely they're gonna have more people to do the work they want done and more money in the church bank accounts. The more wealth they can show off, the more popular they appear.

 

From a Christian perspective, although I was a regular church attender, I didn't see any bibical laws that said you must be in church. I see rules and advice about praying, worshiping, studying the word, but never about attending a church. The early Christians never had churches, they met in people's houses. So if you're regularly meeting up with other Christians, maybe even doing a little bible study, prayer or even just chatting about God, then you should be fine.

 

From my perspective now it's obvious to me that the only reasons to go to church is have your faith validated by others and to have continuous indoctronisation. They don't want you thinking for themselves either, they want you there listening to their doctrones. Without the validation and the indoctronation, you're gonna start questioning things and we all know how dangerous questioning God or the bible is to one's faith. Once you start doing that, it's only a short time before you realise what a crock it all is.

 

Fellow Christians have been indoctronated themselves into believing church to be important. It's there to "recharge your batteries", to allow teaching, to allow ministering and fellowship. They are taught to believe that these things are just so important and in many ways they are, because those are the things that tend to build up your faith. Should faith need to be built up in that way? No way. If God and the Holy Spirit is everything it's cracked up to be there should be no need for any of that stuff. The whole thing is just a big charade.

[Shyone]

First, that was a hurtful thing for your pastor to say. It's just wrong.

 

Regardless of the theological justification for your problems, people should work together as humans first to reason through problems, not throw accusations and recriminations. Maybe when things turn around, and the work has been done, the pastor could say, "Now will you come back to church?"

 

As far as church, people who work alone to try and understand theology risk being outflanked because they haven't been taught the latest excuses apologies for the problems of Christianity. You risk developing an unsupportable theology and being "led astray."

 

Maybe being in a church could provide some with emotional or even financial support that might not be there otherwise. I attribute this to human kindness, but you can thank god for your neighbor's advice or money if that seems appropriate somehow. If that's not happening in your church, maybe you're in the wrong church.

 

For the pot luck dinners, donuts and company, I could almost go to church, but I think too much to sit and listen to hollow rhetoric and distortions. Plus, when I found myself talking to myself instead of "praying" I felt like a hypocrite, but that's just me.

 

Above all, follow your heart. You may have reasons for what you do that you are not aware of. Set your priorities, be sure they are correct, discuss them with your loved ones, and then dive in.

 

Things don't always turn out the way we expect or want, but there is almost always something you can do to shape your future.

 

Does this sound a bit like Disiderata?

[Godtastic]

The only benefit that I see when Christians are in church, especially on Sunday, is that it's easier for me to get a table at the local pancake house. Keep it up folks!

[Shawn Truesdell]

Of course they want you to go to Chuch. If you don't go to Church then they cant collect your offering. If they don't collect your offering that is less money in the Church coffers. The less money they have the fewer brain washing videos they can buy for Sunday School, less money to lobby the government and local politicians to stifle religious and personal freedoms, less money to interfere with local school programs, less money for the pastor etc.

 

They need your money to exert more control on others, if you aren't wiling to do it willingly they will use every means of psychological and emotional manipulation to get their way. Get out now and join us!

[oddbird1963]

The sun has long set on my caring what church people have to say about anything. To me churches are just a disappointing socioeconomic component of culture and society.

 

However, I know the toll that thoughtless, judgmental, presumptuous and self-righteous people within the churches takes on people of sincerity and good will is something awful.

 

I'm sorry for the rough times you are going through and hope you find your way to peace and fulfillment.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Does the vast perspective within Christianity that you see regarding the church's beneficial role help you in your personal walk?

.......

If it is mixed, how do the pros weigh against the cons?

..........

Are some or their core beliefs different from your core beliefs? If so, how does that affect you in worship with them, in growth?

 

Phanta

 

The vast perspective I regard as beneficial from the church in that this role can be viewed more IMO as a validation of the prophecy of Christ than anything. I see the existence of the Church in general as a literal interpretation of what Christ said, and also I will add that I see the RCC as the original, or the Rock as it is said. I see the church in general as the 'light' to the Gentiles, the veiling of God to all people. I believe between, money, power, stature, and human nature; it turned into all different scenario, which we have today, money covered up with God.

 

I see many aspects though, and I don't think none are outside the will of God; yet I do think many have been misconstrued and went wayward from the original agenda of the model church, even by Paul's standards.

 

Their core beliefs vary a great deal, each by their own denomination, from the church runners, screamers, filling of the Holy Spirit, to drinking grape juice and crackers, to real wine and wafers things, to ritualistic of a Old World, to a modernized rock band jamming Jesus Freak. The flavors are different, but the core is usually the same, ....to me anyhow. That seems to be the problem though. Depending on the individual, the message, intent, doctrine, demeanor can all become out of tune with that particular denomination and possibly the Bible all together.

 

Their are many protests groups that expound on certain parts of the Bible, but I may not observe as pertinent. Most sermons I attend in the Protestant group always have the alter call at the end of the sermon, and I don't necessarily think that is very important. I will explain. I see it as a hopeless circle, one in which the mind is just playing tricks on itself and you, the receiver of the Word. One preaches on a level, judging to a general audience, and telling God's values, commands, etc; yet, the kicker is at the end, ..something that has bothered me since day one. The ones that are convinced to come down to the alter, the whole public awareness thing. There are so many structures and mistranslated things floating around and everybody wants to be a 'prophet', a 'messiah', reader of the heart, soul, and minds. This is how I feel in many ways, yet they read by appearances for the most part.

 

I can't say though that I have not had the miraculous happen where someone of this gift has told me something in warning, etc; but, my one experience was outside of church, go figure

 

One may be a hero from the church, that I feel like God has told to come help me, speak to me, give me a word, convict me, etc; and this has happened to me many times, and probably why I don't totally disagree with the church as a weekly fellowship type community of sort, BUT, the ones that come with other agendas, notions, rhetoric, misinformed ideas, untouched as far as me seeing something, yet they claim authority of God. These are the ones that keep me skeptic. At the moment, these are found at my church to some degree. In that same accord, there are elders, and even youth that I have spoke with in amazement and wonder in regard to their core values.

 

Honestly, Phanta, I see it like this. There are three types of people. Those that live for church, those that live for God, and those that live for God and attend church. The last are usually the sacred that give me that warm welcome feeling, the ones that make me try it at least all over again, until that is, a the first type starts getting involved, then it just makes me upset again.

 

I feel that right now in my life, I try to pertain to the second type, definitely not the first, or the third, yet committed to God, so that would put me in the second group. The only worry I have is that the third group, who I highly respect. I worry for them seeing the bureaucracy of the church in a very discouraging way, causing them to not believe at all; but, this usually isn't the case, usually, the first type are the ones that I would worry would crack if the chips fell. I may say that in ignorance though, just because I am in group two, and have been through hell and back to still be standing. Maybe, I am no better than them really, except I tote my own horn for the second group.

[chefranden]

"Church, what's the point?"

 

Shame on you!

 

Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some,

but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

[chefranden]

The vast perspective I regard as beneficial from the church in that this role can be viewed more...except I tote my own horn for the second group.

 

In other words you see it all as bullshit, but you are going to believe it anyway.

 

Here is my advice to you. Start your own Church. Then you will be able to worship in fellowship without all the hypocrisy. You obviously know what Christians ought to be like, yet you just sit in the corner and moan. Screw that, get off your ass and collect the true believers into fellowship and common cause.

[Mike D]

Why would a Christian ask ex-Christians what the point of church is?

 

The obvious answer is that all churches, mosques, synagogues, etc., are nothing more than religion based community/social organizations/clubs that are funded by donations.

 

Since all of these entities are centered around middle eastern mythology written by delusional desert dwellers in the bronze-age, that will be the source for each individual club to dictate to you how you'll be expected to conform to their particular rules, code of conduct, etc., if you want to be accepted. If you don't like how they interpret their particular rule book (ie bible, torah, koran, vedas, etc.), or they don't like you, then you'll have to find another club.

 

Pretty simple...

[Abiyoyo]

"Church, what's the point?"

 

Shame on you!

 

Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some,

but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

You should have bold the part right before that' let us consider one another to stir up love and good works'. What about Jesus warnings of 'gatherings'? Does church stir up love and good works? I have heard for years here that it doesn't, and experienced it not to in my own church attendance. Not to say it doesn't, but does it in the fullest to what the Hebrew writer meant it to be..?

[Abiyoyo]

The vast perspective I regard as beneficial from the church in that this role can be viewed more...except I tote my own horn for the second group.

 

In other words you see it all as bullshit, but you are going to believe it anyway.

 

Here is my advice to you. Start your own Church. Then you will be able to worship in fellowship without all the hypocrisy. You obviously know what Christians ought to be like, yet you just sit in the corner and moan. Screw that, get off your ass and collect the true believers into fellowship and common cause.

 

I guess I'm scared it would turn into bureaucracy, whether in my life, or my successor. I believe everything begins with a bit of truth to it, but over time, usually turns into whatever the human mind wants it to be. Everything has a root, substance, core value, to only be widened through time. I see the church in this scenario, started with a truth, or core; widened to what it is today, because the simple truth is that the leader left 2000 years ago, and Christians have done the approving, appointing, and judging since.

 

I find it funny that Jesus never said, ''build a great empire, destroy all the pagan gods, kill those who break gods commands, etc. This is a good example as well. We have Jesus, then the disciples, the Paul's movement, then the RCC and the rest of the world in Christian domination. Now, Jesus was himself, not trying to war with anyone or setup an earthly kingdom in his life, preaching, healing people. Then we have the disciples, confused, doing what they may to bring Christ into relevance to Romans and Jews, having a oneness in group and following, preaching and spreading the word about Christ. Next, we have Paul, who also accompanying a oneness, but more in a oneness of the evangelical, the individual one, bringing the scattered believers to gather and commune with God, believe in Christ, mostly outside of Judaism. He setup the first non-Jewish Christian churches, and also declared a certain way of living with each church, for each occasion. I have always seen Paul more of an evangelist than a leader of churches, a man that basically preached to the gatherings at remote places that had either heard from him about Christ or others, and needed guidance of sort. Furthermore, we have the RCC, which became the official religion in its day, and that day changed the world as we know it. Christianity became judgment on earth at this point IMO, spreading of course to Protestantism, and later churches today which execute righteous judgment.

 

I believe the true message of Christ was meant for the individual, willed for the millions, and in the end, given to anyone that cared to have it, abundantly.

[Abiyoyo]

Why would a Christian ask ex-Christians what the point of church is?

 

 

 

I have another good question. Why would an Ex-Christian ask a Christian why, he, a Christian, would ask another Ex-Christian what the point of church is and then,.. that Ex-Christian answers the question...

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

The obvious answer is that all churches, mosques, synagogues, etc., are nothing more than religion based community/social organizations/clubs that are funded by donations.

 

Since all of these entities are centered around middle eastern mythology written by delusional desert dwellers in the bronze-age, that will be the source for each individual club to dictate to you how you'll be expected to conform to their particular rules, code of conduct, etc., if you want to be accepted. If you don't like how they interpret their particular rule book (ie bible, torah, koran, vedas, etc.), or they don't like you, then you'll have to find another club.

 

Pretty simple...

 

Not really very simple, maybe to someone who sees it just as you state it. You seem to imply that they are all there own, no connections, all diverse in their own capacities; which sounds good when reading, but Does it really fit the bill?

 

Your answer was a simple one, but far from the reality of it. One hates the other, or one says the other is hellbound, or one says that a few are hellbound, or one doesn't help the other because they are 'different'.

 

Comparing the interactions of Christian denominations with what Jesus preached, or even by Paul's standards, anyone can see the complexity of the divine within the denomination.

 

Within the ideals of Christian worship, there are theologies for different denominations, that teach in context with that denominations doctrine.

 

But, actually, I think you said it right, saying it is like any other 'club', and I believe that is the problem, people within Christianity are apart of clubs and think of it in that manner. I remember a few circumstances where I have been around church people and they spoke of how they didn't like this pastor, or didn't like this or that, or how they searched for the church they felt good or comfortable at. It's become a social events. But, getting back to the OP, that is the point Mike D, that the church today is more like a social event than anything, and I contend that possibly, it was never suppose to get this way, but it did, and was already expected to be this way, fulfilling God's will; yet truly not what God intended to be 'righteous' as church leaders try to convince many the opposite.

[Abiyoyo]

It sounds like you feel you gain benefit from some fellowship Abi. The group 3 people. "the ones that make me try it at least all over again,". They help you spiritually? Or did you mean they help you feel better about church?

 

If the former, what about starting a small house fellowship of like-minded people, no leaders, no advertising, no alter calls, no money except what goes to those in need, each on his or her own path, supported in discussion and fellowship and food, but centered around Christ?

 

If the latter, it sounds like an endless cycle of disappointment. Bottom line, their churches are not for you. Yours is another path.

 

Phanta

 

i agree, and have thought of it before. I think that even if I did do this though, the first ones would either be devote Christians with like minds, or people looking to be apart of a new church formation, which would make me feel that they truly want the possible social side of it, but more at home than if they just walked into a church and shook hands with everyone while they begin to go through the motions of becoming a 'permanent' person of that church. Some people I believe think the less the better, possibly being either more effective, knowledgeable, experienced, or just makes them feel better to be ' one of the first's' in this new formation. Then, the like minded ones, the ones that truly want to be apart of a like minded church so to speak. What happens when we have a disagreement? I see that as problematic, a working, beginning of a bureaucracy, the first disagreement. Then, we have to work through this disagreement, to come to our like minded magnetism again so we feel okay.

 

Honestly, I would rather just be a loner I guess, be apart of any random church, but not have a leader of the church tell me something crude to this nature, or judge me when I do go. I think church is great, and I am excited to go, and sing, and hear the message; but, ..when church gets to wondering if I know Jesus, if I live right, if I believe what is important to you, and then raise an eyebrow when I don't, then it becomes not so great of an experience. BUT, it works, and thats why they do it, because guilt trips work for those that have emotions.

 

Honest truth here Phanta, before I became religious, I was pretty emotionless, especially toward church, and the times I remember being at church, around church people, etc, the message came across as 'get saved, be happy in Jesus' instead of conform to our church and God will be happy.

 

I see the trick, and was just thinking the other day of the difference Before I was saved, all I heard about was getting saved, living for Jesus, having a relationship with God, his protection, etc etc. Never did I hear, God is punishing you?? It was, God will protect you, be with you, help you through those times etc. So, now,....He is punishing me.... Okay. I wasn't saved in church, didn't go to the alter, make a public announcement, and, ...honestly, I really think that most church people see that as not from God in the Protestant circles. Sad that someone can't commune with God on their own, visit their place they fellowship with, without the fellowship judging them and causing them to not want to fellowship with them at all. Lucky for them, I am a forgiving person.

[Mike D]

Not really very simple, maybe to someone who sees it just as you state it. You seem to imply that they are all there own, no connections, all diverse in their own capacities; which sounds good when reading, but Does it really fit the bill?

From the perspective of an ex-christian it really is simple. At least for this ex-christian it is.

 

All religions operate the same - they each have their own respective holy books, and their own respective places of worship, and they all have the same problem with multiple denominations due to multiple interpretations of their ancient myths. Many scoff at each other, accuse each other of being "false teachers", infidels, etc. So the problem you are experiencing isn't exclusive to just Christianity.

 

Comparing the interactions of Christian denominations with what Jesus preached, or even by Paul's standards, anyone can see the complexity of the divine within the denomination.

Complexity? What's funny is the Bible itself says "god is not the author of confusion". But based on the number of demoninations of Christianity in the world, it's obvious there are a lot of confused people out there. The only Christians who aren't confused are the True Christians ™ who have the truth. I suppose your job as a Christian is to narrow down who has the truth, and that will be the right church for you. I guess the easiest way to approach that, is just go from church to church and ask the pastor if his church are True Christians ™ or False Teachers ™.

 

See? Simple.

[Shyone]

 

I believe the true message of Christ was meant for the individual, willed for the millions, and in the end, given to anyone that cared to have it, abundantly.

When you take it upon yourself to judge the actions of the church, decide what the message of Jesus was supposed to be, and find yourself at odds with what you have been taught, I think you may realize that you know good and evil independent of the Church or the bible.

 

It doesn't take a church to tell you how to live or what to do, and the bible, whatever its inspirational value, has some things in it that are less than useful.

 

All philosophies have good and bad because they all come from man. Your job on earth is to form your own code to live by. Take the best from wherever you find inspiration and don't be mislead by people who claim to speak for God.

 

Life isn't a game of "Simon Says."

[Shyone]

But based on the number of demoninations of Christianity in the world

I like the way you spelled that.

[R. S. Martin]

 

Your answer was a simple one, but far from the reality of it. One hates the other, or one says the other is hellbound, or one says that a few are hellbound, or one doesn't help the other because they are 'different'.

 

 

I have not been following your threads so I don't know your situation. Sorry for the bad luck you're having right now--hope it goes better soon. Concerning the religious situation, however, I fail to understand why you expect a lot of sympathy from exChristians. You are a Christian. This is EX-Christian.

 

If arguments about hell are important to you, obviously you believe hell exists. As an atheist, I don't believe in anything that is supernatural--beings or places.

 

You might want to Google ex-church-goer. Based on what I read in this thread, that fits you a whole lot better than exChristian at this point in your life.

[R. S. Martin]

But based on the number of demoninations of Christianity in the world

I like the way you spelled that.

 

Freudian slip of the--uh--keys I guess.

[Guest end3]

Well, I guess the dogs and cats and trees and mice could somehow hold church as they do every day, but you have to ask yourself if we label something God, whether it be the unnoticable, yet wonderful communion between ourselves, or the outright profession that God came in the flesh, then wouldn't the point be that we are created for just that communion?

 

How about an amen from the creation?

[Mike D]

But based on the number of demoninations of Christianity in the world

I like the way you spelled that.

Hmm interesting. I guess I can't really blame that one on being a typo, now can I?

 

Ohoh then there's only one explanation - I must be possessed by Satan

 

666

[Abiyoyo]

 

Your answer was a simple one, but far from the reality of it. One hates the other, or one says the other is hellbound, or one says that a few are hellbound, or one doesn't help the other because they are 'different'.

 

 

I have not been following your threads so I don't know your situation. Sorry for the bad luck you're having right now--hope it goes better soon. Concerning the religious situation, however, I fail to understand why you expect a lot of sympathy from exChristians. You are a Christian. This is EX-Christian.

 

If arguments about hell are important to you, obviously you believe hell exists. As an atheist, I don't believe in anything that is supernatural--beings or places.

 

You might want to Google ex-church-goer. Based on what I read in this thread, that fits you a whole lot better than exChristian at this point in your life.

 

I am not implying anything you mentioned here. I just posted it as a topic for those who wanted to participate. I post here for many reasons, but I believe you and I both know that if I were to post this in any Christian ^TM forum, ; it most likely would be deleted, and I would be banned.

 

If you don't care to participate, then you don't have to. And, if you read the OP, I still attend church to a degree, am just having problems with my current church, and also have general issues with the church and what the role of the church they claim to have authority over in the individuals life and belief.

[Abiyoyo]

Well, I guess the dogs and cats and trees and mice could somehow hold church as they do every day, but you have to ask yourself if we label something God, whether it be the unnoticable, yet wonderful communion between ourselves, or the outright profession that God came in the flesh, then wouldn't the point be that we are created for just that communion?

 

How about an amen from the creation?

 

There are two ways we could look at this though. As I said earlier, I do believe God willed the church to be in its current status. I believe God willed that because of how we are already as people, we are needy, emotional, dependent, social creatures. If it wasn't church, it would've been the calf that Aaron made at the bottom of the mountain, or in todays time, maybe NASA, America' president, that one guy who levitates, or whatever cool thing looked like it should be worshiped. Without the gathering of a certain amount of souls, God would be invisible. But, I do not feel the church constitutes righteous on earth, nor do I think it is the authority of God on earth.

 

Some Biblical support for my view can be shown by the groups representing God's church. Abraham, Samuel, David (in his youth), Elijah (other than Elisha) had no following, lived righteously as portrayed in the Bible. Lot lived righteously within the area of others, yet the rest had turned from God as a group. Moses, led Israel in it's formation to become a disobedient group of people as well. After Israel's formation as portrayed in the Bible, the leader of Israel was who administered judgment on the people, then it changed to just the prophets through divine interaction, and finally, to the prophets predicting the fall and destruction of Israel, and the coming of Christ to restore the nation, or to restore God within that nation.

 

See, Israel wanted a leader like the rest of the groups around them according to the Bible, so they contended with Samuel to give them a king, and of course, Saul enters the picture, but many people forget what God said to Samuel and to them about what that king will end up doing to them. We, even today, still want our king, so we go and find the great pastors, the lively or suitable church, strong church, big, or righteously upright, all whichever to our own likening. The flavor of the church is more of the scenery of the land we what to live on, and usually the pastor is our king, the one who brings us that righteous judgment, the Word of Christ. He is our representative, yet Christ should be that king, alone, even if we do not chose an earthly representative or land so to speak to dwell with our God. I also think that choosing to make Christ our King, and belief in him alone is enough.

 

I think the point of Christ was to throne him King to anyone that wanted to be with the God of Israel, also satisfying that human need of a physical king.

 

Maybe those that need church really have a lack of faith in Jesus?

 

Is the glass half empty, or half full?