Why Are People So Gullible?

[Bobby]

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

[★ Citsonga ★]

@citisonga: ma apologies on that, my bad, will read the rules and get to adhere to them, simply put, was putting forward a different point of view.

 

The "Testimonies of Former Christians" and "Ex-Christian Life" forums do not allow proselytizing. The thread has now been moved to the "Colosseum" forum (which is more befitting of the subject matter anyway), so say whatever you wish (but realize that we're not gullible and won't be convinced to go back to our former beliefs unless you can present a much stronger case than the professional apologists have, which is highly doubtful).

 

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

 

Christianity definitely isn't absolute truth, that's for sure....

[Shyone]

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

It would depend on the context.

 

True and False can be judgements regarding the veracity of a statement or claim. When there is evidence supporting one position or another, then others can only evaluate the evidence. Assuming there is an underlying truth, then the only thing missing is the evidence.

 

Did he push his wife down the stairs, or did she trip? With contradictory evidence, perhaps the only one that really knows is the husband.

 

When evaluating claims, science tends to be provisional. There are things that can be absolutely shown to be incorrect, things that can be shown to be absolutely correct, and things that are not yet known or fully evaluated.

 

Definitions can be important. Does the sun rise in the east? Of course! Except that the sun is "stationary" and the earth rotates. So, given that, does the sun rise in the east? Sure it does as long as everyone understands what is meant. Likewise, speaking of something that is completely undefined is meaningless. No truthful statement can be made about an undefined set of circumstances. "Does Oigosmoi sometimes eat foimeos?" If Oigosmoi is defined so that no one could prove it's existence, then one cannot say whether Oigosmoi eats foimeos or not.

 

And what is foimeos?

 

Wiki has a feature known as disambiguation. It would be helpful in some circumstances if that automatically popped up in conversations.

 

Does Zeus exist?

 

Do you mean the lead character of the Greek pantheon, the statue of said character, the character in plays by ancient Greek playrights, or the actual independent living being that the character of Zeus represents?

 

Does Luke Skywalker exist?

 

And so on.

 

The confusion about fictional characters only becomes important when someone claims that they exist in reality.

 

So what is truth? Things we can prove to be true. What is false? Things we can prove to be false (or illogical). There are somethings that may be undefined, and no one can say if an undefined object or quantity exists in truth.

 

Somehow, I doubt this answers your question which is not really a question, but rather a means to indtroduce an agenda.

[agnosticator]

My wife is a hardcore (although not as hardcore as she used to be), tongue-speaking fundy. Her rationale is that giving to "ministries" is giving to gawd. When I tried to exercise my "head of the house" status (her notion, not mine) and forbid her giving to televangelists, she wept for days on end, "pouring her heart out to gawd." I have been caring for her 24-7 for more than a year since she suffered a myocardial infarction and hemorrhagic stroke simultaneously, so I was greatly concerned about the impact on her health of such an extreme emotional state. So, naturally, I relented.

 

She even sent money to the reincarnated Jimmy Swaggart. I swear to Bob.

 

Wow! You really are between "a rock and a hard place"! I'm sorry your wife and you have to go through this terrible illness. You really love her immensely to give up the money for her emotional health, especially to christian charlatans.

 

My father and my ex would fall for shit like this, against my protests. With them it was the naive trust they had in people of authority, and also professionals. They would say I was being negative or cynical. Ah, the life of a skeptic! We should be more positive and trusting of people with our hard-earned dollars! Give and ye shall receive a hundred fold!

[Snakefoot]

My wife is a hardcore (although not as hardcore as she used to be), tongue-speaking fundy. Her rationale is that giving to "ministries" is giving to gawd. When I tried to exercise my "head of the house" status (her notion, not mine) and forbid her giving to televangelists, she wept for days on end, "pouring her heart out to gawd." I have been caring for her 24-7 for more than a year since she suffered a myocardial infarction and hemorrhagic stroke simultaneously, so I was greatly concerned about the impact on her health of such an extreme emotional state. So, naturally, I relented.

 

She even sent money to the reincarnated Jimmy Swaggart. I swear to Bob.

 

Wow! You really are between "a rock and a hard place"! I'm sorry your wife and you have to go through this terrible illness. You really love her immensely to give up the money for her emotional health, especially to christian charlatans.

 

My father and my ex would fall for shit like this, against my protests. With them it was the naive trust they had in people of authority, and also professionals. They would say I was being negative or cynical. Ah, the life of a skeptic! We should be more positive and trusting of people with our hard-earned dollars! Give and ye shall receive a hundred fold!

My wife has a blind faith in just about anybody calling themselves "christian." Doesn't like it when you criticize them and point out the chartanism: "Touch not mine anointed," and all that.

 

I don't mind caring for her. I do love her, she is the mother of our children. You do what you gotta do and put up with what you must.

[oddbird1963]

I think the goal of the televangelists/television ministries and even televised church services is twofold:

 

1) Project credibility

2) Collect cash.

 

The televangelists/ television ministries create production values to fit their audience. The appeal that makes for the most viewers is: God cares about solving your financial, marital, or health crisis. These are the issues that hit us hardest at our point of fear. These are the areas where we face the greatest loss and are exposed to the greatest vulnerability. These ministries project credibility through their peacock clothing style, deep/sincere voices and testimonies that make their leaders seem like strong men and women of god who know what they are talking about and have experienced success using the very principles they preach. It's the APPEARANCE of credibility that matters, not so much the living a credible life of integrity that matters to viewers.

 

Televised church services may or may not create productions for the purpose of appealing to these points of fear, but the local churches that want to increase their membership will also try to hit on these points of fear and vulnerability.

 

The televangelists are more direct in their appeals for money. That is what they are after. That is their source of validation. That and the 'testimonies' they collect that indicate that they are reaching their targeted market.

 

Churches that televise their services may be more indirect with the 'collect' cash goal. They are more or less after 'butts in seats,' at the local church, but that eventually translates to more money.

 

So the element of fear and vulnerability are what makes these tv ministers thrive. If people were healthier, wealthier and more stable in their relationships, there would be little felt need for such ministries. The fear creates the gullibility. Well fed, healthy people will be less likely to be gullible.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to post my observations.

[agnosticator]

I don't mind caring for her. I do love her, she is the mother of our children. You do what you gotta do and put up with what you must.

 

You are proof that atheists are just as loving and moral as any god-believer could wish to be. Though with clearer thought processes. I wish you both the best!

[Snakefoot]

I don't mind caring for her. I do love her, she is the mother of our children. You do what you gotta do and put up with what you must.

 

You are proof that atheists are just as loving and moral as any god-believer could wish to be. Though with clearer thought processes. I wish you both the best!

Thank you.

 

I am a bit embarrassed...I wasn't fishing for recognition of my "great sacrifice." I am grateful for it nonetheless.

[Ouroboros]

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

Maybe. If they do, then absolute lies would have to exist as well.

 

Can we know if something is absolute, or would that be a subjective knowledge?

[Kathlene]

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

Maybe. If they do, then absolute lies would have to exist as well.

 

Can we know if something is absolute, or would that be a subjective knowledge?

hmmm...I stumbled across these verses one day, any opinions would be appreciated.

 

Therefore hear the word of the Lord,

you scoffers

who rule this people in Jerusalem.

You boast, We have entered into a

covenant with death,

with the grave we have made an

agreement.

When an overwhelming scourge

sweeps by,

it cannot touch us,

for we have made a lie our refuge

and falsehood our hiding place.

Isaiah 28v14-15.

 

 

 

He practices ungodliness

and spreads error concerning the

Lord;

the hungry he leaves empty

and from the thirsty he with-holds

water.

 

Isaiah32v6

 

My interpretation of the hungry and thirst in this is not giving food for the soul to live by.

 

could this be one of the answers to your question about lies and truth?

 

oh wow...how weird, just as I was writing that and thinking about it I realised there was an area in my own life that I have been using a lie as a hiding place for me...whoaa.

Gotta go think on this one now...its a lie that I have believed about myself and in doing so I have been hiding from certain things and holding myself back in.

[Shyone]

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

Maybe. If they do, then absolute lies would have to exist as well.

 

Can we know if something is absolute, or would that be a subjective knowledge?

hmmm...I stumbled across these verses one day, any opinions would be appreciated.

 

Therefore hear the word of the Lord,

you scoffers

who rule this people in Jerusalem.

You boast, We have entered into a

covenant with death,

with the grave we have made an

agreement.

When an overwhelming scourge

sweeps by,

it cannot touch us,

for we have made a lie our refuge

and falsehood our hiding place.

Isaiah 28v14-15.

 

 

 

He practices ungodliness

and spreads error concerning the

Lord;

the hungry he leaves empty

and from the thirsty he with-holds

water.

 

Isaiah32v6

 

My interpretation of the hungry and thirst in this is not giving food for the soul to live by.

 

could this be one of the answers to your question about lies and truth?

 

oh wow...how weird, just as I was writing that and thinking about it I realised there was an area in my own life that I have been using a lie as a hiding place for me...whoaa.

Gotta go think on this one now...its a lie that I have believed about myself and in doing so I have been hiding from certain things and holding myself back in.

What is your interpretation of this:

 

The Koran

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The Cattle

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

 

[6.10] And certainly apostles before you were mocked at, but that which they mocked at encompassed the scoffers among them.

[6.11] Say: Travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.

[6.12] Say: To whom belongs what is in the heavens and the earth? Say: To Allah; He has ordained mercy on Himself; most certainly He will gather you on the resurrection day-- there is no doubt about it. (As for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.

[6.13] And to Him belongs whatever dwells in the night and the day; and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

[6.14] Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.

[6.15] Say: Surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the chastisement of a grievous day.

[6.16] He from whom it is averted on that day, Allah indeed has shown mercy to him; and this is a manifest achievement.

[6.17] And if Allah touch you with affliction, there is none to take it off but He; and if He visit you with good, then He has power over all things.

[oddbird1963]

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

Maybe. If they do, then absolute lies would have to exist as well.

 

Can we know if something is absolute, or would that be a subjective knowledge?

hmmm...I stumbled across these verses one day, any opinions would be appreciated.

 

Therefore hear the word of the Lord,

you scoffers

who rule this people in Jerusalem.

You boast, We have entered into a

covenant with death,

with the grave we have made an

agreement.

When an overwhelming scourge

sweeps by,

it cannot touch us,

for we have made a lie our refuge

and falsehood our hiding place.

Isaiah 28v14-15.

 

 

 

He practices ungodliness

and spreads error concerning the

Lord;

the hungry he leaves empty

and from the thirsty he with-holds

water.

 

Isaiah32v6

 

My interpretation of the hungry and thirst in this is not giving food for the soul to live by.

 

could this be one of the answers to your question about lies and truth?

 

Kathleen,

 

I know in your newly found Christian zeal you want everything to be based on Scripture. But I am puzzled as to how these quotes from Isaiah relate in any way to the exchange between Ouroboros and Bobby. They are talking about ABSOLUTE vs. SUBJECTIVE truth.

 

This passage talks about leaders in Judah who are arrogant and self-secure yet deprive the people of their sustenance, whether spiritual or physical in nature. From the prophet's perspective they are trusting in a lie to make themselves feel better.

 

This passage in no way speaks to ABSOLUTE vs. SUBJECTIVE.

 

Could it be that you are, like other Christian posters on this site, peppering this website with scripture passages only cosmetically related to the issue being discussed in order for these scriptures to have a magic effect and not return unto god void? The New Testament talks about how the scripture is like a two edged sword. So, many Christians are prompted to spill out scripture after scripture to "plant a seed" that will later bear fruit to god.

 

I hope not. But it does seem that there has been a lot of needless scripture banter from several sources lately.

 

I am growing weary of wading through it. From the evangelical Christian perspective you may feel like you are doing a service to humanity. But such practices just create so much textual noise.

 

If using a scripture is meaningfully relevant because of a subject being discussed, or if used to define a concept, then that is one thing. But please judge more carefully the relevance of a scripture before posting a reference.

 

I don't want to single you out, Kathleen, for criticism or make you feel picked on. But as an Ex-Christian on ex-christian.net it is difficult to see why we should be having to research scripture or reply to a post that is mostly scripture references. I am not asking anyone to ban scripture quoters, but I do reserve the right to point out when they are irrelevant or only superficially related to a discussion.

 

OB '63

[Kathlene]

You're good Shyone...fast too.

 

Ok, I get your point. My bad.

[Ouroboros]

"Now hear, O son of Prtha [Arjuna], how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt." Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gita

[Kathlene]

Hi, is it OK to ask a question: What is truth? And what is ABSOLUTE Truth? Is there such a thing as ABSOLUTE truth?

Maybe. If they do, then absolute lies would have to exist as well.

 

Can we know if something is absolute, or would that be a subjective knowledge?

hmmm...I stumbled across these verses one day, any opinions would be appreciated.

 

Therefore hear the word of the Lord,

you scoffers

who rule this people in Jerusalem.

You boast, We have entered into a

covenant with death,

with the grave we have made an

agreement.

When an overwhelming scourge

sweeps by,

it cannot touch us,

for we have made a lie our refuge

and falsehood our hiding place.

Isaiah 28v14-15.

 

 

 

He practices ungodliness

and spreads error concerning the

Lord;

the hungry he leaves empty

and from the thirsty he with-holds

water.

 

Isaiah32v6

 

My interpretation of the hungry and thirst in this is not giving food for the soul to live by.

 

could this be one of the answers to your question about lies and truth?

 

Kathleen,

 

I know in your newly found Christian zeal you want everything to be based on Scripture. But I am puzzled as to how these quotes from Isaiah relate in any way to the exchange between Ouroboros and Bobby. They are talking about ABSOLUTE vs. SUBJECTIVE truth.

 

This passage talks about leaders in Judah who are arrogant and self-secure yet deprive the people of their sustenance, whether spiritual or physical in nature. From the prophet's perspective they are trusting in a lie to make themselves feel better.

 

This passage in no way speaks to ABSOLUTE vs. SUBJECTIVE.

 

Could it be that you are, like other Christian posters on this site, peppering this website with scripture passages only cosmetically related to the issue being discussed in order for these scriptures to have a magic effect and not return unto god void? The New Testament talks about how the scripture is like a two edged sword. So, many Christians are prompted to spill out scripture after scripture to "plant a seed" that will later bear fruit to god.

 

I hope not. But it does seem that there has been a lot of needless scripture banter from several sources lately.

 

I am growing weary of wading through it. From the evangelical Christian perspective you may feel like you are doing a service to humanity. But such practices just create so much textual noise.

 

If using a scripture is meaningfully relevant because of a subject being discussed, or if used to define a concept, then that is one thing. But please judge more carefully the relevance of a scripture before posting a reference.

 

I don't want to single you out, Kathleen, for criticism or make you feel picked on. But as an Ex-Christian on ex-christian.net it is difficult to see why we should be having to research scripture or reply to a post that is mostly scripture references. I am not asking anyone to ban scripture quoters, but I do reserve the right to point out when they are irrelevant or only superficially related to a discussion.

 

OB '63

 

OddBird.

I guess in reference to the discussion I was pointing out that there can be lies and truth on both sides. I did ask for opinions of it. I wasnt just putting it out there, so to speak for it to speak for itself. The verses point to people using lies as hiding places, and also for some that spread error against God. Thats all. I thought it fit into the discussion about truth and lies.

[Ouroboros]

OddBird.

I guess in reference to the discussion I was pointing out that there can be lies and truth on both sides. I did ask for opinions of it. I wasnt just putting it out there, so to speak for it to speak for itself. The verses point to people using lies as hiding places, and also for some that spread error against God. Thats all. I thought it fit into the discussion about truth and lies.

And perhaps the concept of a personal God is a lie that holds you back from truly and fully understand the Universe.

[Shyone]

OddBird.

I guess in reference to the discussion I was pointing out that there can be lies and truth on both sides. I did ask for opinions of it. I wasnt just putting it out there, so to speak for it to speak for itself. The verses point to people using lies as hiding places, and also for some that spread error against God. Thats all. I thought it fit into the discussion about truth and lies.

This is more apropos:

 

1 Kings 22:

21. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, `I will entice him.'

22. " `By what means?' the LORD asked. " `I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " `You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. `Go and do it.'

23. "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

 

The ends justify the means, right?

[oddbird1963]

OddBird.

I guess in reference to the discussion I was pointing out that there can be lies and truth on both sides. I did ask for opinions of it. I wasnt just putting it out there, so to speak for it to speak for itself. The verses point to people using lies as hiding places, and also for some that spread error against God. Thats all. I thought it fit into the discussion about truth and lies.

 

Ok, Kathlene. I appreciate your reassurance.

 

Once again, I want to point out I don't want to be mean or "snottie" towards you. I hope you don't think that is the case. I like you.

 

I think when you read passages out of works like Isaiah, it is important to note that the writer is coming at it from a biased theological point of view. There is no pretense of an attempt to be fair and objective about the position of those who hold opposing views.

 

The passages quoted are political polemics using theological language. When you see words like "error," "lie," "falsehood," "scoffer" that is the writers way of saying, "You are bad people because you don't think like me!"

 

I don't know if the people being prophesied against were actually the source of starvation and deprivation, but I do know that a populist political ploy used today is to accuse one's opponent of wanting to "starve chidren" or take health care away from children.

 

As such, I don't see this passage as a reliable source of information about the nature of lies or truth. The passages from Isaiah shed no light on the issue. This is an example of how an entrenched religious view can serve to keep one human being from appreciating the humanity of others.

 

My best to you, Kathlene.

[Brother Jeff]

I'm pretty sure it was that piece of shit Oral Roberts who came up with that "seed faith" bullshit, and ever since then he and his son Richard (who couldn't put a sincere expression on his face if his ill-gotten fortune depended on it) and his fellow charlatans have been bilking stupid people out of their cash and laughing all the way to the bank. Religion is very lucrative, as the the televangelists prove every day! People still fall for that "prayer cloth" shit too, which is just fucking unbelievable. I don't which I hate more, the televangelists themselves or the appalling stupidity of the morons who send them money. It's a toss up...

 

The sad thing is that I once gave money to Pat Robertson via the 700 Club, long before he became a unicorn. During one of their telethons back in 1987, when I lived in the big city of Clute, TX, I pledged $1000. I still remember Ben Kinchlow shouting out my name in joy as he announced, "$1000 from Jeff Reid in Klort, TX!! Glory!" OK, he didn't say "Glory!", but he might have said something remotely similar. So, I used to be stupid too. But I never actually sent the 700 Club a single penny of that thousand bucks. THANK THE MAGICAL BEING that I came to my senses! Glory!

 

But back to my thoughts about televangelists. I think they all are pieces of shit and doubly so for Oral Roberts for starting that "seed faith" scam.

[Snakefoot]

I don't which I hate more, the televangelists themselves or the appalling stupidity of the morons who send them money. It's a toss up...

I hate the charlatans more than Jeebus allegedly loves souls, but I pity the victims who send them money.

[summerbreeze]

I'm pretty sure it was that piece of shit Oral Roberts who came up with that "seed faith" bullshit, and ever since then he and his son Richard (who couldn't put a sincere expression on his face if his ill-gotten fortune depended on it) and his fellow charlatans have been bilking stupid people out of their cash and laughing all the way to the bank. Religion is very lucrative, as the the televangelists prove every day! People still fall for that "prayer cloth" shit too, which is just fucking unbelievable. I don't which I hate more, the televangelists themselves or the appalling stupidity of the morons who send them money. It's a toss up...

 

The sad thing is that I once gave money to Pat Robertson via the 700 Club, long before he became a unicorn. During one of their telethons back in 1987, when I lived in the big city of Clute, TX, I pledged $1000. I still remember Ben Kinchlow shouting out my name in joy as he announced, "$1000 from Jeff Reid in Klort, TX!! Glory!" OK, he didn't say "Glory!", but he might have said something remotely similar. So, I used to be stupid too. But I never actually sent the 700 Club a single penny of that thousand bucks. THANK THE MAGICAL BEING that I came to my senses! Glory!

 

But back to my thoughts about televangelists. I think they all are pieces of shit and doubly so for Oral Roberts for starting that "seed faith" scam.

[Brother Jeff]

I don't which I hate more, the televangelists themselves or the appalling stupidity of the morons who send them money. It's a toss up...

I hate the charlatans more than Jeebus allegedly loves souls, but I pity the victims who send them money.

 

Yeah, I hear ya, Brother. I love the stupid, but I hate the stupidity.

[summerbreeze]

Yes, I wish that I had all the $$$$$ that I WASTED in the belief of something that has never been there & never will be there. I used to watch that idiot Joel Osteen and his smirking big-haired wife----what a complete waste of time. This guy lives in a golden bubble.....he's raking in so much money, I'm surprised that he isn't a hunch-back from carrying in all those bags of dough into the bank. The sad thing about it, is that he's robbing the ones' who can hardly afford it......but give because they are so delusional & think that The Lard will reward them, and look after them. What a gigantic RIP-OFF ! If I went around collecting money, and giving out promises that would never see the light of day, I'd end up in jail......which is where I'd love to see these HUCKSTERS !

[Brother Jeff]

Yes, I wish that I had all the $$$ that I WASTED in the belief of something that has never been there & never will be there. I used to watch that idiot Joel Osteen and his smirking big-haired wife----what a complete waste of time. This guy lives in a golden bubble.....he's raking in so much money, I'm surprised that he isn't a hunch-back from carrying in all those bags of dough into the bank. The sad thing about it, is that he's robbing the ones' who can hardly afford it......but give because they are so delusional & think that The Lard will reward them, and look after them. What a gigantic RIP-OFF ! If I went around collecting money, and giving out promises that would never see the light of day, I'd end up in jail......which is where I'd love to see these HUCKSTERS !

 

Amen! Preach it, Sister! That's the TRUTH!! Glory!

 

I used to live close to Houston, and I used to occasionally attend Osteen's church back when his dad was still alive. It was a big church then, but it's HUGE now, located in a former sports complex. Yeah, Brother Joel is laughing all the way to the bank after dishing out "feel good" bullshit that the sheep in his flock just ove to hear.

[Snakefoot]

Yes, I wish that I had all the $$$$$ that I WASTED in the belief of something that has never been there & never will be there. I used to watch that idiot Joel Osteen and his smirking big-haired wife----what a complete waste of time. This guy lives in a golden bubble.....he's raking in so much money, I'm surprised that he isn't a hunch-back from carrying in all those bags of dough into the bank. The sad thing about it, is that he's robbing the ones' who can hardly afford it......but give because they are so delusional & think that The Lard will reward them, and look after them. What a gigantic RIP-OFF ! If I went around collecting money, and giving out promises that would never see the light of day, I'd end up in jail......which is where I'd love to see these HUCKSTERS !

I dearly wish I had a retirement fund with all the money I sent over the years. Damn my eyes!