Leinad89 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 If there is free will in heaven, sinning (and thereby evil) would have to exist there. If there isn't, why could it not have been this way in the first place? Are christians rewarded with losing their free will after death? Any views? Both christians and ex-christians are welcome to answer. It would be cool if the ex-christians here (someone who used to be apologists or frankly, anyone who wants to) could try to go back in time, trying to argue from a christian standpoint. I can't see how any christian could get past this without dismissing heaven and hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 If there is free will in heaven, sinning (and thereby evil) would have to exist there. Hey Leinad, I would think Heaven would be limited to God's will. If there isn't, why could it not have been this way in the first place? Are christians rewarded with losing their free will after death? I think at this point in my understanding, that yes, there is a reward for "death to free will"...in that it transmits love to others and there is eternal life promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 If there is free will in heaven, sinning (and thereby evil) would have to exist there. Hey Leinad, I would think Heaven would be limited to God's will. If there isn't, why could it not have been this way in the first place? Are christians rewarded with losing their free will after death? I think at this point in my understanding, that yes, there is a reward for "death to free will"...in that it transmits love to others and there is eternal life promised. So heaven has God limiting our free will so that evil can't exist there. Yet we are gloriously happy for ever and ever. Why couldn't this be done before the fall, unless he wanted us to sin and plan on "rescuing" us later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 So heaven has God limiting our free will so that evil can't exist there. Yet we are gloriously happy for ever and ever. God wouldn't be the one limiting IMO Leinad.....we would give it up. Why couldn't this be done before the fall, unless he wanted us to sin and plan on "rescuing" us later? I think it argues for humanity as a creation then being nothing more than "robots" made to worship God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 So heaven has God limiting our free will so that evil can't exist there. Yet we are gloriously happy for ever and ever. God wouldn't be the one limiting IMO Leinad.....we would give it up. Why couldn't this be done before the fall, unless he wanted us to sin and plan on "rescuing" us later? I think it argues for humanity as a creation then being nothing more than "robots" made to worship God. But isn't that pretty much what they're gonna be in 'heaven'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 But isn't that pretty much what they're gonna be in 'heaven'? How could I be if it were my choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabewriterB Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 But isn't that pretty much what they're gonna be in 'heaven'? How could I be if it were my choice? Let me get this straight. Your final "choice" would be to -give up- all future choices?? What significance does that "choice" have when you reject the possibility of making further choices? Its like deciding to become brain dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 end3: Either, heaven has free will and evil must exist because of it. Or heaven doesn't have free will, and free will isn't necessary for an eternal relationship with God "the way he intended it". After all, we are made to worship God, right? I just don't see how we could "not want" to do evil, just because we passed over to heaven. If God does something supernatural to us, that make us not want to do evil, how could he not have done that from the beginning? And do you have scriptural evidence for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Let me get this straight. Your final "choice" would be to -give up- all future choices?? Hey Bec, As opposed to what other choices? Given the options....there is Heaven, hell, natural death and nothing, and reincarnation? What significance does that "choice" havewhen you reject the possibility of making further choices? Its like deciding to become brain dead. the significance seems to be bringing Love to others and "eternal life for ourselves"......a win/win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 I think it argues for humanity as a creation then being nothing more than "robots" made to worship God. And yet......Christians assert (with a few exceptions) that babies and young children who die get a free pass to heaven, because they haven't reached some "age of accountability", and therefore cannot make a free will decision to sin or not (or to accept Christ as savior). Does this mean that babies and young children who die, and have not exercised their "free will" (since they didn't have it) are like "robots"? If free will is so damn important that to not have it is to be less than human (a robot or puppet) then why is an exception made for babies and young children? Inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 Let me get this straight. Your final "choice" would be to -give up- all future choices?? As opposed to what other choices? Given the options....there is Heaven, hell, natural death and nothing, and reincarnation? So if you entered a vegetative state, you'd rather they didn't pull the plug and kept you alive? Would you be self aware at all, not having free will? Would you even be you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 End3, are you serious? Free will ends in Heaven? My impression from LNC and Rayskidude is that free will continues, but God makes sure no one wants to use their free will to sin. The will is free but still changed somehow. So which one is it? Why would I want to go to Heaven if Christians can't even give a straight answer to what Heaven is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 I think it argues for humanity as a creation then being nothing more than "robots" made to worship God. And yet......Christians assert (with a few exceptions) that babies and young children who die get a free pass to heaven, because they haven't reached some "age of accountability", and therefore cannot make a free will decision to sin or not (or to accept Christ as savior). Does this mean that babies and young children who die, and have not exercised their "free will" (since they didn't have it) are like "robots"? If free will is so damn important that to not have it is to be less than human (a robot or puppet) then why is an exception made for babies and young children? Inquiring minds want to know. +++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 End3, are you serious? Free will ends in Heaven? My impression from LNC and Rayskidude is that free will continues, but God makes sure no one wants to use their free will to sin. The will is free but still changed somehow. And he couldn't have done this from the beginning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 end3: Either, heaven has free will and evil must exist because of it. Or heaven doesn't have free will, and free will isn't necessary for an eternal relationship with God "the way he intended it". After all, we are made to worship God, right? I just don't see how we could "not want" to do evil, just because we passed over to heaven. If God does something supernatural to us, that make us not want to do evil, how could he not have done that from the beginning? And do you have scriptural evidence for this? I think I understand.....sure, and I think that is a valid question, what does it mean to eat from the Tree of Life / changed? I am not one of those "have the Bible at my mind's fingertip Christians L. I would think the versus supporting access to the Tree of Life would support something supernatural happing to dwell in Heaven. I am sure there are more. To your second question. What would you ask that He would have given us L? Christ first, the Holy Spriit first, God the Father's presence first? An indwelling to know the difference? I don't know that I know that mechanism at this point L....what it means to "be made perfect". Right now I see a mechanism, through death, that brings Life.....but again, what is Life after death? Best guess is, it is Pure Love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabewriterB Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 God at the pearly gates: "Dead Christian person, you have done a wonderful job of pleasing me! You made lots of non-evil decisions through your life." Dead Christian: "Yes Almighty God! I knew it was important to make holy decisions." God: "Well, as your reward...." *plucks the -free will- part out of Dead Christian's brain* "You now do not have to worry about free will anymore!" Dead Christian: *just stands there* God: "Move along now!" Dead Christian: *stands* God: *pushes Dead Christian into Heaven* "Check out the awesome music and delicious offerings at the buffet. Wait..you really can't decide whether something is awesome or delicious anymore...with your free will being gone. Just take my word for it. Next!" The End 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 End3, are you serious? Free will ends in Heaven? My impression from LNC and Rayskidude is that free will continues, but God makes sure no one wants to use their free will to sin. The will is free but still changed somehow. And he couldn't have done this from the beginning? Exactly. I've asked Christians this question many times, and most of the time the answer is that free will still exists in Heaven and people are able to sin and rebel against God there, just like here, but they will not do it, only because they don't want to. But how? How and why wouldn't they want to? One answer is, they will be able to see God, and no one wants to sin against God when they're with him in his happy place. But that doesn't explain Satan who sinned and rebelled... etc. There's no end to the questions and silly explanations they come up with, and in the end, it's gone full circle with a lot of contradictions along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Share Posted November 4, 2010 (...) only because they don't want to. But how? How and why wouldn't they want to? One answer is, they will be able to see God, and no one wants to sin against God when they're with him in his happy place. Not to mention that Adam and Eve supposedly sinned while in close, visual relationship with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 And yet......Christians assert (with a few exceptions) that babies and young children who die get a free pass to heaven, because they haven't reached some "age of accountability", and therefore cannot make a free will decision to sin or not (or to accept Christ as savior). Does this mean that babies and young children who die, and have not exercised their "free will" (since they didn't have it) are like "robots"? Robots in the sense that they IMO, exhibit a better representation of loss of free will. If free will is so damn important that to not have it is to be less than human (a robot or puppet) then why is an exception made for babies and young children? I didn't say free will was less than human....and for that matter, would not be less than God. I believe we see an exception for children as we see the "perfection" that we want to recognize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 End3, are you serious? Free will ends in Heaven? My impression from LNC and Rayskidude is that free will continues, but God makes sure no one wants to use their free will to sin. The will is free but still changed somehow. So which one is it? Why would I want to go to Heaven if Christians can't even give a straight answer to what Heaven is? You would like me to speculate on Heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 End3, are you serious? Free will ends in Heaven? My impression from LNC and Rayskidude is that free will continues, but God makes sure no one wants to use their free will to sin. The will is free but still changed somehow. And he couldn't have done this from the beginning? I responded to this twice L. Please go reconsider my responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Robots in the sense that they IMO, exhibit a better representation of loss of free will. Children exhibit a better representation of loss of free will? Its a bad thing, right? And yet said children are rewarded with eternal bliss. Would that all humanity get such a deal. I didn't say free will was less than human....and for that matter, would not be less than God. I believe we see an exception for children as we see the "perfection" that we want to recognize. I don't follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 God at the pearly gates: "Dead Christian person, you have done a wonderful job of pleasing me! You made lots of non-evil decisions through your life." Dead Christian: "Yes Almighty God! I knew it was important to make holy decisions." God: "Well, as your reward...." *plucks the -free will- part out of Dead Christian's brain* "You now do not have to worry about free will anymore!" Dead Christian: *just stands there* God: "Move along now!" Dead Christian: *stands* God: *pushes Dead Christian into Heaven* "Check out the awesome music and delicious offerings at the buffet. Wait..you really can't decide whether something is awesome or delicious anymore...with your free will being gone. Just take my word for it. Next!" The End Two options B, We left one of the options on earth along with my dead body.....let's say evil. That would leave one option left.....good. When I arrive at Heaven's gate, I am assuming from my knowledge base now....that only good exists. Is there a will to choose from if my will is singular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Children exhibit a better representation of loss of free will? Its a bad thing, right? And yet said children are rewarded with eternal bliss. Would that all humanity get such a deal. I believe that is what we are saying, that if we had no free will, we WOULD have a pass, but be robotic in a sense. Do children have a chance to exercise free will except by some stretch of the definition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 (...) only because they don't want to. But how? How and why wouldn't they want to? One answer is, they will be able to see God, and no one wants to sin against God when they're with him in his happy place. Not to mention that Adam and Eve supposedly sinned while in close, visual relationship with God. Which proves that God can, at least temporarily, be in the presence of sin. The whole "sin can't be present in the presence of God" concept is not as strict as many Christians claim. God can have sin around, but he might not like it, which is another issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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