45 replies to this topic

[Paradox]

No, I am not about to brag about the time I met Bon Jovi (Oh, what the hell , yes I did meet him once [in the Oxford Union, where all the great and the good -- and many bad also -- come to give a talk], and chatted to his wife and kids in the Union bar, in 2001; he's nice guy; from about a yard away, I asked him one question: 'Do you have a faith?' and he answered 'Catholic. Recovering Catholic'. I only mention this because it's germane to this forum's outlook.)

More to the point, for all the huge amount of negative sentiments directed towards Christianity on this forum, I suggest we ought not to be quite so one-sided. It is well worth separating the two concepts of church and faith. The second of those can be very honourable indeed, while the former often strays, and strays badly.

I often wish I myself had attended a school (and a had family, if I could choose my family!) in which, generally, the people adhered sensitively to a Christian -- in the best sense -- outlook. The reality was that I was habitually bullied by materialistic, arrogant, cruel, hormone-packed, Godless bastards, who, as a result of their actions, have infested me with demons (I speak figuratively, of course ). In fact, it was -- on the whole -- only the Christians in the school who spared a thought for me as a victim of the kind I describe above. One or two of them were even prepared to take action in my favour, at the risk of their own personal safety or reputation. All the other kids were too bound up with their own 'image'.

I suggest that there is a lot to be said for Christianity -- or at least theism, oriented towards a God of love -- of a liberal kind. Love's a good thing, isn't it?!
Of course, there is the old adage of Baron Acton: power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Church has long been an instrument of power.
Christians *can* be great. Just as long as they are not sealed off in their own Christian schools, their Christian camps, and so on, talking only to others of their own beliefs and exalting themselves with their conceits. Let us get them in amongst people who *need* their sense of principle. (As long as this is a genuinely virtuous -- and not merely a self-righteous -- sense of principle.)

PS In my quoting the Bon Jovi song title as the subject line for this post, the word 'You' is not intended to refer to contributors to this server; rather, to churches that promote a sociological mindset that is anything other than that of being a Samaritan (which, sadly, churches generally do).

[Ouroboros]

More to the point, for all the huge amount of negative sentiments directed towards Christianity on this forum, I suggest we ought not to be quite so one-sided.

Many who leave Christianity have a need of expressing their negative sentiments towards Christianity.

Where should they go? This website was created for them. If it doesn't fit you, then this website isn't for you. Simple as that.

[buffettphan]

More to the point, for all the huge amount of negative sentiments directed towards Christianity on this forum, I suggest we ought not to be quite so one-sided.

Many who leave Christianity have a need of expressing their negative sentiments towards Christianity.

Where should they go? This website was created for them. If it doesn't fit you, then this website isn't for you. Simple as that.

Wish I could give you a +10 for that reply!

[buffettphan]

For a lot of us, this website is the only place where we can safely vent, rant, rage, cry, and be comforted from the ills of religion and its followers. Don't try to remake our sanctuary.

[Ouroboros]

Don't try to remake our sanctuary.

I noticed it's very popular for newcomers to tell us (or rather command us) how we should behave to fit their ideals. Very irritating.

[Paradox]

More to the point, for all the huge amount of negative sentiments directed towards Christianity on this forum, I suggest we ought not to be quite so one-sided.

Many who leave Christianity have a need of expressing their negative sentiments towards Christianity.

Where should they go? This website was created for them. If it doesn't fit you, then this website isn't for you. Simple as that.

Well, let's put it this way: I thought it was one-sidedness of ideals/ideology/argumentation that you were, in essence, loathing. I still think you are remiss for neglecting the distinction between church and faith.

[Ouroboros]

Well, let's put it this way: I thought it was one-sidedness of ideals/ideology/argumentation that you were, in essence, loathing. I still think you are remiss for neglecting the distinction between church and faith.

How do you know? Have you been here long enough to know who this website is for and how it works? You've been here a friggin' few weeks and think already you know what this website is about and demand that it changes according to your ideas!

You "thought?" Perhaps you thought wrong? Or perhaps you just didn't spend enough really thinking about things.

And seriously, even if the purpose of this website was because of some one-sidedness of ideals or ideology, is your answer to this one-sidedness to tell everyone that they should not express what they feel and should follow your proscription of decorum?

Who are you? The God of Forums and now we must obey?

Begone Satan!

Paradox, here's a piece of advice. If you don't like it here, then don't try to change this place. Go and start your own forum instead.

[bdp]

I suggest that there is a lot to be said for Christianity

It sucks, for example. So does bon jovi.

[florduh]

Christianity is what it is. You can repackage or redefine it as you wish, but you can't sell it here.

I suggest that there is a lot to be said for Christianity -- or at least theism, oriented towards a God of love -- of a liberal kind.

Now you're just making up shit. Christianity is a religion of faith that has its roots firmly in the Bible, and the god described in that book is their god for better or worse. The word "liberal" can hardly be applied to the Christian god.

I think you may be suffering from polished turd syndrome.

[Paradox]

How do you know? Have you been here long enough to know who this website is for and how it works? You've been here a friggin' few weeks and think already you know what this website is about and demand that it changes according to your ideas!

You "thought?" Perhaps you thought wrong? Or perhaps you just didn't spend enough really thinking about things.

And seriously, even if the purpose of this website was because of some one-sidedness of ideals or ideology, is your answer to this one-sidedness to tell everyone that they should not express what they feel and should follow your proscription of decorum?

Who are you? The God of Forums and now we must obey?

Begone Satan!

Animated. I like that . Is there a 'meta-super-moderator' here who can keep an eye on the kind of fire-spitting that you yourself, dear super-moderator, indulge in? </joke>
It's just that when I read the testimonies, I get a real sense of invective towards Christianity. And, I feel, with domain name like 'ex-Christian.net', the onus is on you to prove that you are not trying to traduce those who acted as my friends at school (by whom I mean those who protected me -- the smallest, palest, weediest person in my year, in my teens -- from the bullying bastards).
BTW I didn't quite get your phrase 'proscription of decorum'. Never encountered that one before.
You seem to view me as 'the horned one' who is out to recruit people back to.... oh, I shan't say it!
I thought my point was quite reasonable. We've all got to be sensitive to the range of different backgrounds and predicaments that people are from when they come here, haven't we! Not everyone has had your (evidently embittering) experience, whatever that might be.
PS Have you finished reading that Lloyd Pye article?

[Paradox]

[quote name='Ouroboros' timestamp='1295228396' post='639380']

How do you know? Have you been here long enough to know who this website is for and how it works? You've been here a friggin' few weeks and think already you know what this website is about and demand that it changes according to your ideas!

You "thought?" Perhaps you thought wrong? Or perhaps you just didn't spend enough really thinking about things.

And seriously, even if the purpose of this website was because of some one-sidedness of ideals or ideology, is your answer to this one-sidedness to tell everyone that they should not express what they feel and should follow your proscription of decorum?<br><br>Who are you? The God of Forums and now we must obey?

Begone Satan!
/quote]

Animated. I like that . Is there a 'meta-super-moderator' here who can keep an eye on the kind
of fire-spitting that you yourself, dear super-moderator, indulge in? </joke>
It's just that when I read the testimonies, I get a real sense of invective towards Christianity. And, I feel, with domain name like 'ex-Christian.net', the onus is on you to prove that you are not trying to traduce those who acted as my friends at school (by whom I mean those who protected me -- the smallest, palest, weediest person in my year, in my teens -- from the bullying bastards).

BTW I didn't quite get your phrase 'proscription of decorum'. Never encountered that one before.<br>You seem to view me as 'the horned one' who is out to recruit people back to.... oh, I shan't say it!

I thought my point was quite reasonable. We've all got to be sensitive to the range of different backgrounds and predicaments that people are from when they come here, haven't we! Not everyone has had your (evidently embittering) experience, whatever that might be.

PS Have you finished reading that Lloyd Pye article?

[Galien]

I would venture to suggest that the people who were nice to you were christians because they were already decent human beings, which is why I was a christian. Seemed like a natural progression.

Christianity has had a negative impact on people here and they are quite within their rights to express that, and this is a great place to do it. One of the things I hated most about christians was how quick they were to dismiss the concerns of those who were not happy with the church, as though it could do no wrong.

Christianity has a long history of fucking things and people up. No point hiding from it, or pretending it didn't happen to people Paradox. Christians seem good at avoiding anything they construe as negative critisicm. I thought that christians were meant to be honest, but they aren't because they won't even admit the evil they do to others. Kind of contravenes the whole point of being a christian in the first place really, if you can't even tell the truth.

[chosendarkness]

I've known ex-fundies that found solace in liberal Christian groups, it feels good to be with people who will take your side,, but if you're really trying to escape the madness of your past religious beliefs, it's best to shed them all together instead of trying to hold on them by choosing a liberal slant. The reason is because you never really become free, you're still stuck the old belief system. It's like polishing a turd.

Edited by chosendarkness, 16 January 2011 - 09:26 PM.

[Ouroboros]

Animated. I like that . Is there a 'meta-super-moderator' here who can keep an eye on the kind of fire-spitting that you yourself, dear super-moderator, indulge in? </joke>

That would be the owner of the website, webmaster Dave.

Unfortunately for you, most of the time he agrees with me. The only time we disagree is when I keep crazy people around and prefer if they were banned. He's faster on the trigger button than me. Some say I'm more patient than both Dave and Kevin (the other super-mod). Talk to them. Then you're most likely gone within five. Up to you.

It's just that when I read the testimonies, I get a real sense of invective towards Christianity. And, I feel, with domain name like 'ex-Christian.net', the onus is on you to prove that you are not trying to traduce those who acted as my friends at school (by whom I mean those who protected me -- the smallest, palest, weediest person in my year, in my teens -- from the bullying bastards).

Why do you feel that the onus is on us to prove anything to you? Who are you to demand such a thing? Who died and made you king?

BTW I didn't quite get your phrase 'proscription of decorum'. Never encountered that one before.
You seem to view me as 'the horned one' who is out to recruit people back to.... oh, I shan't say it!

Eh. No. I don't see you as someone trying to recruit people back. I see you more like a fringe loon.

I thought my point was quite reasonable. We've all got to be sensitive to the range of different backgrounds and predicaments that people are from when they come here, haven't we! Not everyone has had your (evidently embittering) experience, whatever that might be.

Actually, I don't have any bad experience with Christians... until I started to meet evangelical Christians on this website, trying to re-convert fellow non-believers. My resentment has grown after my de-conversion, not before.

And over the years, a majority of the members here had a thousand fold worse experience than me. And I had to learn to respect their need of expressing their anguish and invective (as you pointed out) feelings towards Christianity.

It's not your place to judge them. But it's my place to ensure they have a place to do it.

That you even challenge this only proves that you have failed to understand the people here.

PS Have you finished reading that Lloyd Pye article?

Nah. But I will with time. I'm too busy keeping spammers away from this website, developing software, and working on calculus problems.

You might think that this website is a perfect place to grow your ideas, but you're mistaken. This is probably not the place for you.

Again, if you don't like it here, start your own website instead of wasting Dave's harddisk.

[Paradox]

This is probably not the place for you.

I kindda take your point, but I also find it hard to see how anyone can enjoy preaching to the converted. Sorry, deconverted. Don't you guys like a bit of spice, a bit of pluralism, a bit of contrast of viewpoint, here and there?

[Kuroikaze]

More to the point, for all the huge amount of negative sentiments directed towards Christianity on this forum, I suggest we ought not to be quite so one-sided. It is well worth separating the two concepts of church and faith. The second of those can be very honourable indeed, while the former often strays, and strays badly.

I am curious what definition of faith you are using.

In my experience, the definition that best defines faith in regards to nearly every theist I have ever encountered is, "a belief that is not based upon evidence or reason."
In this case, I can not share your sentiment of faith being honorable. Believing things for reasons that are not evidence or reason based seems to me to be the worst thing about religion, and the single most important reason that churches go awry so often.

[Paradox]

I thought that christians were meant to be honest, but they aren't because they won't even admit the evil they do to others. Kind of contravenes the whole point of being a christian in the first place really

You make my point for me.

[Ouroboros]

This is probably not the place for you.

I kindda take your point, but I also find it hard to see how anyone can enjoy preaching to the converted. Sorry, deconverted. Don't you guys like a bit of spice, a bit of pluralism, a bit of contrast of viewpoint, here and there?

Some do, some don't.

And you have to understand the difference between having a "preaching" website where some kind of action is present to get a message out to the public, and a website where people come to release what's on their mind and find equal minded.

In other words, this is not a preaching website, nor is it a place with a some leader and followers trying to reach the public with the "good news."

That you would think that only shows that you haven't really figured out what this place is.

This place is a place where someone who left Christianity can come and express their feelings about it.

You're not one of them. So don't tell them (or me) what we "should" do or not.

[Paradox]

No, to be serious, there are evidently some very emotionally fraught personal testimonies that people relate to this messageboard, and when situations get quite so critical and so strained, I always think it does well to present a balanced viewpoint, not one that this infused with invective.

[Galien]

This is probably not the place for you.

I kindda take your point, but I also find it hard to see how anyone can enjoy preaching to the converted. Sorry, deconverted. Don't you guys like a bit of spice, a bit of pluralism, a bit of contrast of viewpoint, here and there?

Mate after 36 years of listening to christianity, I don't really want to hear any more from them. I probably know it all better than they do anyway Not only did the church let me down, faith let me down as well. I really really really believed god was there and that he loved me and gave a shit. I was wrong. If he is there, he is way too silent, I am tired of one sided relationships.