226 replies to this topic

[Overcame Faith]

well done.....now if only we had first page links or something to all the reasons.......

As you Requested.

Reasons 10 (post 1), 9 (post 1), 8 (post 1), and 7 (post 11):

http://www.ex-christ...imes-scenarios/

Reason 6 (post 33):

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__20

Reason 5 (post 53):

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__40

Reason 4 (post 69), reason 3 (part 1 of 7) (post 80):

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__60

Reason 3 (part 2 of 7) (post 88), Reason 3 (part 3 of 7) (post 89), Reason 3 (part 4 of 7) (post 90), Reason 3 (part 5 of 7) (post 91):

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__80

Reason 3 (part 6 of 7) (post 111), Reason 3 (part 7 of 7) (post 119):

http://www.ex-christ...s/page__st__100

Reason 2 (part 1 of 3) (post 122):

http://www.ex-christ...s/page__st__120

Reason 2 (part 2 of 3) (post 144), Reason 2 (part 3 of 3) (post 158), Reason 1 (post 159):

http://www.ex-christ...s/page__st__140

[Overcame Faith]

Here are all ten reasons in capsule form:

10. Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

9. There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen.

8. The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

7. You have been conditioned to read Revelation, Daniel and other passages from a modern perspective while ignoring what the author was really trying to say.

6. To conclude that the alleged prophecies in Revelation, Daniel and other passages relate to us, we must engage in mental gymnastics.

5. The extravagant plans and schemes set out for all to see the alleged details of the "end-times" are neither smart nor necessary.

4. The establishment of the modern nation of Israel has no prophetic significance.

3. The book of Revelation is not a book of prophecy about end-times events that we or anyone else will ever experience.

2. There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be.

1. The god of the Bible does not exist.

[stryper]

Thanks.

[mymistake]

<deleted>

Edited by mymistake, 03 April 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[mymistake]

<deleted>

Edited by mymistake, 03 April 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[Citsonga]

Based on reason 10, 3-9 are invalid reasons for not believing the end time prophecies. IOW, Your reason 10 self refutes reasons 3-9.

Reason 2 is begging the question. You are asserting no prophecy to claim prophecy does not exist

Reason 1 is indirectly begging the question. You are asserting no God to claim His prophecy does not exist

Go back and read the actual arguments to see the points being made instead of just mindlessly commenting on the titles. Sheesh!

[bornagainathiest]

Here are all ten reasons in capsule form:

10. Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

9. There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen.

8. The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

7. You have been conditioned to read Revelation, Daniel and other passages from a modern perspective while ignoring what the author was really trying to say.

6. To conclude that the alleged prophecies in Revelation, Daniel and other passages relate to us, we must engage in mental gymnastics.

5. The extravagant plans and schemes set out for all to see the alleged details of the "end-times" are neither smart nor necessary.

4. The establishment of the modern nation of Israel has no prophetic significance.

3. The book of Revelation is not a book of prophecy about end-times events that we or anyone else will ever experience.

2. There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be.

1. The god of the Bible does not exist.

Based on reason 10, 3-9 are invalid reasons for not believing the end time prophecies. IOW, Your reason 10 self refutes reasons 3-9.

Please say why this so OC. Otherwise you're asking us to take what you say on faith.

Reason 2 is begging the question. You are asserting no prophecy to claim prophecy does not exist

More explanation needed here. We simpletons need your help.

Reason 1 is indirectly begging the question. You are asserting no God to claim His prophecy does not exist

Hmmm. That's odd.
I thought Reason #1 was directly begging the question. Can you please explain why you think it is indirect?

Thanks,

BAA.

[LivingLife]

Aren't the xians supposed to stay in the Den?

I mean this thread has bugger all to do with woo. It is a counter apologetic and not a place to debate.

Please mods, clean this well thought out thread of this garbage and then delete this post of mine.

This is after all a pinned topic. If OC wants to debate this, he can do so as a C+P to the Den.

Pretty please.

[buffettphan]

Aren't the xians supposed to stay in the Den?

I mean this thread has bugger all to do with woo. It is a counter apologetic and not a place to debate.

Please mods, clean this well thought out thread of this garbage and then delete this post of mine.

This is after all a pinned topic. If OC wants to debate this, he can do so as a C+P to the Den.

Pretty please.

I agree with you LL. This thread has so much useful information to help deconverting/deconverted christians overcome the trauma and fear from being indoctrinated with all the end-times BS. The last thing needed is for it to be polluted with christianize.

[Citsonga]

Aren't the xians supposed to stay in the Den?

I mean this thread has bugger all to do with woo. It is a counter apologetic and not a place to debate.

Please mods, clean this well thought out thread of this garbage and then delete this post of mine.

This is after all a pinned topic. If OC wants to debate this, he can do so as a C+P to the Den.

Pretty please.

Though I agree that this thread shouldn't be muddied down, the rules only prohibit it in the Testimonies Of Former Christians and Ex-Christian Life forums.

[Ouroboros]

Though I agree that this thread shouldn't be muddied down, the rules only prohibit it in the Testimonies Of Former Christians and Ex-Christian Life forums.

You're absolutely right. And I can see LL's point too, so I unapproved OC's posts this time.

[Overcame Faith]

Though I agree that this thread shouldn't be muddied down, the rules only prohibit it in the Testimonies Of Former Christians and Ex-Christian Life forums.

You're absolutely right. And I can see LL's point too, so I unapproved OC's posts this time.

Given that OC's statements, points, questions or whatever they were have been removed by Ouroboros, I'll not attempt to respond.

[Ouroboros]

Given that OC's statements, points, questions or whatever they were have been removed by Ouroboros, I'll not attempt to respond.

Go ahead. Don't worry about it. I can bring the posts back if y'all want. They're not gone yet, only in the trashbin.

[LivingLife]

Perhaps move it to Ex-Christian Life if that stops the crazies from adding their drivel. I think we all know the spin of end timez, it is not like it is some new revelation but if it helps confused folk exit the mayhem, all the better it should stand as a counter "apologetic".

A lot more thought and time go into posts like these and give a clear perspective of origins of thought et al.

[micksherlock]

The topic of being fearful of end-time scenarios is a recurring theme on this site. It is an understandable fear given the intensity with which so many Christians believe in it all. The great success of the “Left Behind” series is a testament to how pervasive such thinking is within our society.

End-times theology invokes almost all elements of Christian theology and does so in a very frightening manner. It posits that god can see into the future and that he enlisted prophets to warn others about future events. It promises via the rapture that Christians will not be involved in the carnage that is to come, but woe to those whose timing in accepting Jesus is not perfect because they will be “left behind” to face almost unutterable horror. It transforms Jesus from a forgiving and loving son of god to the vengeful judge who through the simple act of breaking seven seals unleashes terrible destruction and painful deaths. It pits good against evil with Satan taking an active role in deceiving people. Perhaps worst of all is that the simple mistake of taking the “mark of the beast” no matter whether all one was trying to do was to feed one’s children will result in an eternity in hell along with those same children.

Having said all of that, I want to make it clear that none of it is true. And I mean none of it. The way I want to try to help those who need help in this area is to give the top ten reasons why I am convinced with 100% certainty that none of it is true. There are, of course, reasons in addition to what I will list, but these are mine.

By starting this thread, I am inviting those of you who would like to discuss any of it in more detail to post your thoughts, concerns, and questions. Perhaps together we can make some progress in coming to the truth and helping to convince you of the truth that just might help set you free from this real fear you may be feeling.

I will post the Top Ten Reasons Not to Fear Biblical End-Times Scenarios part by part since I do not have the time to write it all out and post it all at once. I will begin by posting Reasons 10, 9, and 8. I will post others later as I am able.

Reason Number 10.

Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

When you really start looking into what the end-timers say, you will find that even among Christians there is vehement disagreement. There is a debate among end-timers on whether there is a pre-wrath rapture, a post-wrath rapture, or whether there is a rapture at all. They cannot agree on issues such as whether Jesus’ alleged prophecy in Matthew 24 refers to our times or, as some Christians say, whether it dealt only with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE by the Romans. And not all Christians agree that Revelation deals with future events at all. Some Christian scholars will admit that the Book of Revelation was meant as an encouragement to first century Christians who were being persecuted and that the infamous Mark of the Beast, 666, was Caesar Nero.

What many end-time preachers like to make you think is that they somehow have unraveled the mystery of end-time events and that god or the holy spirit has allowed them to interpret Revelation, Daniel and other apocalyptic books in the light of our times. But take the time to listen to these guys and listen very closely. I really mean this. Listen to the likes of Hal Lindsey, Grant Jefferies, and others. You will find them disagreeing with each other all the time. The very fact that Christians do not agree across the board is solid evidence that no god has provided any information to anyone about end-times issues. Because if god truly intended to warn us about something so horrible as what the end-timers claim is coming, doesn’t it make sense that he would do it in a way that would be unambiguous?

Reason Number 9.

There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen in reality.

Quoted below is my favorite example of how some of what is said in Revelation is simply impossible to happen.

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

Revelation 9:13-16.

In case you need help with the math, the number of mounted troops is 200,000,000. End-timers love to point to China and say how China today boasts of an army of 200,000,000 and thus uses that as one of the signs that the end is near. The scenario they like to portray is that everybody is ready for this great battle of Armageddon and that, among the other armies, this Chinese Army of 200,000,000 comes onto the field of battle and then Jesus halts the whole thing and comes down in judgment.

I have actually seen Armageddon. In 1979, my Navy ship went to Israel and I went on a tour. One of the places that our tour guide took us was to Armageddon. Yes, it is an actual place in Israel. It is a piece of land surrounded by mountains with a pass through the mountains to the flat area. I can tell you from my personal experience that the place could not hold 200,000,000 soldiers.

But set aside for a moment the impossibility of 200,000,000 soldiers plus the other armies to assemble there and just think about deploying 200,000,000 soldiers. That is the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States. Anyone who has been involved in hurricane evacuations knows what it is like just to get several hundred thousand people out of a city. It is terribly difficult. It would be impossible to equip, train, and then deploy the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States onto a battlefield.

Besides all of that, China does not boast an army of 200,000,000. It’s a sizable army, several million, but nowhere near 200,000,000. Here’s an article to read:

http://www.defpro.co...s/details/9524/

Reason Number 8.

The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

Think about this carefully. If god really wanted to warn you about upcoming end-time events, wouldn’t he do so in a way you and everyone else would have no reasonable doubts about the truth? Of course he would if he were just. So let’s take a look at a few examples of what is supposed to act as a warning to you that we are living in the end-times:

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 24:3-14

Read this passage very carefully. It is one that end-timers love to point to in an effort to convince people that we are living in the end-times and that Jesus is about to return. But each and every one of these so-called signs of the times is so vague as to apply to any time in the last two thousand years, with one possible exception which I will address separately. Saying there will be wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, and false Messiahs is saying nothing. I could make those predictions for this decade and I would be absolutely correct. I know this with virtual certainty and the reason I know it is that the past is my guide. Now show me something written in the year 90 that says specifically that Germany will invade Poland in 1939 thus leading to a world war in which millions will be killed and you have my attention. But something this general and vague means nothing.

It is verse 14 which is the only verse that is arguably not vague. “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” The churches I am familiar with use this verse as an incentive to evangelize all over the world as a way to usher in the return of Jesus. To them it is a simple formula: Preach the gospel all over the world and Jesus returns.

Even though I said that verse 14 was not vague, you should read it carefully to make sure you understand it. It can be broken down as follows:

1. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations…

2. …and then the end will come.

When viewed as I have broken it down, we can see the true meaning of the words. The first part which says, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations….” is what must happen before the second part can happen, “…and then the end will come.” However, nowhere in the verse are we told how long after the gospel is preached in the whole world that the end will come. So the gospel could be preached all over the world to satisfy the first part of Matthew 24:14 and thousands of years could pass before the end will come. I believe that this is a fair reading of the passage. And in a fair reading, it has no predictive value whatsoever. So even if some preacher proclaims that the gospel has been presented to the entire world, that means nothing according to a fair reading of Matthew 24:14.

Wow, This is really well done. I also wrote an article called Armageddon; The Self-fulfilling Prophecy, but this was much better than my article. I loved the way you summed it up. Good work!

[Overcame Faith]

Wow, This is really well done. I also wrote an article called Armageddon; The Self-fulfilling Prophecy, but this was much better than my article. I loved the way you summed it up. Good work!

Thank-you. The title of your article is so true, "Armageddon: The Self-fulfilling Prophecy." It does seem that there are people out there who would like nothing more than to see an actual Armageddon, complete with mass destruction, as a way to "force" Jesus to return, though they would never call it "forcing" Jesus to return. They would explain it more along the lines of if we can somehow get the alleged prophecies to come to pass then it would be inevitable that Jesus would appear and rapture them away from the troubles of this world. Of course, there are also those who see every event of any significance as a sure "sign of the times." What I hate about all of that is how it causes unwarranted fear for so many people.

[micksherlock]

Wow, This is really well done. I also wrote an article called Armageddon; The Self-fulfilling Prophecy, but this was much better than my article. I loved the way you summed it up. Good work!

Thank-you. The title of your article is so true, "Armageddon: The Self-fulfilling Prophecy." It does seem that there are people out there who would like nothing more than to see an actual Armageddon, complete with mass destruction, as a way to "force" Jesus to return, though they would never call it "forcing" Jesus to return. They would explain it more along the lines of if we can somehow get the alleged prophecies to come to pass then it would be inevitable that Jesus would appear and rapture them away from the troubles of this world. Of course, there are also those who see every event of any significance as a sure "sign of the times." What I hate about all of that is how it causes unwarranted fear for so many people.

Excellent point! And what does fear bring about?

[Overcame Faith]

And what does fear bring about?

The fear makes it difficult to enjoy one's life because so many events become tied into the feeling of pending doom all "foretold" in Revelation, Daniel, and Jesus' Olivet discourse (and other places in the Bible). When there is a chip available to put into one's pet in case it gets lost, that becomes the Mark of the Beast which will eventually be required for all people. When dolphins die in large numbers somewhere in the world, that becomes the blasting of one of the trumpets in Revelation. When there is a succession of earthquakes, those are signs of the end-times. When there is some ecumenical movement among various religious leaders, that becomes the first steps toward a super religion which will be headed by Satan's minions. When nations sign various treaties to try to work together, that becomes the one world government over which the anti-Christ will rule and bring his "foretold" doom upon the world.

For some, it becomes difficult to enjoy one's life because any year, month, week, or day the anti-Christ will make his appearance. Some will be raptured away, but some will be "left behind" to endure what they think will be the worst struggle in human history where one wrong move will land one in hell for eternity. The fear is that the individual going through all of this doesn't have what it takes to be raptured away and so must endure something worse than has ever happened in human history.

It's not that I can assure anyone that bad things won't happen because they will. There will continue to be crimes, war, famines, earthquakes, hurricanes, dolphins dying, etc. But maybe if people will come to realize that none of it is tied in any way to the alleged prophecies of the Bible, they will at least be able to put the fear that it is being orchestrated at the divine level out of their minds. They may not feel so helpless, either, at least for the issues which we can control (i.e., war and famines caused by political intrigue, etc.) and people will realize that something can actually be done about those things.

[micksherlock]

And what does fear bring about?

The fear makes it difficult to enjoy one's life because so many events become tied into the feeling of pending doom all "foretold" in Revelation, Daniel, and Jesus' Olivet discourse (and other places in the Bible). When there is a chip available to put into one's pet in case it gets lost, that becomes the Mark of the Beast which will eventually be required for all people. When dolphins die in large numbers somewhere in the world, that becomes the blasting of one of the trumpets in Revelation. When there is a succession of earthquakes, those are signs of the end-times. When there is some ecumenical movement among various religious leaders, that becomes the first steps toward a super religion which will be headed by Satan's minions. When nations sign various treaties to try to work together, that becomes the one world government over which the anti-Christ will rule and bring his "foretold" doom upon the world.

For some, it becomes difficult to enjoy one's life because any year, month, week, or day the anti-Christ will make his appearance. Some will be raptured away, but some will be "left behind" to endure what they think will be the worst struggle in human history where one wrong move will land one in hell for eternity. The fear is that the individual going through all of this doesn't have what it takes to be raptured away and so must endure something worse than has ever happened in human history.

It's not that I can assure anyone that bad things won't happen because they will. There will continue to be crimes, war, famines, earthquakes, hurricanes, dolphins dying, etc. But maybe if people will come to realize that none of it is tied in any way to the alleged prophecies of the Bible, they will at least be able to put the fear that it is being orchestrated at the divine level out of their minds. They may not feel so helpless, either, at least for the issues which we can control (i.e., war and famines caused by political intrigue, etc.) and people will realize that something can actually be done about those things.

And I think more than that, people are much more easily manipulated. "Weapons of Mass Destruction!!"

[Habiba]

This article is certainly the cerebral equivalent of a brown paper bag to breathe into. As a child "The end times" were my bogeyman. I lived in literal fear and trembling. I remember watching "Earth's 3 minute warning" and praying and crying in terror of what I and my loved ones might face. It's certainly a great exercise to read such a well written and succinct debunking of it all!