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Goodbye Jesus

The Science Of Depression


Yrth

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In the following lecture, Professor Sapolsky argues that depression should be characterized as a physical disease. He first defines in what sense he uses the word "depression"; Then he lists and explains the symptoms of depression; Then he explains the brain science and the psychology of depression; and finally ends by connecting the two with a recent study about how a particular gene affects the likeliness of depression.

 

Three things about the lecture that really jumped out at me:

I found the symptom portion of the video incredibly helpful. When you're depressed, it's nearly imossible to see past your own bullshit to the actual ailments that affect you. Two examples I immediately recognized: 1) Anhedonia -- essentially the inability to feel pleasure. 2) Psychomotor retardation -- an extreme lack of energy to do even the most simplistic tasks.

 

The discussion about elevated stress was also very convincing. It really explains how people can become so incredibly exhausted at the end of a day full of procrastination. Or just laying down and being exhausted afterward.

 

I also appreciated the portion about how the brain can trick itself into physically reacting in the same way as though you were gored by an elephant even though you were not gored by an elephant. I used to have dreams of my wife dying and I'd wake up with searing emotional pain that I'd locate in my chest, the same feeling I get during genuine grief. More evidence of no / bad human design...

 

I'm left wondering what people should do about it, he doesn't offer much direction on that front. But perhaps just thinking about it in these terms will enable people to view their situation objectively and thereby find a reason to persevere. I recommend the video.

 

 

_________

Update 4/15/12*

 

Treating depression with electrodes inside the brain

 

....

 

The first patients

 

Four years after publishing her research, Mayberg was ready to try what had never before been done: applying deep brain stimulation to Area 25.

 

 

120322120615-battery-powered-brain-area-25-story-body.jpg

Area 25 is the junction of all brain circuits that control our moods, according to neurologist Dr. Helen Mayberg.

 

DBS had been used since 1997 as a treatment for movement disorders, including essential tremor, Parkinson's disease and dystonia. Mayberg theorized the low voltage current from DBS could also help severely depressed patients.

 

Her first surgical experiment in 2003, in collaboration with neurosurgeon Dr. Andres Lozano at Toronto Western Hospital in Canada, was more about testing for safety than actually treating the patients.

 

"For all we knew, we were going to activate [the circuits] and actually make people feel worse," Mayberg explained.

 

The six patients who volunteered for the procedure had all tried and failed conventional treatments. Some had attempted or considered suicide.

 

"We had patients who were profoundly without any options and suffering," she said.

 

All six were lightly sedated when the holes were drilled and the electrodes implanted, but they wereawake to describe what they experienced. Several patients reported profound changes just minutes after the stimulator was turned on. One said the room suddenly seemed brighter and colors were more intense. Another described heightened feelings of connectedness and a disappearance of the void.

 

The patients' descriptions during the procedure went far beyond anything the doctors expected.

 

....

http://www.cnn.com/2...tml?hpt=hp_bn12

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Thanks pockets! I was totally engrossed in this video. I have a huge interest in this topic of depression and I have dabbled into the study of it for many years.I wanted to become a nutritional consultant.

 

If you will trust me - I studied this for a long time. I did this for myself and I also work with those who are addicted to alcohol. Diet and hormones and transmitters are so important to know about to have a smooth running brain.

 

I own many, many books on the subject and many more to help people conquer certain addictions and behaviors using food alone. The most fantastic book and simple to understand is right in front of me now, and it is called,''Natural Prozac' written by Dr. Joel Robertson. I look to his book for reference every time I am going through the blues, only to find out that, once again - I am not following the program for my body.

 

In this book he discusses five of these neurotransmitters: serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, and gammaaminobutyric acid (or GABA). Of these five, three are of particular importance in depression: serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine which he mentions in the video..

 

He will tell you that your brain chemistry changes depending on your thoughts, expectations, and activities, the foods you eat, and the kinds of exercises you perform. In fact, every single physical act, thought, emotion, and image you call to mind triggers a corresponding change in your brain chemistry.

 

His approach uses the body’s own natural chemistry to restore the brain’s chemical balance and end the dangerous cycle of negative thought patterns and behaviour that cause depression to recur. With detailed instructions on developing a tailored program of diet and exercise, new techniques for understanding and breaking free of negative habits, and targeted exercises for burning up self-destructive chemicals. Natural Prozac gives every depression sufferer a new option.

 

Throughout this book, he will be talking about personality types that, taken to the extreme, support depression. You will have to look inside yourself to see whether these descriptions fit you and to determine which elements in your personality and behavior might be keeping you from achieving your optimal level of well-being. Then he will help you find your own program. It is simple because there are questionnaires that will show you the types of food sand exercises for your own personality.

 

Here is the link if anyone is interested in ordering this wonderful book.:grin:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Prozac-Learning-Release-Anti-Depressants/dp/0062513540#_

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I found it kind of offensive that people were laughing at certain parts (in the beginning), but at the same time i realize it's funny when you're not in it. Just like you can laugh at some tragedies by distancing yourself/disassociation. Lets things seem less horrible

 

ANYWAYS....ha ha Yeah i can recognize all of this, even though my depression is largely spurred by anxiety. I find it interesting (more sad) that so many christians can deny mental health issues are biologically based.

 

As far as the brain being responsible for emotions and proving that emotions aren't spiritual in any way, at least to me, disproved the notion of a spirit, at least in my mind. At least not the supernatural definition of a soul. That is, all this stuff can be explained physically so why would we think that supernatural things have to do with it?

 

@ Margee

 

....dang it i've heard this a lot , but i hate exercising :( and suck at good nutrition ha ha. Yeah i mean, i just always hoped i didn't have to do that, ha ha.

 

Also, does this guy, or someone like him, have a video about anxiety disorders?

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Wow... where to begin?

 

Yes, I am depressed. Usually I experience a MAJOR depression once or maybe twice a year.

 

I can feel pleasure, but not to the degree I can when I am not depressed.

 

I have a lot of things I would like to do, but I lack the motivation for them because of the depression. This is true even when I don't consider myself to be "depressed". So probably, I am almost always depressed to some degree, but I only call it "depression" when it gets really bad.

 

I haven't engaged in self-injury in thirteen years as far as cutting myself goes, but I did this about a week ago. I knew it was wrong. I knew it was a sign of serious mental illness. But I had an OVERWHELMING urge to do it:

 

Picture 3.jpg

 

I know I need to let the wound heal, but I have irresistible urges to pick at it until it is bleeding badly again and getting larger and larger.

 

My sleep patterns are definitely disturbed. I sleep a lot. I do wake up early, but if I force myself to stay in bed I can usually get back to sleep and sleep soundly for a few more hours.

 

My doctor is aware of what's going on with me. I am taking Lexapro for the depression and Ativan for anxiety. I'm also using FUCKING ENORMOUS doses of Kava along with all that, like a 1 oz. bottle in 24hrs. I know there are concerns about the safety of Kava (liver damage and all that), but there comes a time when I just stop caring. About a week ago, I went out to the garage and started the car, intending to commit suicide. After about 15 minutes, I realized that I didn't really want to die, I just wanted the unbearable emotional pain to STOP. I drove myself to the doctor's office and cried in her office and got some help.

 

Next Thursday morning I have an appointment with a doctor to be evaluated to get a firm diagnosis of whether I am bipolar or have major depressive disorder, or whatever. I am very anxious to go through the testing and get the results. BUT... at the same time I battle deep depression every single night, complete with suicidal ideation. During the days, I manage to function, but at night things get a lot harder.

 

Do I need hospitalization? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. When I'm feeling better I get out when the weather is good and walk for miles and honestly enjoy it. But, I also know that I am using the Kava like I normally would alcohol. I really might as well be drinking again... :shrug:

 

I hope to get out of this depression soon. I'm planning a trip to NYC to see friends in late July, so I'm looking forward to that for sure. I also know I have doctors and family and friends (here and elsewhere) who really care about me and what happens to me. And that makes me want to keep up the fight.

 

FANTASTIC video that I am definitely going to share with my doctor and with family and friends as well. Thanks!

 

I added much more to what I had to say on my blog:

 

LINK: http://banishbipolar.blogspot.com/2011/05/major-depressive-episode.html

 

Epic rant on several different subjects. Read and you'll get the unvarnished truth about how I feel and why and what I've been dealing with... :shrug::twitch:

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Well Jeff, that sucks and blows :) I've had depression for 35 years, much better over the last 2 since I quit christianity. You are right about the emotional pain being unbearable. Keep up the fight, don't let the fucker win.

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My doctor is aware of what's going on with me. I am taking Lexapro for the depression and Ativan for anxiety. I'm also using FUCKING ENORMOUS doses of Kava along with all that, like a 1 oz. bottle in 24hrs. I know there are concerns about the safety of Kava (liver damage and all that), but there comes a time when I just stop caring. About a week ago, I went out to the garage and started the car, intending to commit suicide. After about 15 minutes, I realized that I didn't really want to die, I just wanted the unbearable emotional pain to STOP. I drove myself to the doctor's office and cried in her office and got some help.

 

Exactly what anyone wants jeff.....they don't want to die, but they can't take (at least they think they can't take) the emotional upheaval. In the heat of it it's like you don't remember what it felt like to feel happy or ok. I can tell you, that even though you still have crap storms, it does get better. You may still struggle with it, but you can learn better ways to cope with it. It's not all over, as easy as it is for me to say that. I know it seems like it will never happen. I don't know, i'm in a place right now where i feel like i don't know what's going on, feel depressed and trapped as well. At the same time, however, i know that you can get help, you can feel better.

 

Next Thursday morning I have an appointment with a doctor to be evaluated to get a firm diagnosis of whether I am bipolar or have major depressive disorder, or whatever. I am very anxious to go through the testing and get the results. BUT... at the same time I battle deep depression every single night, complete with suicidal ideation. During the days, I manage to function, but at night things get a lot harder.

 

 

 

I've had the same experiences. Night time is so hard for some reason. I guess because you have more time to think about it all. Maybe it's something to do with the body's cycles. Either way i hope you get the help you need, Jeff, a firm diagnosis is hard to get sometimes when it comes to mental issues, but i know if thorough enough it can be had.

 

Good luck jeff

 

 

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Depression is such a sad place to be. I have been in 'black holes' myself. Not fun. As I said, I have studied for a long time the effects of how we eat can affect us. If you are not eating properly or exercising, you are not helping your depression. I have proved this to myself. How you fuel your body is one of the safe ways in diminishing some of the depression.

 

I may be able to help with the information that I studied. I have a huge interest in this. I would be willing to help anyone try to set up a proper eating plan to help you in conquering some of the depression.You can 'PM' me if you are interested.

 

Food is fuel for your brain and if you want your brain to work properly then all you have to do is eat healthy brain food. Food can be like mental spark plugs and if you are not eating or exercising, these spark plugs may not be ‘firing’ properly.

 

The experts in diet and nutrition now have positive information, that the connection between a person's mood and the food he or she eats has a lot to do with eating certain foods can influence a person's mood.

 

Your brain uses chemicals called neurotransmitters to transmit messages in the brain. There are millions of these messages happening every second. Neurotransmitters are conductors of these messages, allowing them to fire from one part of your brain to another.

 

The food we eat affects the function of our brain in a variety of subtle ways. The most important connection of food and behavior comes from the cycle of having normal nutritional messages go to the brain. What you eat directly affects nerve chemicals, which in turn influence moods, energy levels, stress levels and sleep habits.

 

To get the nutrition your brain needs to stay sharp and clear, you may need to combine the proper food, exercise,and supplementation if necessary.

 

When blood sugar is out of kilter, it can lead to many symptoms including self injury, obsessive compulsions, and a huge list of symptoms:

 

· Sweating

· Shaking between meals

· Crankiness

Anger

· Weakness

· Anxiety

· Irritability

· Confusion

· Inability to concentrate

· Nervousness

· Tingling

· Pounding/racing heart

· Speech difficulties

· Fuzzy head

· Mood swings

· Feeling faint

· Nausea

· Fatigue

· Melancholy

· Depression

· Highly agitated

· Obsessive/compulsive behavior

· Slurred speech

· Poor coordination

· Glassy eyes

· Headaches

· Migraines

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Depression is such a sad place to be. I have been in 'black holes' myself. Not fun. As I said, I have studied for a long time the effects of how we eat can affect us. If you are not eating properly or exercising, you are not helping your depression. I have proved this to myself. How you fuel your body is one of the safe ways in diminishing some of the depression.

 

I may be able to help with the information that I studied. I have a huge interest in this. I would be willing to help anyone try to set up a proper eating plan to help you in conquering some of the depression.You can 'PM' me if you are interested.

 

Food is fuel for your brain and if you want your brain to work properly then all you have to do is eat healthy brain food. Food can be like mental spark plugs and if you are not eating or exercising, these spark plugs may not be ‘firing’ properly.

 

The experts in diet and nutrition now have positive information, that the connection between a person's mood and the food he or she eats has a lot to do with eating certain foods can influence a person's mood.

 

Your brain uses chemicals called neurotransmitters to transmit messages in the brain. There are millions of these messages happening every second. Neurotransmitters are conductors of these messages, allowing them to fire from one part of your brain to another.

 

The food we eat affects the function of our brain in a variety of subtle ways. The most important connection of food and behavior comes from the cycle of having normal nutritional messages go to the brain. What you eat directly affects nerve chemicals, which in turn influence moods, energy levels, stress levels and sleep habits.

 

To get the nutrition your brain needs to stay sharp and clear, you may need to combine the proper food, exercise,and supplementation if necessary.

 

When blood sugar is out of kilter, it can lead to many symptoms including self injury, obsessive compulsions, and a huge list of symptoms:

 

· Sweating

· Shaking between meals

· Crankiness

Anger

· Weakness

· Anxiety

· Irritability

· Confusion

· Inability to concentrate

· Nervousness

· Tingling

· Pounding/racing heart

· Speech difficulties

· Fuzzy head

· Mood swings

· Feeling faint

· Nausea

· Fatigue

· Melancholy

· Depression

· Highly agitated

· Obsessive/compulsive behavior

· Slurred speech

· Poor coordination

· Glassy eyes

· Headaches

· Migraines

 

I usually pay pretty close attention to my diet. I have to eat a gluten-free and dairy-free diet because of allergies, and I almost never eat fast food. Most of it I can't eat anyway because of the gluten/dairy issue. I also have to eat a low-fiber diet because a high-fiber diet gives me IBS-like symptoms (cramping, diarrhea, gas, etc.). But with those limitations, I try to eat a generally healthy diet. My one MAJOR weakness is sweets. I crave them like you wouldn't believe! And I eat a lot of them. As far as my blood sugar levels go, tests have always been in the normal range, but I guess who knows what's going on over the course of a day.

 

My exercise level varies. I am recovering from major back surgery, so for now I am limited to walking. When I feel good and the weather allows, I get out and walk for miles and honestly enjoy it -- very much! When I feel bad, of course, my activity level goes way down. I see the back doctor on May 24th, and I'm hoping he will clear me to resume more activities such as wilderness hiking and riding a bike.

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I'm not currently depressed(that's pretty rare) but when I do get depressed its like I'm a whole different person. I don't eat, sleep, work, and it feels like my hearts been ripped from my chest. I usually don't get out of bed and often just skip school when I'm depressed.

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I found this comment on this site: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/03/japanese-deterg/ from some Christian named Tabetha.

 

Don't commit suicide just say out

loud now Jesus I believe and I receive you in my heart please help me go to leroyjenkins.com for more help

 

JESUS I BELIEVE THE GLORIOUS BULLSHIT ABOUT YOU AND ASK YOU TO CUM INTO MY FARTS! PLEASE HELP ME!

 

*waits patiently for several seconds*

 

Nope, don't feel any better. Nothing happened. No fucking big-ass shocking surprise there!

 

Dumbass Christians. It should be so simple. Just get an Imaginary Friend and all will be well. Yeah, right. They may indeed mean well, but they are fucking morons who don't even come close to HAVING A CLUE. :vent:

 

And yeah, I was looking up ways to kill myself relatively painlessly, but I already know how I will likely do it..

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Thanks pockets! I was totally engrossed in this video. I have a huge interest in this topic of depression and I have dabbled into the study of it for many years.I wanted to become a nutritional consultant.

 

If you will trust me - I studied this for a long time. I did this for myself and I also work with those who are addicted to alcohol. Diet and hormones and transmitters are so important to know about to have a smooth running brain.

 

I own many, many books on the subject and many more to help people conquer certain addictions and behaviors using food alone. The most fantastic book and simple to understand is right in front of me now, and it is called,''Natural Prozac' written by Dr. Joel Robertson. I look to his book for reference every time I am going through the blues, only to find out that, once again - I am not following the program for my body.

 

In this book he discusses five of these neurotransmitters: serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, and gammaaminobutyric acid (or GABA). Of these five, three are of particular importance in depression: serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine which he mentions in the video..

 

He will tell you that your brain chemistry changes depending on your thoughts, expectations, and activities, the foods you eat, and the kinds of exercises you perform. In fact, every single physical act, thought, emotion, and image you call to mind triggers a corresponding change in your brain chemistry.

 

His approach uses the body’s own natural chemistry to restore the brain’s chemical balance and end the dangerous cycle of negative thought patterns and behaviour that cause depression to recur. With detailed instructions on developing a tailored program of diet and exercise, new techniques for understanding and breaking free of negative habits, and targeted exercises for burning up self-destructive chemicals. Natural Prozac gives every depression sufferer a new option.

 

Throughout this book, he will be talking about personality types that, taken to the extreme, support depression. You will have to look inside yourself to see whether these descriptions fit you and to determine which elements in your personality and behavior might be keeping you from achieving your optimal level of well-being. Then he will help you find your own program. It is simple because there are questionnaires that will show you the types of food sand exercises for your own personality.

 

Here is the link if anyone is interested in ordering this wonderful book.:grin:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Prozac-Learning-Release-Anti-Depressants/dp/0062513540#_

 

Margee -- you are very welcome. I also liked the lecture, mostly because I left feeling as though I had a legitimate idea of the scientific landscape of depression.

 

I'm sorry, though, but I am one of the worst skeptics you may ever meet due to having been burned before by swallowing wholesale things such as the Atkin's diet, TA theory, & Christianity. Therefore I try to draw a thick, bold line between the credible and non-credible, perhaps with some room for quasi-credible. So I Googled that book and found a link that casts some doubt. I don't want to disparage your thoughts at all, in fact I appreciate them very much, but I feel it's important to have all sides of a story and to let people make of it what they will. Here is the relevant portion:

http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/49/10/1363

Peak-Performance Living Natural Prozac

 

Dr. Joel Robertson, the author with Tom Monte of Peak-Performance Living and Natural Prozac , has a doctorate in pharmacy and is director of the Robertson Institute, headquartered in Saginaw, Michigan.

 

Robertson's thesis of Peak-Performance Living is best expressed near the end of the book: "At bottom, our problems stem from a neurochemical imbalance: Most people today are deficient in serotonin and excessive in dopamine and norepinephrine—low on satiation and high on arousal—and this imbalance appears to be growing. We are less and less calm; we have a growing inability to concentrate and focus on the deeper aspects of problems. As a society, we sleep less than we used to, and for many the hours we do sleep are restless and shallow. It is harder and harder to achieve a sense of well-being. Many millions of us are depressed. We have lost a sense of direction and faith in the future. All of these feelings are symptomatic of low serotonin."

 

Robertson's task throughout Peak-Performance Living is to tell the reader how he arrived at this formulation and what the reader can do to correct his or her own imbalances. He provides all sorts of tables that purport to show the specific effects of the neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, and gamma-aminobutyric acid. He tells how to determine whether your basic personality type is Arousal or Satiation. He provides a guide to nine personality types: the Observer, the Awakening Warrior, the Reluctant Runner, the Boatman, the Fretter, the Armored Knight, the Saint, the Fire Starter, and the Mediator.

 

Robertson then proceeds to tell readers how they can reach their peak performance. He does not prescribe prescription medications, but he does prescribe diets and exercise plans. However, he fails to provide much information that many informed readers would seek. For example, how, in fact, does he measure these neurotransmitters? If he measures them peripherally (were he even able to do so), what would these data tell us about their levels in the central nervous system? If he measures them centrally, how does he get the samples? What are the normal levels or standards against which he measures those who visit his clinic? Further, if he could accomplish what he claims to do diagnostically, where are the data to support the outcomes he reports?

 

Readers do not have to visit the Robertson Institute to obtain an assessment. At the end of Peak-Performance Living is the "Robertson Institute Performance Enhancement Survey." Readers can record their true-false answers to the 180 questions on the answer sheet and send it to the institute along with $39.95 (a $20 discount from the retail price of $59.95) plus $4.55 for shipping and handling. The readers' "Personal Enhancement Plan" will then arrive in two to three weeks.

 

What will we accomplish if we follow Robertson's directives? He tells us quite clearly in the closing paragraph of the book: "Thus we begin each day with the power to alter our brain chemistries for a day and for a lifetime. To a great extent, we can choose the kinds of activities we engage in, the foods we eat, and the images and environments that we are exposed to. In this way, we can significantly raise the level of serotonin in the brain, control our soaring dopamine, and in the process, create a better world."

 

Natural Prozac is Dr. Joel Robertson's other book. However, a substantial part of it is a virtual repetition of Peak-Performance Living. The thesis is the same, and remarks about the effects of the neurotransmitters, including the tables, are often identical or have only very minor variations. The book is really Peak-Performance Living modified for an individual with depression.

 

Perhaps the most startling aspect of Natural Prozac is the "Robertson Institute Mood Optimization Survey" that is included at the end of the book. Here again are 180 true-false questions. However, the vast majority of the questions in both surveys are exactly the same. (The price is also the same.)

 

The broad question here is whether Joel Robertson, Pharm.D., should be able to do what he is doing. Is he practicing medicine? From a common-sense point of view, many would answer yes. Legally, the answer to that question depends on Michigan law. Is Robertson providing misleading or even false information? Many of the psychopharmacologists I asked answered with a resounding yes. Finally, what are the implications for individuals who follow Robertson's diet and exercise regimens? The answer is that we have no idea because no data are provided.

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Robertson's thesis of Peak-Performance Living is best expressed near the end of the book: "At bottom, our problems stem from a neurochemical imbalance: Most people today are deficient in serotonin and excessive in dopamine and norepinephrine—low on satiation and high on arousal—and this imbalance appears to be growing. We are less and less calm; we have a growing inability to concentrate and focus on the deeper aspects of problems. As a society, we sleep less than we used to, and for many the hours we do sleep are restless and shallow. It is harder and harder to achieve a sense of well-being. Many millions of us are depressed. We have lost a sense of direction and faith in the future. All of these feelings are symptomatic of low serotonin."

 

Robertson's task throughout Peak-Performance Living is to tell the reader how he arrived at this formulation and what the reader can do to correct his or her own imbalances. He provides all sorts of tables that purport to show the specific effects of the neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, and gamma-aminobutyric acid. He tells how to determine whether your basic personality type is Arousal or Satiation. He provides a guide to nine personality types: the Observer, the Awakening Warrior, the Reluctant Runner, the Boatman, the Fretter, the Armored Knight, the Saint, the Fire Starter, and the Mediator.

 

Robertson then proceeds to tell readers how they can reach their peak performance. He does not prescribe prescription medications, but he does prescribe diets and exercise plans. However, he fails to provide much information that many informed readers would seek. For example, how, in fact, does he measure these neurotransmitters? If he measures them peripherally (were he even able to do so), what would these data tell us about their levels in the central nervous system? If he measures them centrally, how does he get the samples? What are the normal levels or standards against which he measures those who visit his clinic? Further, if he could accomplish what he claims to do diagnostically, where are the data to support the outcomes he reports?

 

Readers do not have to visit the Robertson Institute to obtain an assessment. At the end of Peak-Performance Living is the "Robertson Institute Performance Enhancement Survey." Readers can record their true-false answers to the 180 questions on the answer sheet and send it to the institute along with $39.95 (a $20 discount from the retail price of $59.95) plus $4.55 for shipping and handling. The readers' "Personal Enhancement Plan" will then arrive in two to three weeks.

 

What will we accomplish if we follow Robertson's directives? He tells us quite clearly in the closing paragraph of the book: "Thus we begin each day with the power to alter our brain chemistries for a day and for a lifetime. To a great extent, we can choose the kinds of activities we engage in, the foods we eat, and the images and environments that we are exposed to. In this way, we can significantly raise the level of serotonin in the brain, control our soaring dopamine, and in the process, create a better world."

 

Natural Prozac is Dr. Joel Robertson's other book. However, a substantial part of it is a virtual repetition of Peak-Performance Living. The thesis is the same, and remarks about the effects of the neurotransmitters, including the tables, are often identical or have only very minor variations. The book is really Peak-Performance Living modified for an individual with depression.

 

Perhaps the most startling aspect of Natural Prozac is the "Robertson Institute Mood Optimization Survey" that is included at the end of the book. Here again are 180 true-false questions. However, the vast majority of the questions in both surveys are exactly the same. (The price is also the same.)

 

The broad question here is whether Joel Robertson, Pharm.D., should be able to do what he is doing. Is he practicing medicine? From a common-sense point of view, many would answer yes. Legally, the answer to that question depends on Michigan law. Is Robertson providing misleading or even false information? Many of the psychopharmacologists I asked answered with a resounding yes. Finally, what are the implications for individuals who follow Robertson's diet and exercise regimens? The answer is that we have no idea because no data are provided.

 

 

Well, pockets, I don't think that was a terrible skeptic opinion. It certainly wasn't the worst I ever read. It is sad that we don't hear how others do on these programs. Joel's book goes right along with the video and I LOVE reading and listening to anything about neurotransmitters. I helped several people back home here with his food plan and I helped my own depression with it. To this day I follow his food plan.

I also investigate most things to 'read' and hear the other side - that's how I landed up here on EX-c!:grin:

I, myself am a huge skeptic!!

 

And the critic was right about one thing - you cannot measure anything. A lot of things are 'trial and error'. Even to this day, you can walk into any doctor's office and tell then you are depressed and they will simply hand you a prescription for a anti depressant. They guess a lot of the time. They don't measure anything.They don't know if you're low on serotonin or have too much dopimine? Or maybe, the body is adrenaline driven?

 

What fascinates me is that over half of the people in my clientèle are on antidepressants and they are still depressed?? Now - I know that they work for some people and if they do,(cause I am NOT putting down anti depressants) I am always so happy to hear that, because I think that depression is the worst god damned affliction a human has to suffer.

 

I love his book and personally, I will never throw it away! The bible - yes - but not this book.

 

I also have seen many do really well on the Atkins plan. Mentally and physically, they feel better. I think one has to experiment. Your own body will tell you. Some can eat a lot of sugar and never feel the effects. When I eat sugar, I can guarantee that I am down in the dumps the next day. I went off sugar total abstinence for one year and lost all the extra weight I was carrying and never felt better or clearer in my life. As soon as I spooned the ice-cream to me, I was back at the cookies, cakes and whatever I could get my hands on and my depression came back.

 

With my own bouts of depressions, I have to look at my whole lifestyle - Are my finances in order? Am I exercising? Am I eating properly? Is there too much clutter in my life? Are there too many people in my life? Where am I procrastinating? Where are my thoughts - are they positive or negative? Am I getting enough sunlight? (I live in a very cloudy province and it is so important to take vitamin d supplement!)

 

Personally, I find life to be very mundane and I have to do everything in my power to keep it interesting or I go crazy.

 

Depression is a curse, there's no doubt about it.I wish I could wave a magic wand over us all so none of us would ever have to suffer.

Anyway, pockets,I love this thread - thanks for getting it going. I think we could all throw in our ideas of what is helping us to live more happy on this olé' planet.............And, by the way I still recommend this book to anyone. I, personally, find it to be fascinating. .:grin:

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I usually pay pretty close attention to my diet. I have to eat a gluten-free and dairy-free diet because of allergies, and I almost never eat fast food. Most of it I can't eat anyway because of the gluten/dairy issue. I also have to eat a low-fiber diet because a high-fiber diet gives me IBS-like symptoms (cramping, diarrhea, gas, etc.). But with those limitations, I try to eat a generally healthy diet. My one MAJOR weakness is sweets. I crave them like you wouldn't believe! And I eat a lot of them. As far as my blood sugar levels go, tests have always been in the normal range, but I guess who knows what's going on over the course of a day.

 

My exercise level varies. I am recovering from major back surgery, so for now I am limited to walking. When I feel good and the weather allows, I get out and walk for miles and honestly enjoy it -- very much! When I feel bad, of course, my activity level goes way down. I see the back doctor on May 24th, and I'm hoping he will clear me to resume more activities such as wilderness hiking and riding a bike.

 

Brother Jeff - the Lard has given me a message unto you! He has saidith that the sweets you cravith, are probably not goodith for you, and to go offith them for awhile and seeith if youith feel betterith! This is the word of the Lard.:shrug:

Glorious hug for you today, my dear friend!!

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The detriments of sugar. For those who are interested :grin:

 

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That's a very good video, pockets. The guy talked so fast that I'll have to watch it again, but it really brings together the psychology/biology relationships concerning depression.

 

I also appreciated that video about HFCS, Margee. I had heard about that lecture when listening to Gary Taubes talk about his book "Why we get fat and what to do about it."

 

I read the book, listened to some podcasts and now I'm glad I saw Dr. Lustig's video.

 

Thanks to both of you for expanding my education about some really important aspects of life.

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I'm left wondering what people should do about it, he doesn't offer much direction on that front. But perhaps just thinking about it in these terms will enable people to view their situation objectively and thereby find a reason to persevere. I recommend the video.

That is the problem ... the mental health field is rife with interesting but (for the most part) ultimately useless observations and theories. I looked up Anhedonia for example and found not a single treatment.

 

I have also seen a lot of ineffective treatments, a lot of vague diagnostic categories, and a lot of people with lousy problem-solving skills in the field.

 

My son was labeled with borderline Asperger's and I have come to seriously doubt that label. More recently, a teen I know was labeled with, depending on who you want to believe, Schizophrenic prodrome, major depression or OCD. All three diagnosticians rejected the previous one's assessment, in fact, the last one, the OCD / anxiety guy, saw no indication of depression at all. This sort of thing does not inspire confidence. And all three were mainstream people in the local mental health system. Ultimately his parents just took him off most of his meds and cut his class schedules back and now he appears to be fine -- mostly he was just a victim of perfectionism, teenage angst, competitiveness, and trying too hard. Common sense won the day.

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All three diagnosticians rejected the previous one's assessment,

 

These are the kind of results you would expect if they were simply just making up theories. With no objective standards of diagnosis, you are going to get non repetitious results. If you can't get repeatable results, it doesn't meet an important scientific standard.

 

I simply have an uneducated lay opinion on this, so no doubt I'm missing the big picture here, but I do know no one was diagnosed with OCD, Asperbergers and a whole long list of alphabet soup 20 years ago before the drug companies started coming up with expensive cures. And I know this stuff is pretty non existent in places like Russia, which has a very advanced medical system, so I'm highly dubious.

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I have also seen a lot of ineffective treatments, a lot of vague diagnostic categories, and a lot of people with lousy problem-solving skills in the field.

 

My son was labeled with borderline Asperger's and I have come to seriously doubt that label. More recently, a teen I know was labeled with, depending on who you want to believe, Schizophrenic prodrome, major depression or OCD. All three diagnosticians rejected the previous one's assessment, in fact, the last one, the OCD / anxiety guy, saw no indication of depression at all. This sort of thing does not inspire confidence. And all three were mainstream people in the local mental health system. Ultimately his parents just took him off most of his meds and cut his class schedules back and now he appears to be fine -- mostly he was just a victim of perfectionism, teenage angst, competitiveness, and trying too hard. Common sense won the day.

 

Amen to that brother! (in my opinion, of course)

 

Here is a list (just under 100) of the newest 'disorders' of our time. We live in a world of tooo much stress, too much information, perfectionism, financial difficulty, keeping up with the 'Jone's', not enough sleep, bad eating habits, etc..........

 

As I said in the above post: 'I have to look at my whole lifestyle - Are my finances in order? Am I exercising? Am I eating properly? Is there too much clutter in my life? Are there too many people in my life? Where am I procrastinating? Where are my thoughts - are they positive or negative? Am I getting enough sunlight?'

 

When I allow my life to get complicated - I go crazy.:wacko: When I keep my life very simple - I tend to have a lot more peace.:)

 

Look at the list of the 'disorders' we have:

 

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/

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I'm left wondering what people should do about it, he doesn't offer much direction on that front. But perhaps just thinking about it in these terms will enable people to view their situation objectively and thereby find a reason to persevere. I recommend the video.

That is the problem ... the mental health field is rife with interesting but (for the most part) ultimately useless observations and theories. I looked up Anhedonia for example and found not a single treatment.

 

I have also seen a lot of ineffective treatments, a lot of vague diagnostic categories, and a lot of people with lousy problem-solving skills in the field.

 

My son was labeled with borderline Asperger's and I have come to seriously doubt that label. More recently, a teen I know was labeled with, depending on who you want to believe, Schizophrenic prodrome, major depression or OCD. All three diagnosticians rejected the previous one's assessment, in fact, the last one, the OCD / anxiety guy, saw no indication of depression at all. This sort of thing does not inspire confidence. And all three were mainstream people in the local mental health system. Ultimately his parents just took him off most of his meds and cut his class schedules back and now he appears to be fine -- mostly he was just a victim of perfectionism, teenage angst, competitiveness, and trying too hard. Common sense won the day.

I too would like researchers to hurry up and find solid treatment already, but I also appreciate knowing the physical conditions underlying the state of mind. So that's a way in which it's useful.

 

It reminds me of the old P.G. Wodehouse novels where the main character Berty is always able to articulate his exact mental state and be aware of how he perceives. I don't think people generally separate their emotional state from reality, and I believe that is especially true for the depressed. Hence my thought about getting an objective handle on the situation.

 

Over-diagnosis is another problem in the medical field as is the dubious combination of teenagers combined and anti-depressants. Put them together and it seems like you get the mess you described.

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I have also seen a lot of ineffective treatments, a lot of vague diagnostic categories, and a lot of people with lousy problem-solving skills in the field.

 

My son was labeled with borderline Asperger's and I have come to seriously doubt that label. More recently, a teen I know was labeled with, depending on who you want to believe, Schizophrenic prodrome, major depression or OCD. All three diagnosticians rejected the previous one's assessment, in fact, the last one, the OCD / anxiety guy, saw no indication of depression at all. This sort of thing does not inspire confidence. And all three were mainstream people in the local mental health system. Ultimately his parents just took him off most of his meds and cut his class schedules back and now he appears to be fine -- mostly he was just a victim of perfectionism, teenage angst, competitiveness, and trying too hard. Common sense won the day.

 

Amen to that brother! (in my opinion, of course)

 

Here is a list (just under 100) of the newest 'disorders' of our time. We live in a world of tooo much stress, too much information, perfectionism, financial difficulty, keeping up with the 'Jone's', not enough sleep, bad eating habits, etc..........

 

As I said in the above post: 'I have to look at my whole lifestyle - Are my finances in order? Am I exercising? Am I eating properly? Is there too much clutter in my life? Are there too many people in my life? Where am I procrastinating? Where are my thoughts - are they positive or negative? Am I getting enough sunlight?'

 

 

So you don't believe that some people have a genetic predisposition to such things?

 

I think you forget widespread fundamentalism :)

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All three diagnosticians rejected the previous one's assessment,

 

These are the kind of results you would expect if they were simply just making up theories. With no objective standards of diagnosis, you are going to get non repetitious results. If you can't get repeatable results, it doesn't meet an important scientific standard.

 

I simply have an uneducated lay opinion on this, so no doubt I'm missing the big picture here, but I do know no one was diagnosed with OCD, Asperbergers and a whole long list of alphabet soup 20 years ago before the drug companies started coming up with expensive cures.

 

I'm not sure, but i believe i've read somewhere people see Abraham Lincoln as having had major/clinical depression. I would wager it has something to do with the disorders being unexamined, merely thought to have been seen as 'quirky'. Although i do think the drug companies' profit has an effect, i think the recognitions of the disorders predate the companies' production of drugs, albeit they probably jumped on the chance to make more money. Not to say that

 

I also agree that diagnoses are applied too arbitrarily, however that's a lot to do with the interconnected aspects of each disorder. One usually causes or is shared by another (depression is a broad term, there are many kinds of depression that you could have), like how anxiety problems and depression** go hand in hand. A lot of the symptoms overlap, and it is harder to diagnose things accurately because the you can't really examine every aspect of what causes someone's 'troubles'/disorder because the amount of variables going into it are not easily quantifiable and often specific to the person. I think another aspect it is how interdependent each of these neurotransmitters are. If one's out of whack, it can result in a sort of downward spiral (when combined with cognitive and perceptual aspects). So as a disorder one ends up with, is based on a completely different problem entirely. Some are mistaken for others

 

Like my depression is a result of my extreme anxiety most likely, however you really can't know for sure unless you try different medications or methods of therapy. Also since you can't do extensive testing on every single kid who is suspected of having a mental illness, a lot of it, unfortunately, is hit and miss.

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I have also seen a lot of ineffective treatments, a lot of vague diagnostic categories, and a lot of people with lousy problem-solving skills in the field.

 

My son was labeled with borderline Asperger's and I have come to seriously doubt that label. More recently, a teen I know was labeled with, depending on who you want to believe, Schizophrenic prodrome, major depression or OCD. All three diagnosticians rejected the previous one's assessment, in fact, the last one, the OCD / anxiety guy, saw no indication of depression at all. This sort of thing does not inspire confidence. And all three were mainstream people in the local mental health system. Ultimately his parents just took him off most of his meds and cut his class schedules back and now he appears to be fine -- mostly he was just a victim of perfectionism, teenage angst, competitiveness, and trying too hard. Common sense won the day.

 

Amen to that brother! (in my opinion, of course)

 

Here is a list (just under 100) of the newest 'disorders' of our time. We live in a world of tooo much stress, too much information, perfectionism, financial difficulty, keeping up with the 'Jone's', not enough sleep, bad eating habits, etc..........

 

As I said in the above post: 'I have to look at my whole lifestyle - Are my finances in order? Am I exercising? Am I eating properly? Is there too much clutter in my life? Are there too many people in my life? Where am I procrastinating? Where are my thoughts - are they positive or negative? Am I getting enough sunlight?'

 

 

So you don't believe that some people have a genetic predisposition to such things?

 

I think you forget widespread fundamentalism smile.gif

 

Yes Dude, I do believe that some are more prone to a genetic predisposition. I am. Some people have depression only in 'situations' that seems to go away as soon as the situation is taken care of. Then there is 'loss' and the depression that comes from that. That seems to be normal.

 

Genetic, environmental and neurobiological factors are all at play with this horrible affliction. That is why I feel, (from what I have studied) it is so important to take care of yourself and cover every angle that you can 'fight' this monster with, as I mentioned above..

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i think the recognitions of the disorders predate the companies' production of drugs,

 

No doubt there are valid, undiagnosed disorders. I'm still skeptical of the fact that millions of people are now being labeled with newly created disorders. I also think too many people are failing to just man up and take personal responsibility for their actions and their own well being by falling back on disorders they think they have or their school councilor told them they have.

 

If someone has a genuine problem, that's one thing, but if you are sitting on the couch eating chips and playing video games because you have ADHD and can't hold down a real job, I think you're kidding yourself and virtually no one else. (not you as in you, but you as in the universal variety)

 

If you want a humorous spin on it, watch the film Brain Candy by Kids in the Hall.

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i think the recognitions of the disorders predate the companies' production of drugs,

 

No doubt there are valid, undiagnosed disorders. I'm still skeptical of the fact that millions of people are now being labeled with newly created disorders. I also think too many people are failing to just man up and take personal responsibility for their actions and their own well being by falling back on disorders they think they have or their school councilor told them they have.

 

If someone has a genuine problem, that's one thing, but if you are sitting on the couch eating chips and playing video games because you have ADHD and can't hold down a real job, I think you're kidding yourself and virtually no one else. (not you as in you, but you as in the universal variety)

 

If you want a humorous spin on it, watch the film Brain Candy by Kids in the Hall.

 

Agreed, i don't agree with using your disease to excuse yourself from at least trying to live (unless of course you're going through a major depressive episode, panic attack, etc), in fact when i was first being introduced to it all, i was extremely resistant to any sort of "diagnosis" because 1. I was a "good christian" and wanted to trust Jesus 2. I bought the stigma put on mental health issues 3. I was against being on any more medication and 4. I worried about being misdiagnosed.

 

I have heard of many doctors of being far too liberal in their appraisal of kids, especially when it comes to ADHD. I think i even got tested for it when i was a kid, came up negative though. I think it's in large part do to suggestion, not just to the doctor, but to the patient. Demand characteristics i believe is what it's called in an experimental setting. They know what they're being tested for, and their expectations shape how they react and therefore how they are diagnosed. Also the more socially acceptable a disorder, the more likely it is that a person will be misdiagnosed with it and accept it, as opposed to getting a second opinion.

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I have had experiences of depression, but thankfully, it weren't as major as Bro Jeff's or Galien's, but it definitely sucked enough that I had to miss out on some university lessons, leading to tears (and Hamlet style ruminations) and the reason I write so many upbeat posts is that I'm trying to minimize the growth of the terrible spectre that is Depression.

I have had experienced intense happiness, I have experienced intense sadness, but I prefer intense happiness. I also prefer serenity over despair. I like everything to end on a serene note.

 

One potential (re) triggers of depression is my coming out of the closet to people that I'm gay and my Dad's insistence that I be asexual but I'm standing put behind my decision - however, I'm worried an insanely homophobic guy would ruin it all for me and that guys I like would be shallow or violently rejective of me. It could be nothing, but I'm not willing to give up on my new found freedoms and happiness to these lowlifes easily. However, I'm afraid inside. But I want help to deal with my new found reality. So here am I.

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