I Don't Have To Forgive If I Don't Want To

[TotalWreck]

As most of you know by now, usually when I start a new thread it's so I can go off and vent, and this is another one of those threads!

 

My mood has been pretty good the past few weeks, but for some reason today I woke up PISSED. I've been thinking about that masochistic piece of shit bible and how it says we have to forgive EVERYONE who has ever hurt us. For years I've said I forgive the people who have hurt me, even though in the back of my mind I knew there were some people that I did not truly forgive. And I woke up today and thought, "I don't have to fucking forgive anyone if I don't want to!" Fuck that shit! I can forgive people who have apologized for hurting me, but why the fuck should I have to forgive people who have not only never apologized to me, but hurt me so bad that I'm STILL suffering the effects of what they did to me to this day?

 

There are some (many) cruel, evil people in this world and nobody should be forced to forgive someone if they don't want to, especially if it's someone who has hurt them in a way that will affect them for the rest of their life. They say forgiveness isn't for the other person, but for you blah blah blah, but that's debatable. I agree that you shouldn't let the anger you have for someone take over your life because it doesn't do any good for you, but if there is some anger inside of you for people who have hurt you, there's not much you can do to help those feelings and you have every right to have them.

 

It just makes me SO ANGRY that there's so much masochistic shit in the bible that makes people feel worthless and that I actually fell for that shit. Maybe if "God" actually punished all these evil people after they do evil shit it would be easier to forgive, but "God" just keeps letting evil people cause even more hurt to others (because there probably is not a god). What a bunch of brainwashing lies and bullshit!

 

Thank you once again for listening to me vent!!!

[Kurari]

I agree. I don't WANT to forgive evil people. They don't deserve forgiveness. I don't want to hear about forgiveness because of all the connotations about it.

 

What I want to do is to stop wasting my energy on the subject. I deserve better than that.

[TotalWreck]

I agree. I don't WANT to forgive evil people. They don't deserve forgiveness. I don't want to hear about forgiveness because of all the connotations about it.

 

What I want to do is to stop wasting my energy on the subject. I deserve better than that.

 

EXACTLY! When it comes to people who have really emotionally scarred me in some way, the only thing I can do is try not to waste my energy thinking about them since evil people like that don't give a fuck who they hurt and they're not worth my time or mental/emotional energy. HOWEVER, the shit they've done to me will always be in the back of my mind and there will be times when the bad memories surface, and during those times I have every right to be pissed and angry. I do NOT have to forgive evil, cruel people.

[Margee]

I have finally learned that it's ok not to forgive certain things in my life that has happened to me. It's the most peace I have had in a long time. I don't even think about most of the shit stuff anymore because I don't have to find a way to forgive. I just don't want to be around hurting people anymore. I detach from them. I don't want the hate, I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't want revenge (although deep down I will take a little glory if they fall - human nature )

 

I just feel better that I don't have to do this thing called 'forgiving'.......If some don't forgive me for the stupid self centered things I did in my life - I don't blame them either........just a bunch of concious 'unevolved' animals learning from stupid mistakes and dreary doings.........

[florduh]

Forgiveness is for your benefit, not theirs, but you aren't required to do it if you don't want to.

[pratt]

i don't have to forgive and forget,,,,

 

i have learned not to bear hatred that will eat me up slowly,,,

 

I try not to carry anger in my sleep,,,,

 

I don't have to forgive and forget and I will try to make sure that the events/people will not make me unable to enjoy the better things in life

[TotalWreck]

Forgiveness is for your benefit, not theirs, but you aren't required to do it if you don't want to.

 

I mentioned this in my post, and while I do know this, the fact is that there are some people that I just cannot forgive even after many years and that's just the way it will probably always be. The best thing I can do is try my best not to even think of them or waste my energy on them (but there are times like today when the memories surface).

[SilentLoner]

I agree 100%. I'm really sick of what I like to call the "Forgiveness Facism" that seems to be everywhere.

 

I think you would really like this article:

 

TO FORGIVE IS GOOD, BUT SOMETIMES I WANT TO STAY MAD - Author unknown (OK..I forgot!)

 

Some years ago, a barrage of thumping, galloping noises routinely issued from the apartment upstairs as if baby elephants were competing in the 50-yard dash. I went up one day to politely inquire. "No, nobody's making noise here" the husband and wife both insisted. It must be coming from elsewhere in the building." Two children about five years old, each holding soccer balls, stood right beside their parents. "Could the thumping be your kids running around, perhaps playing soccer?", I asked. "Oh no, we never let the kids play in the house."

 

For months, the pattern continued: the thumping and galloping above, our delicate check-in, the denial. It got so that every time I saw the couple, I glared without a word of greeting. When they moved out of the building, the thumping stopped.

 

I supose I could have forgiven my neighbors this infraction and spared them the glare. After all, forgiveness is in, a trend spawning best-selling books, foundations and research institutes. The notion has gone well beyond spiritual leaders advising that forgiveness is good for the soul and that hard feelings will turn us bitter and hostile. Now the medical community cites studies showing that forgiveness can prevent heart attacks, lower blood pressure and even ease depression.

 

I may be outnumbered, but I still believe in the healing power of the grudge. I've deployed grudges with an equal-opportunity sense of fairness - against teachers and classmates, bosses and colleagues, family and friends. I've chosen to stop speaking to certain people permanently and occasionally even spoken ill of them - but more with incredulity than a sense of revenge. I'm neither proud nor ashamed. But I've discovered that nothing feels quite as satisfying as a grudge well nursed.

 

I had a boss who took a dislike to me from my first day on the job, even though she hired me. There were no complaints about my performance, but I later learned she'd lied to co-workers about me. Without explanation, she laid me off after only ten weeks, just before Thanksgiving. I had a family to support. Was I to forgive her? Should I now? GIve me one good reason. My grudge against her balanced out that injustice, somehow righted the universe. It has kept me warm on many a cold night.

 

Under the new mandate of blanket absolution, should I forgive the cousin who invited us to dinner only to make an Amway pitch? Or the friend who sent me a public relations client and then harrassed me for months for a 10 percent finder's fee?

 

I'm not against forgiveness per se; I have forgiven people for rudeness as well as for deep misunderstandings and have done so without holding on to hard feelings. What I deplore is the propaganda about forgiveness. No longer an option, forgiveness is an edict. Forgiving so democratically cheapens the very act.

 

A long standing grudge suggests that we hold certain standards, that we respect ourselves enough to reject bad behavior. Failure to forgive can be just as righteous, just as honorable as forgiveness itself.

 

When someone apologizes, however, with sincerity, not calculation, it can make a difference. I had a close friend in high school who ditched me after college and has avoided me for all the decades since. At our 15th high school reunion, I had the chance to ask him why. He said that I had always made him feel inferior, as if he gave offense.

 

And he had a point: I'd made fun of him - I'd thought good-naturedly - until he withdrew. Face-to-face at our reunion, I apologized. He declined.

 

I know how it feels to go unforgiven. And guess what? It feels deserved.

http://nancy1223.typ...o-stay-mad.html

 

Also see:

The fine art of holding a grudge

http://jrzygyrl.com/...lding-a-grudge/

 

Don’t Judge My Grudge…Forgiveness Is Over-Rated

http://builicious.bl...-is-over-rated/

[TotalWreck]

I have finally learned that it's ok not to forgive certain things in my life that has happened to me. It's the most peace I have had in a long time. I don't even think about most of the shit stuff anymore because I don't have to find a way to forgive. I just don't want to be around hurting people anymore. I detach from them. I don't want the hate, I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't want revenge (although deep down I will take a little glory if they fall - human nature )

 

I just feel better that I don't have to do this thing called 'forgiving'.......If some don't forgive me for the stupid self centered things I did in my life - I don't blame them either........just a bunch of concious 'unevolved' animals learning from stupid mistakes and dreary doings.........

 

You got it! Do you know how stressful it was when I was told I have to forgive everyone who has hurt me? It messes with your head because you know deep down there are certain people you could never truly forgive, and then you start feeling guilty because that piece of shit bible is telling you that you HAVE to.

[TotalWreck]

SilentLoner, I want to thank you a million times for that article you posted - I have not read such a great article in a long time!

 

I not only loved the parts that you bolded and underlined, but this part as well:

 

I'm neither proud nor ashamed. But I've discovered that nothing feels quite as satisfying as a grudge well nursed.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's so nice to see other people feel the same way.

[Guest end3]

Hurt grows into anger and hate I expect. And I don't know that isolating the offender will always produce the desired effect for either party. Certainly there are exceptions.

[badpuppy]

What if you thought of it as a "letting go" instead of "forgiving"?

 

Though... anger is a normal phase and I don't think you should deny your feelings. Feel them as long as you need to feel them. At some point you may come to a place where you want to be totally free of those things. At that point you don't have to "forgive", but letting go of your attachment to them and the pain and anger they caused you at some point may help you to move on. Either way, it should only happen when you're ready and IF you're ever ready. (I agree it should not be forced or coerced. You have the right to own your own feelings and experiences without other people trying to project their preferences onto you.)

 

On the point of punishing those who hurt others, I think it's wise to remove people like violent criminals from society so they can't cause more pain, but I don't think "punishing someone" in a retributive manner does much good. All it does is continue the cycle of suffering. It's the whole: "He did it to me so I have to do it to him." It turns people into what they hate and adds to the overall suffering quotient.

 

Just my opinion.

 

And I understand the anger. I was there for a long time. At this point I still get frustrated but I don't get to the same angry level I used to and I feel better about that.

[rebelcheese]

I know I seldom speak here but I wanted to thank you, TotalWreck, for starting the thread and you, SilentLoner, for the links.

Most of the christians I have dealt with in my life have ended up doing some truly nasty things on an epic scale. Some of those things were not even directed at me but at friends that had the gall to disagree, ask the wrong questions, leave a church, ect.

 

Maybe someday I'll have the gumption to post about it here. It would probably be cathartic.

 

I just cannot forgive these people. I think it is rather telling that the people who have treated me the best in life were the people the fundies told me to stay away from such as the atheists, the people into 'alternative religions'.

 

Thanks again.

[badpuppy]

I know I seldom speak here but I wanted to thank you, TotalWreck, for starting the thread and you, SilentLoner, for the links.

Most of the christians I have dealt with in my life have ended up doing some truly nasty things on an epic scale. Some of those things were not even directed at me but at friends that had the gall to disagree, ask the wrong questions, leave a church, ect.

 

Maybe someday I'll have the gumption to post about it here. It would probably be cathartic.

 

I just cannot forgive these people. I think it is rather telling that the people who have treated me the best in life were the people the fundies told me to stay away from such as the atheists, the people into 'alternative religions'.

 

Thanks again.

 

I noticed the same thing about atheists and alternative religions. The "you will know them by their fruit" turned out to ironically lead me to people who were NOT Christians. (Which isn't to say there aren't any good Christians but the overwhelming majority of "loud and proud" Christians are rarely the type of people I want to spend much time with.)

[TotalWreck]

I know I seldom speak here but I wanted to thank you, TotalWreck, for starting the thread and you, SilentLoner, for the links.

Most of the christians I have dealt with in my life have ended up doing some truly nasty things on an epic scale. Some of those things were not even directed at me but at friends that had the gall to disagree, ask the wrong questions, leave a church, ect.

 

Maybe someday I'll have the gumption to post about it here. It would probably be cathartic.

 

I just cannot forgive these people. I think it is rather telling that the people who have treated me the best in life were the people the fundies told me to stay away from such as the atheists, the people into 'alternative religions'.

 

Thanks again.

 

I'm glad that this thread was able to be helpful to you. If you don't want to forgive someone, you have every right not to - not everyone deserves forgiveness IMO, and I think a lot of people feel this way whether they admit it or not. Christians want you to basically just pretend that you have no hard feelings towards people who have hurt you, but that's easier said than done. You only have so much control over your feelings.

[Guest wester]

I was an utter masochist and routine self-harmer for well over 35 years. I got it from my good Presbyterian mum who was emotionally and psychologically abused by her mom, her brother and her husband. It was like she automatically sought out abusive relationships for decades. She has been on anti-depressants for 15 years because she can't allow herself to feel anger at injustice and because she internalized all the bible thumping.

 

My Baptist father and his mother who both had low self esteem and anxiety disorders dumped all their sickness directly onto me for decades. Because I was a kid I didn't know any different. This helped to drive me into the ditch and horribly stunt my psychological development, not to mention make all my hair fall out by the age of 22. After the Iraq War, which they supported, I kept walking and never looked back. Best thing I ever did. Now I live on the other side of the planet, things have improved immeasurably and that's fine with me. Absent acnowledgement of my humanity and apologies, I will never forgive.

 

Living with abuse by "forgiving" induces Stockholm Syndrome and other untold horrors. Forgiving may be for my benefit, but I will forgive when I am out of danger and no loger subject to manipulation and trauma.

 

Good day.

[TotalWreck]

Living with abuse by "forgiving" induces Stockholm Syndrome and other untold horrors. Forgiving may be for my benefit, but I will forgive when I am out of danger and no loger subject to manipulation and trauma.

 

You are SO right Wester - it is almost like Stockholm Syndrome! I never thought of it that way.

[Onyx]

I'll begin my views on forgiveness by explaining an obscure literary sub genre of the romance genre: late antique/Shakespearean romance.

 

Here's the run down of the conventions of this obscure genre.

 

* A person is hurt. His/her love is harmed. The loved one drifts away from them on a distant adventure or being bundled together to a more distant place.

* The main character (and or with his/her loved one) oversee or undergoes trials. These people are trying to hurt them or they are hurting the main character.

* The main character still keeps his/her ingreity throughout these trials.

* He or she meets his/her tormentors. He or she tries to forgive or forgives them.

* The main character is reunited physically/emotionally with his/her loved one. Sometimes the main character have hurt the loved one and she/he tries to get them to forgive him or him. Sometimes, after trying to get restored to their former glory, he or she finds redemption and peace in a different place without attachments to his/her previous circumstances if he or she have no loved ones in the first place or the loved have reconciled/divorced with/from him/her.

* Regardless of outcome, though the main character get his or her own felicity and happiness back; she or he is in a very different place both physically and emotionally, different but wiser and have a graceful happiness. Forgiveness is not really necessary but it is often a staple of this literary sub-genre.

 

So, why this genre to explain my views? I believe it's not necessary to forgive, but that you have to be in a different mode of living and thought while still being yourself sound and remended. Forgiveness is the icing on the top. It's a touch that adds to the cake's taste but it's not really necessary and the cake wouldn't suffer from a lack of icing. Just that it has to be made from whole ingredients that are broken. Broken through into something new and possibly tastier. It's when the cake is made, that there are the best conditions for forgiveness should you want it. Revenge is like destroying a bad cake with a grenade launcher when it could have been just disposed of in a bin or fed to less discriminating palates. Righteous anger is like spitting out bad cake. Clearing of the remains of bad cake is Justice; acknowledging the wrong but clearing it away without bitterness. And forgiveness is the best possible outcome but a cake with a lack of icing is not so bad either. A good cake is a good cake after all; a cake reconstituted from split and mixed ingredients is just as good.

 

So forgiving is a process where the circumstances are good or better than your previous circumstances before the evil was done, for that process. It is not necessary but it is desirable. Some evil is harder to get over than other evils. For that, Time is the key.

 

That's what the late antique/Shakespearean romances were all about: circumstances, regaining what is lost or making your circumstances and the passage of Time. Time doesn't necessarily heal all wounds but it does make living with wounds easier. It is alway the case that you are in a different place - physically and mentally. Life is after all, a series of interesting and good and all kinds of circumstances.

[Deva]

The whole root of this idea of forgiveness is that Christ forgave your sorry ass for being born and you ought to be grateful and do the same for every one else.

 

There may be reasons to forgive someone, but Christians twist this like everything else and make into a You Must or You should.

[JadedAtheist]

I don't really think of "forgiveness" all that often. I have people hurt me or wrong me and I generally move on. Sure, every now and again I get angry but the point is I don't dwell on it. Dwelling on it just makes me into a bitter person and ruins my life, pretty much the opposite of what I want to happen. I appreciate apologies, but I don't need them. Whenever the above occurs, I just change my behavior accordingly and it takes a lot for me to put someone back out of the "sin bin" so to speak.

 

I don't even know if I even believe in forgiveness. It's not magic, I just can't will it. It's not an emotion that one constantly feels. It can be described as "actions" but that's not what most people mean. All I know is that I just keep rolling on, generally can't get back at the people who wronged me so I just have to cast it aside and focus on what I do have control over.

[Legion]

Everything has to run its natural course. If forgiveness comes then great, and if not then so be it.

 

When I first came to ex-C I was taken aback by the amount of anger and bitterness here. But then I had been out of it for quite some time and Christianity didn't steal as much from me as it did others. Now I recognize that the anger is a necessary phase in the leaving it behind.

 

Our emotions have a function.

[Casey]

This whole "You have to forgive!" thing is tied up with the erroneous precept that you must "Return good for evil." Bullshit! You return justice for evil; if you return good for evil, what then is the point of Romans Chapter 13 and what is contained therein? To "Return good for evil," is merely to aid and abet those who commit evil. Christians, in one of their typical sob stories, point to Corrie Ten Boom and how she forgave a former SS concentration camp guard, even though her own sister had died in the same camp. Well bully for her! God didn't tell her to do it, she chose to do it, based on the aforesaid misconception.

 

I prefer the story of an Israeli man who chose a different course. Both his parents had been murdered in Romania in front of his eyes, but he survived the war. He tracked down the man who had done the murders and cut loose with a machine pistol. As Joseph Stalin said, "Death solves all problems. No man, no problem!" What is more, other victims did the same in various places. Christians ignore stories like that; they prefer to let their Lord do the job.

 

Forgiveness is all well and good; justice, rough though it might be at times, is better!

Casey

[badpuppy]

This whole "You have to forgive!" thing is tied up with the erroneous precept that you must "Return good for evil." Bullshit! You return justice for evil; if you return good for evil, what then is the point of Romans Chapter 13 and what is contained therein? To "Return good for evil," is merely to aid and abet those who commit evil. Christians, in one of their typical sob stories, point to Corrie Ten Boom and how she forgave a former SS concentration camp guard, even though her own sister had died in the same camp. Well bully for her! God didn't tell her to do it, she chose to do it, based on the aforesaid misconception.

 

I prefer the story of an Israeli man who chose a different course. Both his parents had been murdered in Romania in front of his eyes, but he survived the war. He tracked down the man who had done the murders and cut loose with a machine pistol. As Joseph Stalin said, "Death solves all problems. No man, no problem!" What is more, other victims did the same in various places. Christians ignore stories like that; they prefer to let their Lord do the job.

 

Forgiveness is all well and good; justice, rough though it might be at times, is better!

Casey

 

There are plenty of cases of Christians NOT "letting their lord do the job" i.e. holy wars, crusades, inquisitions, etc. There is some wisdom in the response of good instead of evil, instead of "justice". I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of "justice". It seems more like self-righteous vindictiveness to me. Or "revenge". I'm not saying people can't seek revenge. People can do what they want, but... I think those sorts of actions turn you into that which you hate. The problem is that when we react with violence toward those who are violent we create more violence and more suffering. Fighting fire with fire makes more fire. Nobody in their right mind fights literal fire with fire. They use water. Returning negativity in kind only produces more suffering. I'm not saying violent criminals should be allowed to run around harming everyone, but that humanity's tendency to "blow up the enemy" only adds to the problem.

 

Sometimes our sense of "justice" is revenge wearing a self-righteous coat.

[Guest end3]

Forgiveness is for your benefit, not theirs, but you aren't required to do it if you don't want to.

 

Actually, it can benefit both parties. Condemnation kinda sucks after awhile.

[Luv2knit]

I found when i was trying so hard to forgive someone, I would end up thinking about the whole ugly thing and it would get me all worked up and angry all over again! If I just let it go, it was much better. Let it go as in not thinking about it at all. Letting it be. I have found peace over many things that used to roll around in my mind over the years. But it only happened when I let go of my faith.