36 replies to this topic

[Margee]

This is worth listening to. Pastors who are preaching but don't really believe anymore..........

Quote: ''We talk with Dan Barker, President of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, who is part of an exciting website called The Clergy Project.

The Clergy Project is a confidential safe haven for active and former clergy who do not hold the supernatural beliefs of their religious traditions. It's amazing how many pastors and ministers have left their faith or seek to do so.''

[TotalWreck]

Thanks for posting this - it's really good! I've only listened to the first 30 minutes so far but I'll listen to the rest later.

It's really is re-assuring knowing that even pastors are questioning their beliefs and realizing it's all a bunch of crap.

[Gneekly]

I'm downloading to my pc right now

[BrotherJosh]

Here's a link to a pdf article of the OP - http://newsweek.wash...ving-Clergy.pdf

My partner, when she was still going to church (almost ten years ago), asked her pastor if he really, really believed what he preached. He responded, "No, I just preach what the congregation wants to here." I would suspect that is the case, for much of the clergy in America, and the world.

[Legion]

See, I do not have a soft spot for these well-meaning, fearful for their dinner, preaching 'be nice', hypocritical pastors.

They should regain their integrity and get the fuck out, and now.

Without these men and women, the inevitable transformation of Christianity will accelerate. We can see it for the metaphor it is, and tuck it in the bag of interesting things Western civilization has done.

[BrotherJosh]

See, I do not have a soft spot for these well-meaning, fearful for their dinner, preaching 'be nice', hypocritical pastors.

They should regain their integrity and get the fuck out, and now.

Without these men and women, the inevitable transformation of Christianity will accelerate. We can see it for the metaphor it is, and tuck it in the bag of interesting things Western civilization has done.

I agree, but immediate concerns for the aforementioned are also important. Mainly, their education, experience, and community is centered around their religion. Cut ties with that umbilical cord and the income for your family dries out. Rock and a hard place.

[Legion]

I agree, but...

They perpetuate a fraud.

[BrotherJosh]

They perpetuate a fraud.

I agree. Rock and a hard place. But ultimately we are all frauds.

[Legion]

They perpetuate a fraud.

I agree. Rock and a hard place.

Let us examine this rock and this hard place.

To have integrity and struggle socially and financially, or to lie and have 'community' and meat on the table?

Oh? And these lies? Among the congregation are sensitive young women and men. They are hurt. They are torn apart by these lies.

Edited by Legion, 20 February 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[BrotherJosh]

Let us examine this this rock and this hard place.

To have integrity and struggle socially and financially, or to lie and have 'community' and meat on the table?

Oh? And these lies? Among the congregation are sensitive young women and men. They are hurt. They are torn apart by these lies.

Empathy. Screw your family or screw your congregation? I don't deny the hurt caused by the clergy, but I do understand the situation some find themselves in. We've encountered quite a few on Ex-C. Trying to find your way out would be troublesome, especially outside of having a quality education i.e. applicable degree.

[Legion]

Empathy.

How about some empathy for the young women and men who are damaged?

[BrotherJosh]

How about some empathy for the young women and men who are damaged?

Sure, empathy goes both ways. Understanding of circumstances. I was one of the damaged young men you mentioned.

[Thought2Much]

I'm curious what kind of job Legion thinks pastors who want to get out are able to get with a divinity degree from some two-bit Bible college, especially in a tight job market. Any pastor that wants to do something else would have to get a more useful degree first, then get another job, then ditch the church. That all takes a lot of time and money.

It ain't as easy as just saying, "Sorry, I don't believe this anymore. See y'all later" and then walking out the door.

However, while still in the church, they could try delivering the least harmful messages that they can think of to the congregation, and undermine the movement from the inside.

I have a lot of empathy for people who are in this situation that are actively trying to get out. I have a lot less empathy for those that seek to continue to profit from it (for example, pastors who receive six-figure salaries, and a church car, and a housing allowance, and intend to ride the gravy train until they die).

Edited by Trapped, 20 February 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Legion]

I'm curious what kind of job Legion thinks pastors...

I'm curious as to what value Trapped places on integrity.

Look, there may be some pastors in this dilemma even now reading this. I understand that you are in a difficult spot. But I hope you are making concrete plans and taking the steps to extricate yourself from the church. Do you want to die knowing that you lived by perpetuating a fraud?

[Legion]

This is fairly typical here, I think.

Trapped who essentially calls for a relaxation of integrity gets the thumbs up.

Me? I get nada.



Down with integrity
Up with duplicity
Down with trust
Down with society

[Thought2Much]

I just don't think that someone should allow their family to lose their home or starve because they no longer believe what they are preaching. I think there's a lot of integrity in keeping your family fed and not putting them in a situation that would require government assistance, such as food stamps.

Just about all of these people once really believed what they preach, which is why they went into the ministry. They saw themselves as God's servants. They honestly believed they were helping people. They went into it with nothing but the best of intentions.

Then one day, just like almost all of us here, they realized it was all bullshit. Except, unlike most of us, they're not in a position where they can just walk away. Unlike most of us, their livelihood, and the livelihood of their entire family, is tied to the church.

Someone with integrity will figure out how to provide for his family first, then leave the church.

[London]

I just don't think that someone should allow their family to lose their home or starve because they no longer believe what they are preaching. I think there's a lot of integrity in keeping your family fed and not putting them in a situation that would require government assistance, such as food stamps.

Just about all of these people once really believed what they preach, which is why they went into the ministry. They saw themselves as God's servants. They honestly believed they were helping people. They went into it with nothing but the best of intentions.

Then one day, just like almost all of us here, they realized it was all bullshit. Except, unlike most of us, they're not in a position where they can just walk away. Unlike most of us, their livelihood, and the livelihood of their entire family, is tied to the church.

Someone with integrity will figure out how to provide for his family first, then leave the church.

And knowing what we all went through emotionally to deconvert. Can you even imagine the house of cards that the clergy face?

It's not just your faith that crashes and burns, it's your entire existence. That is a huge burden to hold.

I would guess that any clergy in that situation would look for the "nice" sermons. I'm gonna guess that logically they are not preaching the "fire & brimstone" any longer.

[marmot]

I feel I can empathize a little with these pastors. I took a job at a Christian school as a science teacher, and I have since lost my faith. I put on the facade of a good Christian, and say the right things when necessary.

I try to encourage scientific reasoning in my students. I am not trying to necessarily undermine their faith, but to equip them to think more logically. I rarely have to teach a Christian POV on science, but when controversial topics come up I hedge and say "a lot of Christians believe this, a lot of Christians believe that. I don't really care what you believe, and I am not going to bias you by telling you what I believe."

I don't plan on staying at this job forever. When my wife gets her MD in a few years, we will move on to another city and I will never work at a Christian school again. I have an exit strategy. I feel bad for the pastors that do not have an exit strategy.

I have considered resigning, but not for the sake of integrity. I have considered resigning because I get frustrated with the conservative environment and with the Christian culture. The damage this would do to my career/mine and my wife's livelihood is what stops me from doing this.

[Legion]

But ultimately we are all frauds.

Oh! I didn't see that you added this, you *&%$# weasel.

Speak for yourself, you *&%$#.


Wish we were in the Den.

[BrotherJosh]

Oh! I didn't see that you added this, you *&%$# weasel.

I prefer the term ferret.