178 replies to this topic

[ireckinso]

http://www.cbsnews.c...ain;contentBody

Link to an article about drug testing welfare recipients.

Now to be honest I like to think of myself as not linked to any political party. I know this is a conservitive movement and to some extent I agree with this. However I'm not so sure that the whole testing for nicotine or alcohol would be legal since those are legal substances.

Let me say this first, I don't believe that everyone on welfare is doing drugs, nor are they abusing the system. I do feel in the area that I live in that most are however. I live in South West region of Virginia. It is an area hit hard by manufacturers moving over seas. Textiles, furnature, and automotive industrys being the largest. This area has a large populus of people without college education, nor experience in any type of skilled labor. Meth, oxy, lortabs are the most prevalent abused drugs in the area.

Several things I see on a daily basis just in my neighborhood. People in assisted living apartments, no jobs, driving nicer vehicles than mine and continual traffic in and out. How do I know they are welfare you ask, because on the first of the month they load up the backs of their vehicles (SUVs,2010 and newer 4x4s, one has a new dodge charger, another has a H2) with more groceries than I could buy with my paycheck, drive up across the grass right to their front doors. And on one particular day when I was outside working in the garden, I heard one yell to the other "WOO HOO first of the month!!" I also see them in the stores with shopping carts chocked full of groceries and pull out the little tel-tale WIC card and pay for it all. And I mean carts, 2,3 overflowing carts.

How do I know they do/sell drugs? Many reasons, first off a good friend of mine who lives across the street is related to one of the city invetigators. Close relation. He has informed me of all the people in that complex who are either under investigation, been arrested or both. Another is the maintenance manager of the complex is the husband of a woman I work and am friends with. He comes over from time to time and tells me everything he sees going on over there. Third, because there are about 3-4 arrests a month and the majority are drug related. Now my friend who is the maintenance manager there is also the MM of 4 other locations that he tells me that they are all exactly the same.

If you want a clearer picture of what I see, watch the movie "The Wild Wonderful Whites of West Virginia." I know that this takes place in WVA but that is about 30 min away and the state line doesn't change a thing.

Now I know most people who have jobs are required to take a drug test to start and have to take random tests from time to time. Why should it be different for welfare recipients?

I guess the problem I really have is that these people have decided to just live out their lifes on the government tit which my tax dollars go to. They supplement their incomes by theft, fraud, and production of drugs such as meth.

The other option is just to eliminate these programs all together, but that would hurt the ones who really need it to make a transition in life instead of just being free-loaders.

I know this has been a rant, but its also in the news and I just needed to vent my opinion.

Edited by ireckinso, 25 February 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Rank Stranger]

I grew up just over the mountains from you in East Tennessee. And lemme tell you, they have the same problems. Same drug/welfare culture. Meth, pills, welfare, and disability make up most of the economy where I grew up. The Wild Wonderful Whites of West Virginia would fit in well in my home town. Most people with any sort of ambition move elsewhere or at least commute a long way to bigger towns where they can get a job. There's really nothing to offer those who stay put. No worthwhile jobs, education, or opportunities of any sort... so they turn to "drugs or jesus". I'm glad I left when I was 18 (17-ish years ago)- and it seems to have only gotten worse since then.

I've thought about this whole proposition of drug-testing welfare recipients, and I'm kinda undecided. On one hand- just like you describe- a slew of worthless trash is abusing the system. On the other hand, the whole thing smacks of that punitive protestant mentality that regularly disgusts me. What happens to these bums when they no longer get their checks? What happens to their kids? It's not like they're gonna suddenly become upstanding citizens and work for a living. I imagine they'd steal even more shit than they do already.

Not only that, but I have a problem with drugs being illegal in the first place. Aren't we all adults here who should make our own decisions so long as we're not DIRECTLY hurting anybody else? Why would I support an extension of our already pervasive 'war on drugs' culture?

I dunno. I have a hard time these days making a firm stand on 'issues' like this. And really it doesn't matter what I think- for all practical purposes, I have no say in the matter.

[Ro-bear]

I'm against drug testing in general. I took one for my current job because I really wanted the job and I knew it was a one-and-done. I would not take a job in which I was subject to random testing.

[Paine]

I'm against drug testing in general. I took one for my current job because I really wanted the job and I knew it was a one-and-done. I would not take a job in which I was subject to random testing.

WELFARE isn't a "JOB", so the comparison is not fair really.

I agree with you, though, I wouldn't want a job where they tested me randomly. HOWEVER...the employer "owns" the job and the products of your labor while ON that job, so it is reasonable that they are allowed to control the conditions under which you perform it.....BUT if I wanted to smoke an organic hog leg on a Friday after work (an who doesn't?), come Monday, its no damn business of my employer. And I guess I am more than free to find another job, or like I do, work for myself and smoke whatever the hell I like.

THAT SAID>>>> IN NO WAY DO I WISH TO SUPPLY GROCERY MONEY TO SOME ADDICT so he can spend his "extra cash" on doobage.

WELFARE IS A GIFT, not a "JOB", so he who pays the piper calls the tune.

Randomly test every one of them. The grandmothers who need the money to feed their grandchildren will be inconvenienced, to be sure, but they understand that what they are receiving is a GIFT. The addicts will fall off the roles and pretty soon, the deterrent effect will save us enough coin to give the grandmother MORE help and STILL save taxpayer dollars.

You want to be even MORE pissed off? Witness this chart about welfare, gaming the system and spendable cash>>>>>

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak

But get the duct tape first....your head is gonna explode.

Edited by Paine, 25 February 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Legion]

You want to be even MORE pissed off? Witness this chart about welfare, gaming the system and spendable cash>>>>>

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak

But get the duct tape first....your head is gonna explode.

This is essentially what I've been saying for a while now. No one here seems to care.

[Legion]

The elite and the poor are killing America.

[ConureDelSol]

I don't understand why there are people so hugely offended by this idea. Drugs are bad m'kay?

[JadedAtheist]

There are enough hoops to jump through the get welfare as it is, I don't think I can support adding an additional one. I was on welfare for some time before I got a job and every few months they would add additional rules or regulations that if anything, hampered the process. I had to fight against being forced to visit an agency in the middle of nowhere 3 times a week as I had to catch 2 buses and a train to get there, and then repeat the process to get back. In those 3 trips I spent nearly a quarter of the assistance I was receiving. Considering how little money you get in the first place, it's quite a joke (Since I wasn't over 21 at the time, I was receiving $200 a fortnight, hardly enough to be "partying up").

[Legion]

The elite and the poor are killing America.

And there's nothing to stop it.

[ireckinso]

You want to be even MORE pissed off? Witness this chart about welfare, gaming the system and spendable cash>>>>>

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak

But get the duct tape first....your head is gonna explode.

This is essentially what I've been saying for a while now. No one here seems to care.

Yeah and this explains what happened to my family 6 years ago. I married a woman with 2 kids, making me head of household of 4, making approx 60-65k a year. She was going to go back to school. for 4 years until she got a RN degree and could start working we had very little to nothing. We had to borrow from friends and family just to pay bills and buy food. Now she is about to graduate with her RNB and we are doing much better. With our combined income we are making just enough to feel like we are getting somewhere now. But with one income, your screwed!

[Legion]

You want to be even MORE pissed off? Witness this chart about welfare, gaming the system and spendable cash>>>>>

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak

But get the duct tape first....your head is gonna explode.

This is essentially what I've been saying for a while now. No one here seems to care.

Yeah and this explains what happened to my family 6 years ago. I married a woman with 2 kids, making me head of household of 4, making approx 60-65k a year. She was going to go back to school. for 4 years until she got a RN degree and could start working we had very little to nothing. We had to borrow from friends and family just to pay bills and buy food. Now she is about to graduate with her RNB and we are doing much better. With our combined income we are making just enough to feel like we are getting somewhere now. But with one income, your screwed!

I've essentially accepted that the larger part of my society has turned against me. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. I'm not even really too sad. I just need to figure out what I'm going to do given this fact.

[Onyx]

I'm on the dole here in NZ. I believe if you want to make welfare better, you have to pay more but make it equally easy to get out of and no more penalising you for working. I have seen that if you get beyond $80 per week working at at the same time as the dole, it means that you are off the dole without any gradual easing into the workplace. I think if you want to promote work, you oughth to make it higher as a threshold as a working condition, make it a maximum or minimum of $300 a week then you might see people having an easier time of it, they don't have to worry about having to abandon the dole when things are extremely difficult.

As for drug tests, wow, that's pretty draconian. I know some beneficaries are on drugs but mostly they are just teenagers who had a hard life or university students or grandparents who hasn't had a stellar career and there's the hardworking people who can't just catch a break. And of course the disabled. I'm in the last group as well as being an university student. I do want to get off the dole but unallievated poverty is worse. So I'm in an Odyssean situation: between the rock and the whirlpool. So drug testing would be counterproductive because the dole is different to having a job; it's a means of living through life at its toughest, not something that requires the utmost focus like welding steel or doing high speed atom smashing physics.

So I hope there's an easing off of the damaging rhetoric of "Welfare Queen", it certainly is a distraction from what the elites of the world is doing.

Edited by Onyx, 25 February 2012 - 08:34 PM.

[Rank Stranger]

What amazes me is that people get all up in arms- damn near ready to lynch somebody- just because their neighbor may be getting a few thousand dollars for free. But these same people wholly support wasting TRILLIONS of dollars on unnecessary wars and the like.

I expect that this legislation will pass, and that we'll see it in lots of states. When we Americans see a problem, our knee-jerk reaction is to punish. Doesn't matter if the problem is solved. Doesn't matter if more problems are created. All that matters is that the evil-doers get punished.

[Rank Stranger]

I've essentially accepted that the larger part of my society has turned against me. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. I'm not even really too sad. I just need to figure out what I'm going to do given this fact.

Well you had me fooled. Not that I blame you- you have plenty of reason to be bitter, angry, and the like. I don't necessarily agree with where you're directing it... but that's not really important.

This country- this world in fact- is chock full of injustice, bullshit, cruelty, etc. There's enough of it out there to completely drain you if you choose to focus on it. And there's precious little you can do about it on a macro scale.

But what you CAN do is look out for yourself and those you care about. To hell with everything and everybody else. Billions of people do exactly that. You'd have the slight handicap of being aware of what you're doing... but I think you could pull it off.

[Legion]

I will do my own thinking. But thanks. really. no. really. gag

I've got your number Rank. It's over.

Edited by Legion, 25 February 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[Rank Stranger]

I will do my own thinking. But thanks. really. no. really. gag

I've got your number Rank. It's over.

It's over... after all this time?

Just tell me- is there somebody else??

[Ro-bear]

You want to be even MORE pissed off? Witness this chart about welfare, gaming the system and spendable cash>>>>>

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak

But get the duct tape first....your head is gonna explode.

This is essentially what I've been saying for a while now. No one here seems to care.

Yeah and this explains what happened to my family 6 years ago. I married a woman with 2 kids, making me head of household of 4, making approx 60-65k a year. She was going to go back to school. for 4 years until she got a RN degree and could start working we had very little to nothing. We had to borrow from friends and family just to pay bills and buy food. Now she is about to graduate with her RNB and we are doing much better. With our combined income we are making just enough to feel like we are getting somewhere now. But with one income, your screwed!

I've essentially accepted that the larger part of my society has turned against me. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. I'm not even really too sad. I just need to figure out what I'm going to do given this fact.

You want to be even MORE pissed off? Witness this chart about welfare, gaming the system and spendable cash>>>>>

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak

But get the duct tape first....your head is gonna explode.

This is essentially what I've been saying for a while now. No one here seems to care.

Yeah and this explains what happened to my family 6 years ago. I married a woman with 2 kids, making me head of household of 4, making approx 60-65k a year. She was going to go back to school. for 4 years until she got a RN degree and could start working we had very little to nothing. We had to borrow from friends and family just to pay bills and buy food. Now she is about to graduate with her RNB and we are doing much better. With our combined income we are making just enough to feel like we are getting somewhere now. But with one income, your screwed!

I've essentially accepted that the larger part of my society has turned against me. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. I'm not even really too sad. I just need to figure out what I'm going to do given this fact.

Holy crap on a cracker! What a persecution complex.

[Rank Stranger]

Holy crap on a cracker! What a persecution complex.

It's a diagnostic criteria for several types of mental illness. The DSM refers to it as "persecutory delusions".

I will do my own thinking. But thanks. really. no. really. gag

I've got your number Rank. It's over.

It's over... after all this time?

Just tell me- is there somebody else??

It's Paine, isn't it??

Well go on then- I'll never be able to compete with an objectivist who has a vagina.

[Ouroboros]

You want to be even MORE pissed off? Witness this chart about welfare, gaming the system and spendable cash>>>>>

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak

But get the duct tape first....your head is gonna explode.

This is essentially what I've been saying for a while now. No one here seems to care.

These facts do not surprise or shock me. That was one of the main reasons I moved out of Sweden. I was working, paying high taxes, net income was about $100 less than if I had quit my job and applied for social welfare checks. I know, because we did have to go and get one at one time. But I liked to work for my money, so I moved to the capitalist America. Maybe I'm the curse dragging the socialist dragon with me. Wherever I go, they'll turn this. I sucks, Legion. I just don't want to work anymore since it doesn't change anything. In other words, is there anyone out there who cares about this just as you do, yes there is.

[Rank Stranger]

Here's the relevant chart from Paine's link:

http://www.zerohedge...come-family-mak




Hans- you're pretty damn reasonable as capitalist/Libertarian types go, so I'll put the question to you:

Notice the the vast majority of this welfare support is either directly or indirectly linked to having kids. A single man with no kids would qualify for little if any of this. Clearly we as a society have a soft spot for kids, as do I. I know from experience that lots of these parents are irresponsible pieces of shit- and without such support, those kids would suffer. So what alternative do you propose?

I'm not saying I LIKE the current system. I just don't know what a 'better' solution would be.