24 replies to this topic

[REBOOT]

Who are 'We the People' ?

Can't this be resolved once and for all or are 'We the People' approaching an important crossroad ?

Why can't anybody be clear about this subject ?

Edited by REBOOT, 06 March 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[mymistake]

The claim that "America is a Christian nation" is misinformation.

[REBOOT]

The claim that "America is a Christian nation" is misinformation.

Lots of crap like what follows appearing on the net these days:

http://isamericaachristiannation.org/

America: Theocracy in the New World
Modern secularists have problems understanding the American relationship between religion and government because they do not understand that the Founders believed that

• Christianity was the true religion, others were "false religions." It would be suicidal to base a commonwealth on a false religion.
• Forming a civil government was a religious duty imposed by the God of the Bible, and hence all governments must be "under God."
• The God of the Bible answered the prayers of the colonists by directly and supernaturally intervening in human history, aiding their revolution against the British Empire to ensure American victory. Not a single "deist" ("clockmaker god") signed the Constitution.
• It is the duty of all governments to endorse and promote the true religion, and make sure the statutes they pass conform to the Bible.

Every single person who signed the Constitution agreed with these four premises, and they agreed that the true religion was Christianity. It doesn't matter that they didn't agree among themselves as to the details of the Christian religion. It doesn't matter that they made sure that one variety of Christianity would have no legal power over other varieties of Christianity. What matters is that not a single signer of the Constitution believed in the "separation of church and state" where the word "church" means "Christianity, the true religion." Not a single person who signed the Constitution believed the Constitution created a secular state.

[dyanaprajna0]

American never has been, and hopefully never will be, a xtian nation. And that website is sick.

[REBOOT]

American never has been, and hopefully never will be, a xtian nation. And that website is sick.

Run this by Palin, Bachman, Santorum and they would vet the contents of that website in a flash. You guys are inches away from a theocracy lol

[Galien]

It don't look christian from the outside. Best porn, best greed, best selfishness, most self absorbed trashy "heores", best in show for loving money over anything and everything. Best at walking into whatever country they want and "helping" with their naturally superior "exceptionality". Best at backing up nasty regimes like Israel, not to mention pouring "aid" money into them. Best at feeding the public bullshit and expecting them to be stupid enough to buy it.....

Actually hang on, this sounds just ike the christian church...(but instad of the porn they just fuck the little kiddies). Hmmm...

[dyanaprajna0]

American never has been, and hopefully never will be, a xtian nation. And that website is sick.

Run this by Palin, Bachman, Santorum and they would vet the contents of that website in a flash. You guys are inches away from a theocracy lol

Yeah, it's starting to look that way. But, I have a theory, and it's one I hope to Buddha is right. We've noticed here lately, that the religious right wing fascists are stepping up their game. They're getting louder, pushier, ruder, and even more insane. I'm hoping that this is due to the fact that rationality and reason are finally starting to win out here, and that the conservative religious right are just in their death throws.

[REBOOT]

American never has been, and hopefully never will be, a xtian nation. And that website is sick.

Run this by Palin, Bachman, Santorum and they would vet the contents of that website in a flash. You guys are inches away from a theocracy lol

Yeah, it's starting to look that way. But, I have a theory, and it's one I hope to Buddha is right. We've noticed here lately, that the religious right wing fascists are stepping up their game. They're getting louder, pushier, ruder, and even more insane. I'm hoping that this is due to the fact that rationality and reason are finally starting to win out here, and that the conservative religious right are just in their death throws.

I'd love to believe that, but long term persistent efforts by the religious right are paying off. GW Bush made sure to pad supreme court justices
http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

If the Roberts court continues on the course suggested by its first five years, it is likely to allow a greater role for religion in public life, to permit more participation by unions and corporations in elections and to elaborate further on the scope of the Second Amendment’s right to bear arms. Abortion rights are likely to be curtailed, as are affirmative action and protections for people accused of crimes.

To reverse that momentum, which has been building up and organized by religious organizations, is going to take a big effort... like everybody needs to get off their fat asses and vote.

Voter apathy is pathetic, and you're about to lose your democracy because of it.

[OpheliaGinger]

I voted options 2 and 4. At the current state of our country, if a politician to be spoke about his/her religion (or lack there of), his/her ability to be voted into office can be severely affected by their comments; it appears that if you slightly appeal to the right wing religious voters, you are more likely to get voted in, but if you take the side of the constitution by saying that there should be nor is there a religious test for office and thus religion should be separate from politics you will get very few votes. The constitution is set up in such a way that it can be amended to suit the times, and if there is enough strong theocratic will to get rid of the separation clause, it can be removed.

[Burnedout]

It depends upon which area of the country you are talking about. The Southeast, Texas, the south west except California and the mountain west you might say Christian. The coastal west, upper midwest, the northeast, mainly secular. Reboot, It is kind of like Canada, just with more people. You have Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, you had guys like Stockwell Day who did well, but take places like Toronto and Vancouver, most of southern Ontario, mainly secular.

[REBOOT]

It depends upon which area of the country you are talking about. The Southeast, Texas, the south west except California and the mountain west you might say Christian. The coastal west, upper midwest, the northeast, mainly secular. Reboot, It is kind of like Canada, just with more people. You have Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, you had guys like Stockwell Day who did well, but take places like Toronto and Vancouver, most of southern Ontario, mainly secular.

The ideological/religious grand canyon has been growing with the years, now poop Benny XVI has just declared war against gay marriage just in time for the november religious elections. That kind of interference/sabotage just drives me up the walls, shouldn't be tolerated, should be decried on every roof top and is against the spirit of an independant nation called USA that I knew growing up.

This Santorum guy should be denounced for what he really is: An agent of the Vatican. Your founding fathers were evading oppressive religious persecution, they're back to haunt you 240 years later.

Edited by REBOOT, 10 March 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[JadedAtheist]

It's ironic in that the US is generally seen as the most decadent country, yet at he same time it's also the most religious western country. The US is a mostly religious country with religion permeating everything everywhere. Some of the most overt religious expressions made by the government were recent changes. Such as having a day of prayer and putting "God" on the currency. Yet, at the same time there is progression with same sex marriage and more people are coming out as non religious or atheists. So, you have these two sides clashing but I think in time the religious aspect will fade. In about 50 years time, the US will be at the same level as most other countries are at today and by then, those countries will be probably completely irreligious.

[Burnedout]

Reboot and Jaded,

This country will always have that cultural divide. The old South (southeast today) is still at it's heart 'Old Dixie'. The mountain west and desert southwest are still going to be where people would run to to get away from civilization. You have not seen Scottland or Northern Ireland acquiesce and become a willing part of the UK. There is still a smoldering nationalistic bent to them. Likewise, there will pretty much always be that in the USA. We are like one big disfunctional family. It has been described when comparing the USA and Canada, the USA is like a very lound and roudy biker bar and Canada is like a very decent and polite family living above it. The USA will always be in an internal fight of some kind. Only something like Pearl Harbor or 911 will bring this nation totally together.

[par4dcourse]

America: Theocracy in the New World
Modern secularists have problems understanding the American relationship between religion and government because they do not understand that the Founders believed that

• Christianity was the true religion, others were "false religions." It would be suicidal to base a commonwealth on a false religion.
• Forming a civil government was a religious duty imposed by the God of the Bible, and hence all governments must be "under God."
• The God of the Bible answered the prayers of the colonists by directly and supernaturally intervening in human history, aiding their revolution against the British Empire to ensure American victory. Not a single "deist" ("clockmaker god") signed the Constitution.
• It is the duty of all governments to endorse and promote the true religion, and make sure the statutes they pass conform to the Bible.

Every single person who signed the Constitution agreed with these four premises, and they agreed that the true religion was Christianity. It doesn't matter that they didn't agree among themselves as to the details of the Christian religion. It doesn't matter that they made sure that one variety of Christianity would have no legal power over other varieties of Christianity. What matters is that not a single signer of the Constitution believed in the "separation of church and state" where the word "church" means "Christianity, the true religion." Not a single person who signed the Constitution believed the Constitution created a secular state.

Theocracy , like narcing, was once reviled but now popular. I still think both suck.

Edited by par4dcourse, 10 March 2012 - 08:08 PM.

[dyanaprajna0]

Doesn't Paul say to follow the government, no matter what it does or asks you to do, and that anyone who rebels against the government, no matter how bad or evil it is, is rebelling against god? So, how can America be a nation devoted to god, when the whole point was an open rebellion toward England? It seems to me that the colonists were rebelling against, like Paul said, what god had established.

[Legato]

If the founding fathers wanted this to be a Christian nation, why didn't they just WRITE IT into the Constitution? It would have been so easy to do! What's more significant to me is that they choose not to. If I'm not mistaken they actually removed the Christian references from the early constitutional drafts. Later the treaty of Tripoli was unanimously ratified by an early Senate that states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Unfortunately this requires a lot of reading to understand, which is to a fundy is boring and inconvenient and doesn't create that warm, fuzzy feeling of righteousness they get when they look at this picture:

http://www.mcnaughto...artpiece_id=353

[BrotherJosh]

http://www.mcnaughto...artpiece_id=353

I love how Thomas Paine's last name is misspelled (Payne). It also says, "even though he wasn't Christian, God often uses good men to fulfill his purposes."



Also, apparently professors are evil Liberal Satan pawns who teach "Darwinism."

[Vigile]

After watching this documentary of DM Bennett's life, I think xians may have somewhat of a point, that this has been an xian nation for a long time. They used the government to ban what they considered smut and then put the guy in prison for his opposition to the law. Not much has changed. Xians have had an old boy's club that has used the government to legislate their brand of in various degrees from the beginning.

http://topdocumentar...t-truth-seeker/

That the US is in many forms a xian nation is not a proud banner and those who fight against it have been the ones who have truly been moral, including Bennett. In fact, xians have gotten it wrong at every turn and have been behind every brutally immoral action the nation has involved itself in, not the least of which was manifest destiny. It's been free thinkers, like Bennett and Paine, et al, that have pushed against the idiots and drug them kicking and screaming into the modern era. Even so, they always seem to remain stuck 50 years in the past.

[JoeCoastie]

After watching this documentary of DM Bennett's life, I think xians may have somewhat of a point, that this has been an xian nation for a long time. They used the government to ban what they considered smut and then put the guy in prison for his opposition to the law. Not much has changed. Xians have had an old boy's club that has used the government to legislate their brand of in various degrees from the beginning.

http://topdocumentar...t-truth-seeker/

That the US is in many forms a xian nation is not a proud banner and those who fight against it have been the ones who have truly been moral, including Bennett. In fact, xians have gotten it wrong at every turn and have been behind every brutally immoral action the nation has involved itself in, not the least of which was manifest destiny. It's been free thinkers, like Bennett and Paine, et al, that have pushed against the idiots and drug them kicking and screaming into the modern era. Even so, they always seem to remain stuck 50 years in the past.

Of course as most of the citizens have been Christians many moral laws have been passed for the sake of Christian sensibilities. Just take the whole mess with prohibition. Politicians can always rally voters with a moral crisis. I'm still not %100 sure if we were meant to be a Christian nation or not. Maybe all the talk about separation of church and state existed to make sure the Baptists didn't pick on the Presbyterians?

The Republican candidates concern me. I took an oath for this country, to die for it if need be. It would hurt if the president is somebody who hates me for what I don't believe.

[Vigile]

I'm still not %100 sure if we were meant to be a Christian nation or not. Maybe all the talk about separation of church and state existed to make sure the Baptists didn't pick on the Presbyterians?

No, legally, the US was absolutely designed to be a secular nation. The founding fathers were for the most part products of the enlightenment era. The enlightenment was a strong move away from the old religious rule, which gave power to the government/king via divine right. In France they chopped off the king's head and established a secular state and in the US we fought off King George and too set up a secular state.