I am trying to push the envelope a little more each time, but still holding back quite a bit so I don't run them off. It may not come to anything as far as their faith, but I love these people and I have to try 
A little background on the characters (all friends from my former church).
David is a 20 year old who goes to church, but has always been a skeptic and a freethinker. He is one of the few people who know about my deconversion, and I believe that our recent talks have helped cement his atheist views and made him bold enough to come out. Plus he's young enough that he doesn't give a shit!
James is a 45 year old who I actually helped convert to xtianity 3 years ago. I have played the role of mentor, including marriage counseling for him and his wife which was successful in keeping them together. He does not know of my deconversion.
Perrianne is a 50 year old lady who is the pastor's wife and the youth and young adults pastor...therefore the relationship with David. She does not know of my deconversion.
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Facebook discussion below
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David: A more elaborate explanation for my statement earlier...it was a pretty vague. ---
"The irony of religion is that because of its power to divert man to destructive courses, the world could actually come to an end. The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge in having in key decisions made by religious people. By irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn't learn a lot about it. Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith, and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction. Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, "I'm willing, Lord! I'll do whatever you want me to do!" Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting shit dead wrong. This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And those who consider themselves only moderately religious really need to look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that religion brings you actually comes at a terrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die." - Bill Maher - Riligulous
James: I am proud of my faith. I am proud to say I'm a Christian. I have seen things in this world from both sides of the coin, and I in my simple minded view am happy. I don't agree with organized religion but I do believe in God. My faith has help change people's lives for the better. Getting homeless people off the streets is something. I remember the choices I made when I was young, I wish I had faith then. I don't fell my Religion is sheer ignorance. I believe what I read in my Bible. Jesus is my savior. The text hasn't changed in over 2000 years. If I'm wrong I have spent years of my life being a better person and helping others. If I'm right i will spends eternity in heaven. My question to those who don't believe, what if your wrong?
David: What if YOU'RE wrong, James? I totally agree with what you said, Sebastian. I won't say that there isn't...but it's not logical and there is absolutely no way to prove it. I don't deny that people have done great things because of their faith, but those are works of men...not god. I can't think of a single instance in my life or anyone I know that has shared in great detail of their experience that could seemingly be orchestrated by a deity of some sort. But then again, it is merely perspective. You see what you will. That's the problem with most people of faith - closed-mindedness. If I could present the best argument for evolution with facts to prove it without equivocation, every devout christian I know would stick to their guns/god. It's bull shit
David: I'll believe in a god when someone can show me the proof of one...if the evidence is ample
David: And yes, he is an atheist Jew
David: There is absolutely no way to prove that Christianity is feasible. The story of Jesus isn't even an original one. The Egyptian's Book of the Dead talk about the god Horus, son of Osiris, born of a virgin mother. He was crucified, then two women, claimed to be witnesses, blah blah blah. It even mentions a resurrection and the promise of a second coming. And get this, it was written around 1500 B.C.! What can you say to that?
David: There are similar stories you can find in ancient Indian cultures that talk about that crap before the Egyptians...so they're wrong as well. If you really believe this stuff, you're ignorant. If you've done the studies to find out for yourself and STILL continue to believe, you're in denial and are maintaining your faith simply out of the fear of eternal damnation, or the promise of some place better than earth... and if in the latter case, why not just kill yourself?
James: Like I said if I'm wrong I've strived to be a better person and helped a lot of people along the way. I don't insult people for their belief. I also respect my parents enough not to disrespect their pastor and personal friends on a public forum. David it is obvious that you are very intelligent, but insulting people to prove your belief is unnessary you can argue a point without being rude. Those of us ignorant faith filled people will still love and pray for you.
Jason (me): While I think Bill Maher is mostly a jerk (clearly guilty of misogyny himself) and David's use of the word "ignorant" is likely over the top, I also think they have some valid points. The majority of believers worldwide (of all faiths) base their world view on things they have not objectively investigated. They take what they are taught and what they feel at face value and become ever more close minded in spite of (and closed to even considering) evidence to the contrary. Unfortunately, the further someone goes into faith, the more difficult it is to take a step back and be objective. It's a recipe for disaster and extremism (Christian crusades, African tribal genocide, Islamic terrorism, etc) because they keep doubling down on what is often a losing bet, becoming ever more desperate for it to be made true by forcing it on others. I guess what I am saying is this: If everyone judged their own faith by the same criteria they judge other faiths, the world would be a much friendlier place.
Perrianne: For me the evidence is sooooo incredibly ample--it fills me and I feel it jump inside me when David and I have a laugh together 'cause I think the phenom of David and his drumming and even his prove it to me personality is one of God's best brushstrokes and the Jesus I know would love hanging out with him.....I live in the momentary evidence and it feeds me and I don't worry about the historical evidence so much. What I don't respect much is Christians that would go to war over the concepts and historical evidence when they aren't living the reality in the moment! Those are the people that created a climate in which Bill Maher can do his thing..... (But even them, I wouldn't throw out with the trash--just redirect to inner realities....that are perceived with an open spirit not a closed mind....) Now I've had my rant of the day....
Perrianne: P.S. I respect you David for what you said about "when someone shows you evidence"--I really do---what you want is an authentic experience. I just think (and this is my personal opinion) that the evidence is spiritual not material. I probably also think that perhaps there might be a "seeking for it" aspect that it's hard to find something you're not looking for, but I wouldn't begin to judge the state of someone else's heart in terms of seeking. Truly.....
Perrianne: OK, last comment (sorry) then I'll go away! I just laughed cause I had the thought: What if someone said, "I'll believe in music if someone gives me ample evidence." I can hear you saying, "that's not at all the same," but in my world it is! LOL
Jason (me):
Perrianne, You said "I live in the momentary evidence and it feeds me and I don't worry about the historical evidence so much." I understand what you mean because I really know you
That ability of yours to live in the moment is a wonder and a joy to your friends and family, but I disagree on the importance of the historical evidence. If one can not have confidence in something's origin, then how can they know what they are experiencing in the moment is genuine? To me, living in the moment clearly has value in many scenarios, but in the case of faith (and other areas, e.g. finances), it can easily be destructive because the moment is by definition out of context and can therefore be highly misleading. A simple example would be: if I have $500 in my wallet today, I might still be entirely bankrupt.You said "...the evidence is spiritual not material". I have to say that I disagree entirely on this one. Most faiths make very specific material promises. In my opinion, if faith is never measured in the material, then it can never be proven true.
You said "I'll believe in music if someone gives me ample evidence". I'm interested to hear how you think this is the same as evidence for faith. Obviously, music can be physically heard, felt, and seen.
Perrianne: well, we'll agree to disagree....the power of human perception is strong and leaves great room for that.....I believe that even science shows that all things are spiritual. (you know that about me, J.) the message of quantum physics is that evidence is not "as we thought it was". This is facebook, not an apologetics session, so you'll forgive my passionate statements that could easily be torn about by a sheerly rational argument. Bottom line is a believe in God IS rational when you see another realm. I believe God is Spirit and has even manifested that in creation if we look deep enough. Again, J., you knew where I stood. I will never come to your side because that side leaves me bankrupt of joy and the things I have seen are more real to me than material evidence that is and then "isn't". It's not denying the realities...it's in believing in a higher reality!
Perrianne: Of course I care about historical evidence, but I care more about what is real in the heart right now...and people quibble over history rather than living in something real right now.
Perrianne: are you havin' fun yet, David? LOL
Jason (me): I think David is likely still sleeping
We completely hijacked his status!Perrianne: yes, we did---we've been known to hijack things, haven't we?
Perrianne: I actually was gonna say he's prob still sleeping!
Jason (me): Perrianne, you know I love you sis
I would never try to tear you down. I think you are an amazing person because you choose every day to be who you are. I think James and Jennifer are amazing too because they choose to give themselves (to the homeless and many others). Any obviously David is amazing...for his hair if nothing else I am honored to call you my friends. How's that for a passionate statement? ! Perrianne: Well, I would call THAT living in the moment! LOL! That's what I meant! That $500 in your wallet is not banruptcy..... (?) ha ha ha
