I Came Out To My Former Pastor

[jblueep]

This was an email discussion between me and my former Pastor (P) over the last few days. I hesitated posting this because it wasn't a public discussion, but since none of you know my pastor and I am not revealing her identity, I think it's OK. I posted this merely to present what ex-believers may face when they come out to people and to further the discussion/education of this forum.

 

Me:

 

I read your facebook status yesterday, and I wanted to discuss it with you if you are willing

 

Your status was:

 

"My passion is to awaken the spiritual capacities placed in everyone by God so that they can really, finally SEE and EXPERIENCE the invisible realities that fill the universe!!!! Only God can do this, I know, but the joy of my life is waving the flag, carrying the banner, pointing the way, singing the song, sounding the call......"

 

I have no doubt of your passion and that you are genuine to the core in your beliefs and mission. I am truly curious and interested in your thoughts.

 

My questions are:

 

What invisible realities have you seen, experienced, and are promoting?

 

Are you speaking of mind-set(s), emotions, etc...or are you speaking of actual, objectively evidenced and measured events, i.e. things that could/would not happen without divine intervention?

 

Much Love

 

P:

 

J, I do and don't want to discuss it because I can see where you are coming from in terms of arguing that my invisible realities are not objectively measurable events....some are (yes, I have been healed) but all of those can be explained without the invocation of another realm if one so decides. My deeper answer is that faith is seeing the unseen--and I do see it. My quest for reality far beyond this visible realm was with me at birth--wired into me--it led me to science AND it led me to God. Through the Word of God and the Spirit of God, I literally SEE the swirling world of invisible truth and with all my heart I believe I have SEEN that manifest time and time again in my observable measurable circumstances. BUT, I understand that this is completely subjective and deist could argue that many of these things would have happened anyway, etc. We are coming from two different realms--almost like I am a new ager and you are a rationalist! That is not what I believe we are, but I am just saying, J, you know me....I have fully opened up my heart to you and nothing has changed. If you are asking to really understand where I am coming from, I'll always answer. If you are asking from this other point of view just have a good discussion, I cannot. What I said in my status is true--I can't say it good enough--never will---only waving a flag for what is real through and through every cell in my body! Even in the disappointments (the crappiest) this reality of seeing the unseen realm--being on tour by the Holy Spirit when I am alone with Him has never left me. I cannot believe that it is just for me. I will always love you but I'm not as socratic as you in terms of method! LOL

 

Me:

 

Thank you for responding. I wasn't actually arguing that your invisible realities are not objectively measured events. I was asking if they were, because I really want to know.

 

I'm definitely not looking for debate. You are my friend, and I really don't understand. I genuinely want to know the basis of your faith.

 

I understand that faith is just that...believing without evidence. If the evidence were apparent, then faith would be unnecessary.

 

You have often spoken of the invisible manifesting in the here and now. What I see in most believers is:

 

1. Believe, no matter what happens

 

and

 

2. Attribute whatever happens to either the goodness or perhaps the mystery of God (in order to maintain belief)

 

Example:

 

Someone has a serious illness and everyone prays for them. There are three basic outcomes:

 

Outcome #1. That person is healed. Even if doctors, surgery, and difficult rehabilitation was used, the conclusion is that "God is good".

 

Outcome #2. That person is partially healed. The conclusion is that "It could/should have been much worse. God is good".

 

Outcome #3. The person is not healed, and perhaps they pass away. The conclusion is that "God knows best. They are in a better place. God is good".

 

In all three outcomes, i.e. no matter what, "God is good".

 

At this point in my journey, the above seems like a coping mechanism to keep faith and to resolve cognitive dissonance. It seems to me to be a prejudicial denial of reality. I fully committed for years to manifesting a hidden reality. It just never happened for me or for anyone I have ever known.

 

I understand "faith without evidence" as an initial reason to believe. I don't see it as a viable reason to continue to believe (in the same way) forever. As a scientist, how do you persist in your specific faith?

 

I know that I am coming off as a complete rationalist, but I do actually believe in (an)other dimension(s). I do think there is more to reality that what we see and touch. And you know I believe in love. I believe that the world runs on love and anything meaningful comes through the choice to love and the willingness to receive love.

 

Your friendship resides in that love

 

P:

 

Hey!!! I actually pulled off the road to type this addendum on my phone! It occurred to me that the MOST "observable " realities I have experienced have been relational and the penultimate experience of that was at [X's] memorial service. No [X] wasn't healed in the earthly terms but there was the most incredible strength that flowed between the small army of his friends and family who gathered to remember him. I remember thinking--though on an emotional level we were all broken--that the "spiritual reality" of the kingdom has never been more real to me--I came back changed by it on a deep level and to see the incredible and genuine grace on his family that was not a put on---it was like in the hardest of times there was a heavy presence of another realm. Now this my experience I realize but it was reproducible in the others gathered there--others who had also hopes for a different outcome. As I hit send I fully aware that I have typed heart words and your fine mind can argue with them but I completely comfortable with the science of the spirit even beyond what I can rationalize . I am beginning to realize--and you and [2honest] helped me with this---I can only offer (but you can't fault me for adding "what an offer it is!")

 

P:

 

OK, I perhaps made a judgment that you wanted to debate rather than understand and then that judgment programmed my reticular activating system to find evidence to support it! But I would submit that you have made a judgment that there is no evidence of the hidden reality manifesting and that your reticular activating system is doing what it was created to do: gather evidence to support your judgment. I am telling you that I have a wealth of information to support my specific faith and I honestly from the bottom of my heart feel every day I LIVE in the evidence. The spirit dimension and truth of God is more real to me than the things around me and that is completely scientific as I read the "evidence' of quantum physics. Reality exists unmanifest. Please don't take this personally, I mean it directed at the broad scope of things: I honestly believe in the light of what the atomic world has taught us about reality that faith (even without what you are calling evidence0 is completely logical. I honestly do not experience a gap.

 

You seemed to question my science, so forgive me, but I'll go a little deeper and risk a little more. You know that my mental capabilities range in the top of the population--that's not conjecture--I have the paperwork. Because of that, I can see way more than I can say and I have lived with the limitation of not being able to say all I see. I can see concepts and their interrelatedness in array almost like shapes in my mind--they almost have form to me and I fit them together constantly. I can only communicate a portion of what I see at a given moment, but I can see truth as a network of sorts, broad and expansive and completely coherent. (I know you are able to understand this.) Because of that combined with an extreme introspective nature and a quest for spirit, very early on, I realized that there had to be a bigger picture. I took a look at life in all its mysteries and came to the conclusion that to piece these concepts together into a workable framework would be a lifelong and ridiculously tedious task. I might hone in on one area of truth but a thousand others would still present themselves. The hope of figuring it all out, I could see, was not only far away but even ill-advised. It came to me at that moment early on to turn to a spiritual version of life (which I first searched for other places than God), not as an attempt at explanation but rather orchestration of the massive amount of data I was able to take in. I found that in being a Christian--not just a little. The Holy Spirit met me at that place of wonder and the rest is history. I felt Him lead me into science even back then and I found Him to be the soundest scientist of all time, but I've never cared to argue earth age or anything that boring! I found Him to be the best research partner ever and we are bonded into this journey together, He and I!

 

I suppose the distinct advantage I had over you is that I was not raised in a Christian home, so I came from the deist/rationalist/agnostic, existentialist hippie mold and found faith quite authentically! I had not the support, but the disdain of my parents at my new found life! I was allowed to roam all over the planet and try things on--from astrology to intellectualism and they never fit, but when I came to faith, I brought all of me authentically and I have never looked back. I suppose the best I could wish for you would be a journey like mine.

 

P.S.

 

Obviously I hope that wasn't meant to "dis" your family in any way--just an observation --I now have to stop because I can think of a million other concepts hooking together but alas must. Leave for now ... Someone once gave me a word "the real answers are in the spirit " and that pretty much sums it up. Have u read c s Lewis'. till We Have Faces? Worth the read.... Hard to explain why...

 

Me:

 

No "dis" taken.

 

I tried every version of Christianity offered...baptist, charismatic, authoritarian, family, and finally grace/kingdom. Grace/kingdom was the closest I found to reality as I understand it. In the end, there was never any confirmation that the Christian God was the answer.

 

I now believe that "God" is man's attempt to answer the gap...the unknown between here and there. To me, when the "outsider test of faith" is applied to Christianity is applied, it comes up no better than any other faith. Christianity has adopted the principles of earlier, older beliefs in God. The story of Jesus, the flood, creation, etc were merely adoptions of other myths meant to explain the unknown. In my opinion, there is no more proof of it than there is proof of any other religion.

 

The bible is full of contradictions and outright plagiarism. The promises made therein are no more fulfilled than the promises in bhagwat gita, the book of the dead, the Quran, or any other ancient text.

 

If experience fails, and the the inerrancy of the bible is easily disproved, then what is left as a basis for belief in Christianity? Once I was willing to look behind the curtain, and consider the possibilities, Christianity fell apart in short order. That is why I am now somewhere between an agnostic and atheist.

 

I respect your beliefs, but I find them impossible to maintain. I believe in love, generosity, and compassion. These beliefs work just as well as they did without the Christian God.

 

Me: (after no response for 24 hours)

 

Love you P

 

P:

 

I trust you can feel the love in my heart back--I've erased far more verbiage than I've sent.

 

Me:

 

Same here sis, although I had a few drinks when I sent the last big message. I might have been a little less blunt without them

[freeasabird]

A few random thoughts:

 

With apologies that this is someone you are close to, I've never read so much diarrhea of the mouth in one place before. Thank goodness the religious people I do know don't talk like this.

 

I'm really surprised at this response: "If you are asking from this other point of view just have a good discussion, I cannot." I've never heard of a pastor unwilling to have a challenging discussion. Is he that frail in his own faith?

 

Is this what liberal Christianity is really becoming, no more than spiritual new agey transcendental blah blah blah?

 

Is it like a requirement for every Christian who's having a discussion with someone who's left the faith to mention C.S. Lewis? Fucking hell, I had the same thing happen to me a couple months ago in a Facebook PM dialogue.

[Chikirin]

My pastor didn't have much to say, he knew I'd heard every thing before. He did tell me that "I think too much" but he used to say that back when I'd discuss spiritual issues with him when I was a Christian.

[jblueep]

With apologies that this is someone you are close to, I've never read so much diarrhea of the mouth in one place before.

 

I think it's her way of resolving the cognitive dissonance...saying it's really simple but making it as complicated as possible. How else to you hold on to a belief without evidence? There was no attempt to answer any of my questions.

 

I'm really surprised at this response: "If you are asking from this other point of view just have a good discussion, I cannot." I've never heard of a pastor unwilling to have a challenging discussion. Is he that frail in his own faith?

 

She takes her faith really personally. Questioning it is questioning her...but that's not unique to her; it's systemic to Xiany I think.

[2Honest]

I've never read so much diarrhea of the mouth in one place before.

 

LOL! I have pages and pages of this shit in my emails and stuff from when we were friends. TBH, at first Jblueep and I were intrigued by her. She has a quirkiness about her and is very different from other pastor's wives. She talked a lot of science and quantum physics - tying them into the Christian faith. When we came to that church we didn't realize it, but we were searching for proof. At first it seemed like this woman was on to something. But after 3 years of buying in to it we realized it was all smoke and mirrors. Nothing ever materialized. There was no tangible evidence. (If we didn't WANT to believe it so bad it wouldn't have taken so long.)

 

I'm really surprised at this response: "If you are asking from this other point of view just have a good discussion, I cannot." I've never heard of a pastor unwilling to have a challenging discussion. Is he that frail in his own faith?

 

This is something that always drove us crazy. We became close to P (who is the pastor's wife but also referred to as "pastor") and her husband pretty quickly when we started attending the church. We had "deep" conversations about church leadership, life, etc every time we were together. But any time we questioned things or wanted to discuss something objectively she wouldn't do it. Her husband was a bit more rational, but she pretty much dominated all the conversations (as I'm sure you can tell). For her, faith and her worldview are deeply personal. She sees it as her mission/calling in life to convey this message she's got. So when you poke at it, you poke at her identity.

 

Plus I think somewhere in the recesses of her mind she knows what she believes can't be true. So she just can't let herself go there, even for a moment.

 

The sad thing to me, though, is that she couldn't get past her insecurities to try to "save" some dear friends. When I read her response I thought, "Wow, don't you want to fight for us a little?" I mean, if she really believes this stuff and really experiences all this wonderful woo woo, why wouldn't she do whatever she could to convince us and help us? Maybe she thinks we are too far gone for that. Or maybe she just knows that she can't win b/c her faith is based purely on things that can't actually be measured.

[Guest Valk0010]

I had to hold back my gag reflex when she mentioned her IQ. Yep appealing to your own authority is very wise. ekkk!

[Positivist]

Sigh. You're right. It's pointless. We are simply lost souls and can only dream of having what 'P' has.

 

But if you want the Reader's Digest version......

 

P: It's True^TM because I think it's True^TM. It's Right^TM because it feels Right^TM. My confirmation bias is all I need.

 

This just proves that conviction is more dangerous and more blinding than lies. It really is very sad! I used to be a lot like her and look what happened to me....

 

EDIT to add: Just goes to show that a little Woo (God Buzz) goes a loooong ways.

[ConureDelSol]

You said she is a scientist. Does she have a degree of some sort? Just curious.

[jblueep]

You said she is a scientist. Does she have a degree of some sort? Just curious.

 

Both she and her husband have master's degrees in biology

[stryper]

I had to hold back my gag reflex when she mentioned her IQ. Yep appealing to your own authority is very wise. ekkk!

 

I understand jblueep and 2honest know her pretty well. But that part of the response made me stop reading. The "I am smarter then you" card is useless, arrogant and condensending. When some has to that, they don't want conversation or discussion, they simply or to oratate.

[jblueep]

I had to hold back my gag reflex when she mentioned her IQ. Yep appealing to your own authority is very wise. ekkk!

 

Yeah, and she knows that my IQ is a few points from hers, so that argument is silly on it's face.

[Positivist]

You said she is a scientist. Does she have a degree of some sort? Just curious.

Both she and her husband have master's degrees in biology

Just a master's? Not really a scientist then I'm afraid........

[Positivist]

I had to hold back my gag reflex when she mentioned her IQ. Yep appealing to your own authority is very wise. ekkk!

I understand jblueep and 2honest know her pretty well. But that part of the response made me stop reading. The "I am smarter then you" card is useless, arrogant and condensending. When some has to that, they don't want conversation or discussion, they simply or to oratate.

I agree. It's like, "Let's just say I'm smart, OK? Just trust me on this."

[Positivist]

I had to hold back my gag reflex when she mentioned her IQ. Yep appealing to your own authority is very wise. ekkk!

Yeah, and she knows that my IQ is a few points from hers, so that argument is silly on it's face.

And really? IQ has nothing to do with belief. Jesus even said that (Matt. 11:25 for starters).

In my view, IQ doesn't matter nearly so much as that to which one applies it!

Meh, I'm a pragmatist.

[Guest Valk0010]

I had to hold back my gag reflex when she mentioned her IQ. Yep appealing to your own authority is very wise. ekkk!

Yeah, and she knows that my IQ is a few points from hers, so that argument is silly on it's face.

And really? IQ has nothing to do with belief. Jesus even said that (Matt. 11:25 for starters).

In my view, IQ doesn't matter nearly so much as that to which one applies it!

Meh, I'm a pragmatist.

I don't put much stock in it, after finding out some of the high IQ's that made shitty arguement for the existence of god.

[Thought2Much]

You said she is a scientist. Does she have a degree of some sort? Just curious.

Both she and her husband have master's degrees in biology

Just a master's? Not really a scientist then I'm afraid........

 

That's a hell of a lot closer to being a scientist than I am with a Bachelor's of Fine Art in Graphic Design.

[Guest Valk0010]

You said she is a scientist. Does she have a degree of some sort? Just curious.

Both she and her husband have master's degrees in biology

Just a master's? Not really a scientist then I'm afraid........

 

That's a hell of a lot closer to being a scientist than I am with a Bachelor's of Fine Art in Graphic Design.

Or a associates degree in liberal arts from a junior college, in my case.

[Positivist]

Both she and her husband have master's degrees in biology

Just a master's? Not really a scientist then I'm afraid........

That's a hell of a lot closer to being a scientist than I am with a Bachelor's of Fine Art in Graphic Design.

LOL! But you aren't pretending to be a scientist. I don't want to sound like a snob. Having a master's degree just does not allow the depth of research required to be a scientist. Especially if 'P' has not spent time as a scientist in her field and has not published her findings. A scientist has an established program of research. Just my opinion. Sorry for being a snob! I'm such a ....lol

[Thought2Much]

Positivist, I don't think you were being a snob at all! Please don't take my response the wrong way! (I knew I should have put a smiley in my post, dammit.)

[Positivist]

Positivist, I don't think you were being a snob at all! Please don't take my response the wrong way! (I knew I should have put a smiley in my post, dammit.)

Thanks for letting me off the hook, Trapped. I do think I am a snob, though..... I have this thing.... In the church I used to attend (a big-haired charismatic Word of Faith crazy-making church), the founding pastors were awarded "doctorate" degrees by the church's associated so-called "Bible college"--some podunk backwater operation with no qualified teaching staff. When one is awarded an honorary doctorate from a real university, you don't go around calling yourself "doctor". Well, these yahoos, awarded a meaningless honorary doctorate (PhD in Woo?) from a podunk backwater operation that probably prints degrees in the basement, actually did start calling themselves "doctor". I nearly had kittens. The rest of us have to work for our degrees! I'm not even sure they had undergraduate degrees.

 

Ugh! I don't know why this stuff bugs me so much. Sorry for being a snob! Eek!

[Thought2Much]

That would get under my skin, too. People calling themselves "Dr" that haven't actually done the work to earn them are lowlifes. For some reason, fundamentalists love to give themselves these titles, I guess to try to create some sort of legitimacy and authority for what they say.

[London]

You seemed to question my science, so forgive me, but I'll go a little deeper and risk a little more. You know that my mental capabilities range in the top of the population--that's not conjecture--I have the paperwork. Because of that, I can see way more than I can say and I have lived with the limitation of not being able to say all I see. I can see concepts and their interrelatedness in array almost like shapes in my mind--they almost have form to me and I fit them together constantly. I can only communicate a portion of what I see at a given moment, but I can see truth as a network of sorts, broad and expansive and completely coherent. (I know you are able to understand this.) Because of that combined with an extreme introspective nature and a quest for spirit, very early on, I realized that there had to be a bigger picture.

 

This is where I got lost also. "I have the paperwork"

 

At first I was thinking she was Autistic and had some really amazing abilities like Temple Grandin or something. But then it just starts to sound like "I'm smarter than you and have the papers to prove it."

 

I am kind of wondering if she has to talk herself into believing her faith. Just an observation.

[Blue elephant]

You seem to have an established friendship and rapport with this woman.

 

Given that she can't change your mid on the issue of religion and you can't change her mind on the issue either, do you want to pursue this particular issue with her?

 

I just see it as pointless and likely to cause bad feeling.

 

Sometimes you can either be right OR have a relationship - but not both!

[blackpudd1n]

It is an observation of mine that someone who is truly knowledgable can explain difficult concepts easily and in such a way that someone without much understanding can comprehend. I have also found that the truly knowledgable enjoy dispelling ignorance any time they get a chance, and will therefore happily discuss and answer questions from someone who doesn't know quite so much.

 

In light of these observations, whatever your former pastor's knowledge, I cannot put much stock into her claims of intelligence or knowledge, because, quite simply, much of what she wrote was not only mumbo-jumbo, but very unclear and confusing.

 

Not only that, but she didn't even really want to talk about it. People who are truly passionate about a subject will jump at any chance to discuss it. Case in point, start a conversation with me about mental health issues. I jump at any chance to dispel some of the stigma and stereotype surrounding it. I love it when people ask me questions about my experiences with bipolar. I love finding out about new research on the topic. But your ex-pastor's wife didn't do that. And that is rather interesting, I think.

[blackpudd1n]

Positivist, I don't think you were being a snob at all! Please don't take my response the wrong way! (I knew I should have put a smiley in my post, dammit.)

Thanks for letting me off the hook, Trapped. I do think I am a snob, though..... I have this thing.... In the church I used to attend (a big-haired charismatic Word of Faith crazy-making church), the founding pastors were awarded "doctorate" degrees by the church's associated so-called "Bible college"--some podunk backwater operation with no qualified teaching staff. When one is awarded an honorary doctorate from a real university, you don't go around calling yourself "doctor". Well, these yahoos, awarded a meaningless honorary doctorate (PhD in Woo?) from a podunk backwater operation that probably prints degrees in the basement, actually did start calling themselves "doctor". I nearly had kittens. The rest of us have to work for our degrees! I'm not even sure they had undergraduate degrees.

 

Ugh! I don't know why this stuff bugs me so much. Sorry for being a snob! Eek!

 

Positivist, you're not being a snob. You're just holding them to the same high standards that they hold everyone else to. If a pro-evolution scientist came to debate at a church, and the opponent discovered that they had an honourary doctrate, would they not rip him/her to shreds and jump up and down saying that they knew nothing at all on the subject?

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If they're going to constantly attack the credentials of real scientists that don't support creationism, then I'd happily do the same to them