Is There A Good Way To Deconvert Others?

[notmohammad]

I have a friend who is making a mistake with her belief in jesus. Generally, I'm not one to care what others believe. However, in this case, this particular and strong superstition is running her life, and ruining it. This young woman was raised as a fundamental Christian. She has promise in my "very technical" industry, with brains, a great personality and a photographic memory of ever person she's ever met, and every event. She loves it, and wants to work in my field. Yet, she believes God will provide her dream job, her dream spouse, etc. Well, I am here to say that it takes effort. It takes dedication. It takes planning.

 

She looks up to me as a mentor and ex boss (I'm 50, she's 22), so she will listen to my point of view. The problem is that I can't simply persuade anybody of anything. I'm a technical guy, and not a very social person. I've brought it up a few times, and I've been unconvincing.

 

My thoughts have always been along these lines: We understand other religions are myth. The gods of ancient civilizations, Egypt, the pagans and so on are easy to disprove. Yet, with Christianity, the faithful won't be budged, even when facts are presented, and seeds of doubt are planted. I guess, it's the "what if you're wrong" theme! (or the "can't you see that you're wrong) theme that I tried, and failed with.

 

I'd like some guidance from those who have been successful.

 

Is there a concise, clear, debunking of the bible? Or a brutally accurate list of "issues" that does not require a month of study?

 

Even the websites that talk about God's hatred of amputee's are quite wordy and are not easily presented.

 

By the way, my name's Christopher, an obviously common Christian name. If I were born in the middle East, my name would be Mohammad. (I see no difference)

[florduh]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

 

Perhaps if she just thinks a god will provide her opportunity and maybe give her an edge, not so bad. If she's a raving fundy passing out tracts and trying to save her co-workers, not so good. Best of luck.

[TrueFreedom]

If she's a reader you could hand her a copy of "Why I became an Atheist..." You could point her to youtube vids... Probably won't work though...

[Eugene39]

What unintentionally worked for me was I read the Bible through in a year.

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov

[Galien]

Why would you try to deconvert anyone else? Faith is pretty personal, any chance of just letting her work it out for herself?

[florduh]

Why would you try to deconvert anyone else? Faith is pretty personal, any chance of just letting her work it out for herself?

I agree, but he did say, "Generally, I'm not one to care what others believe. However, in this case, this particular and strong superstition is running her life, and ruining it."

 

We all make exceptions. I've done it, too.

[Akheia]

Sometimes the only way to learn is through the school of hard knocks. You can't save someone from herself. I wish you the best but gently suggest leaving it at a subtle statement that you don't believe and if she ever questions her religion you're happy to talk about it. The thing I wish I'd had when leaving Christianity was friends I could trust to listen and talk to me without agenda. Instead I had Christian friends who would just try to talk me back into the church and atheist friends who weren't much better from the other team.

[notmohammad]

Thanks.

 

I suppose that Christians have developed a method of conversion over a period of roughly 2000 years. It's a highly refined methodology, full of tricks, manipulation, brainwashing and omission of facts.

 

I'd be silly to think that the opposite exists.

 

I'm not atheist, I prefer to say that I don't know, and that I want my personal belief based in some form of fact. Which, so far, has been 100% impossible to find.

[notmohammad]

What unintentionally worked for me was I read the Bible through in a year.

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov

 

In fact, that was exactly how I deconverted. It was a very powerful experience.

[freeasabird]

Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.

[TrueFreedom]

I know someone who gave a copy of The God Delusion to a bible-thumper as a joke. The next time they spoke the bible-thumper was an atheist.

[Yrth]

This post might have been more accurately entitled, "What is the best way to help my Christian friend succeed in this career?"

 

You said success will require effort, dedication, and planning. One or more of these qualities are missing because of your friend's belief that god will provide her with the perfect job, husband, etc.

 

Two threshold questions:

1. Is there anything else that makes you think her beliefs are obstructing her from cultivating her career? The idea that god will provide is compatible with being ambitious and hard-working. (See protestant work-ethic, Wesleyan excellence philosophy, etc.).

2. Assuming her beliefs are in the way, would a deconversion even help cultivate these qualities? I'm not so sure. Maintaining her basic religious beliefs may well be better for her career than if she were to raze their foundations. Much is lost in the upheaval, there's no telling what would happen to her career path. Along the same line, there's nothing about becoming an ex-christian that necessarily entails effort, dedication, or planning.

[Legion]

My advice has morphed to include something like this...

 

I think if we have understandings of nature then this is generally condusive to our health and well-being. I believe if we are given any system of thought which claims to provide understanding of the world, we may ask if it provides both explanations and predictions of nature as we find it. The predictions should also generally be falsifiable.

 

And this perhaps should be delivered with some skepticism held in reserve for our very selves, because I find it plausible that most people (including me) operate under metaphors (very like predictions) which are grossly mistaken.

[freeasabird]

For what it's worth, a personal anecdote. Maybe you have something similar you can share.

 

When I was at my most devout, going to a charismatic AOG church, I was also in college getting a degree in criminal justice. Now my wife and I married young so at the time I was already married and she knew I had every intention of becoming a police officer, most likely highway patrol. I was also getting a lot of flak from both her and my parents about how worried they were for my safety. Combine this with the fact that entrance requirements between physical fitness, written tests, polygraphs, panel interviews, etc., I would have a hard time getting a good career going with a good department, and also have a happy family.

 

There was a traveling minister who gave a sermon one Sunday at our church. I wish I remembered his name, or the exact name of the sermon, but it could essentially have been titled "What do you want?". It was without the a doubt the most moving and personal sermon I ever heard, it spoke to me personally like none other. I really felt like god was speaking directly to me through this man, I had no doubt in my mind about that. In fact, it spoke to the entire congregation that morning as well based on the sound of it. I don't remember all the words or details, but the basic jist of it was to stop asking god for all the piddly day to day stuff and just tell him what you REALLY want. Tell him what you want more than anything else in your life. I knew what I wanted (at the time) more than anything else. I was begging god just let me be a cop, and get a good job with a good department to provide for my family. It was so clear. God was going to do it, he had spoken through this minister and I was going to be a police officer and everything would work out. I was bawling like a baby at the end of the sermon.

 

Within the next year or so I graduated and pursued a job with the KY Highway Patrol. I passed the pre screening and the written test only to fail the physical test. I was not prepared physically. I was not in the physical form I needed to be to pass. But it was so confusing because god was supposed to help me and get me this job.

 

It was at this time I realized god would not give me anything I had not already worked for and earned myself. In fact, god was nowhere in the equation when it came to getting a job. Things were not just going to work out, I would have to make them happen myself.

[Thumbelina]

This post might have been more accurately entitled, "What is the best way to help my Christian friend succeed in this career?"

 

You said success will require effort, dedication, and planning. One or more of these qualities are missing because of your friend's belief that god will provide her with the perfect job, husband, etc.

 

Two threshold questions:

1. Is there anything else that makes you think her beliefs are obstructing her from cultivating her career? The idea that god will provide is compatible with being ambitious and hard-working. (See protestant work-ethic, Wesleyan excellence philosophy, etc.).

2. Assuming her beliefs are in the way, would a deconversion even help cultivate these qualities? I'm not so sure. Maintaining her basic religious beliefs may well be better for her career than if she were to raze their foundations. Much is lost in the upheaval, there's no telling what would happen to her career path. Along the same line, there's nothing about becoming an ex-christian that necessarily entails effort, dedication, or planning.

 

I would give this post a +1 if I could. Very nice

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

My two cents:

 

How much of the real world has she experienced at 22?

 

The real world, the one outside my home town, school and country, is what REALLY nailed it for me that God doesn't exist.

 

At such a young age, she really doesn't understand how the world works yet. I would just expose her as much as possible to the realities of life and let nature take its course.

 

If she is as bright as she seems, this God delusion won't last very long once she starts getting out there.

[notmohammad]

Thanks all. It seems the general consensus is to "let it ride". I unfortunately, see it differently. I don't know what her pastor says to her, and while I know her parents, I don't have first hand knowledge of how they lead her. However, I see the effects of that guidance and it's not good. I've offered my career guidance (education and training) and they theirs (God will provide) . Certainly, a Christian faith does not have to be a handicap. However, it is in this situation, big time. God does not provide parking spots, money when broke, a husband out of thin air, educational opportunities, good jobs, and tell you to move to locations away from where the work and education is. That's superstition and it has the potential to waste enormous amounts of time. Time that is incredibly valuable, when your career requires training and experience.

 

Let's put this another way. There is a large group of very religious people who are quite violent, poorly educated, subjugate and torture women, behead innocent people, and are incredibly intolerant at just about anything other than the core religion itself. They've become a problem on the world stage. They need to be de-converted. The reality of that situation is that even the "good ones" provide a huge support network for the "bad ones". Yet, they, as a group are utterly unable to see how wrong they are. My point, there are stunningly valid reasons for de-conversion.

 

The facts of life are harsh. It's time we accept reality and move on. In the case of my friend, that superstition is causing her unnecessary problems and hardship. If we are honest with ourselves, a Christian belief does that to varying degrees. From the "tithe" money stolen from the poor, to the wasted time in church, Sunday school, bible study (and therefore the wasted life), to the belief that God will handle your problems and needs. The list is larger than we would like to admit.

 

Once again, in the case of my friend, she is making erroneous critical life decisions based on a huge lie. It's unnecessary and keeping her from a promising life.

[Akheia]

It's incredibly nice of you to care so much about her, and because you care about her I want to ask: you do know you can't save people from themselves, right? If she chooses this path, it's her call. Her choice. I'm not sure why you're so caught up with saving her. I understand that you're concerned about her future, and that's why I want to be really sure why you're this extreme about your desire to deconvert her. When I was in codependence therapy, one thing that they taught that really stuck with me is this: you can't fix someone. You can't make them a DIY project. That's a great way to fall into controlling dynamics. If you give her the information and she decides that her faith is more important to her than her future, that's totally her call. You see what I mean? If you aren't fucking the person in question and you didn't give birth to her, be careful about just how much you get personally invested with her well-being.

 

It's sad to me that someone would sacrifice their future over their faith, but it's not like almost everybody hasn't had that experience. I skipped the prestigious college I could have attended in favor of a state university so I could stay in my hometown and marry my Evil Ex, so I know what it's like to ruin one's life over something stupid! To this day I sometimes wonder what would have happened had I really gone after the degree and career I was capable of achieving. Other people ruin their futures over MMOs, or gambling, or drugs. There's only so much you can healthily invest in fixing these people. The best thing one can do after providing information and offering help is to back off and let the target face the consequences of the addiction.

[notmohammad]

It's incredibly nice of you to care so much about her, and because you care about her I want to ask: you do know you can't save people from themselves, right? If you aren't fucking the person in question and you didn't give birth to her, be careful about just how much you get personally invested with her well-being.

 

It's sad to me that someone would sacrifice their future over their faith

 

I see your point. I'm not that invested in her. She is simply someone with promise wasted. I had hoped for a simple 1,2,3 step "look here" type of answer. Obviously it's not that clear cut. And, it certainly seems that a simple, concise answer to my question is impossible at this time. I'll take your advice and let here ruin her life.

[notmohammad]

I couldn't find an "edit" button to repair a couple of flaws in my above post, both spelling and meaning.

 

Had someone pointed these faith based issues out to me, I would have been incredibly grateful for accurate information. I suppose I simply assume that others would feel as I do, that's a mistake, as I enjoy being introspective, not everybody does.

 

I've said what I can to her, briefly, and as clearly as I could. I'll take your advice and let her life choose it's own path. It's currently heading the wrong direction, but that could change with time. And, it certainly is not my place to attempt to "fix" anybody.

 

I won't make faith an issue again. I've offered good advice, because it was asked of me, by her parents and her. That's all I can do, or reasonably be expected to do.

 

Thanks again for the advice. I consider myself intelligent enough to learn from others advice and mistakes. Good advice has value.

[Weetie]

So let me get this straight. She thinks she's so extra EXTRA special that God's gonna magic a perfect life right into her hands?

I suggest you tell her to look around her congregation and see how many other extra special Christians are out of work and struggling to make ends meet, or stuck in less-than-satisfying marriages. Does she think God abandoned all these people to bumble through life on their own, but He's gonna give it all to her on a platter?

A former co-worker of mine, an excellent project manager with years of experience AND a fundamentalist, was laid off 18 months ago and still hasn't found work. He's also married to a lunatic shrew of a woman. He still holds to his faith, but he's definitely hating life these days.

Your friend doesn't need to be deconverted. She just needs to have her eyes opened to the fact that, whatever her religious beliefs might be, if she sits around expecting it all to be done for her without any effort on her part, or without excercising her own judgement regarding a suitable life partner, she's going to be VERY dissappointed.

[mcdaddy]

It has to come from within.

 

 

Like a vagina.

[qadeshet]

All you can do is help her learn to think for herself. Debate(converse) with her as you would with any other Fundy. Deconversion for all of us was a long and difficult process. There simply is no easy method.

[TrailBlazer]

I'm not usually one for deconverting others of their religious beliefs unless necessary. But if she's this deeply rooted in it she isnt going to listen at all.

 

However if you wanted to be manipulative about it, find out if she's at all doubting anything, find an area of weakness in her faith and prey on that weakness. No pun intended.

[SusanStoHeli]

Personally - I'd tell her some of those little "God helps those who help themselves" stories.

 

A big storm approaches. The weatherman urges everyone to get out of town. The priest says, "I won't worry, God will save me".

The morning of the storm, the police go through the neighborhood with a sound truck telling everyone to evacuate. The priest says "I won't worry, God will save me".

The storm drains back up and there is an inch of water standing in the street. A fire truck comes by to pick up the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises another foot. A National Guard truck comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises some more. The priest is forced up to his roof. A boat comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises higher. The priest is forced up to the very top of his roof. A helicopter comes to rescue the priest. He shouts up at them "Don't worry, God will save me."

The water rises above his house, and the priest drowns.

When he gets up to heaven he says to God "I've been your faithful servant ever since I was born! Why didn't you save me?"

God replies "First I sent you a weatherman, fire truck, then the national guard, then a boat, and then a helicopter. What more do you want from me!!??"