Vigile Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I shouldn't be embarassed what they think of me when I use my brain and reject fairy tales, they should be embarassed about what I think of them when they don't. Makes no difference if I'm in the minority. Dumb is dumb. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Daniel, SO glad you joined the forum. I look forward to your contribution here. I value your opinions and love your way with words. Welcome, friend! By the way - if you'd like, you can also make your introduction a new post in the "Testimonies" section. That way it will get more exposure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Yo! Welcome to ex-C, the most "down" place on teh interwebz! Since you know J so well, ask him how it feels to lose two games in a row of Words. (and remind him it's his turn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 22, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 22, 2012 Welcome to Ex-C, Daniel. Appreciate what you've shared here and via jb's fb. You are indeed an excellent communicator. I started a thread back in April on pretending in order to maintain influence. It went over like a lead balloon. I would be honored if you cared to resurrect the conversation. I would be interested to hear your take on the idea: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/51292-pretending-in-order-to-maintain-influence/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Welcome and I also look forward to your posts, both so far have been meaningful and worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswrites Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thanks for the welcomes! New friends are wonderful. As I hope I said clearly, how you define yourself is a highly personal choice, and is rightfully up to you. I was hoping to ease some of the sting of bad reactions by bringing to light that sometimes it's not just you or your differing beliefs that may make people anxious, but the fact that you have a perceived set of attributes that stem from a label. Leaving beliefs out of it for a second, there are 2 ways to describe something: what it is, and what it isn't. You can be a German. That is a positive statement about what you are. You can be an Anti-Semite. That is a statement about what you are NOT. You are not pro-Jews. You are anti-Jews. If a person asked "what are you?" and you replied, "I am an Anti-Semite," then you have defined yourself by taking a position against something. So my point was that humans pick up on that. If you are proud of your stance — for example, "I am anti-racist" — by all means use those words proudly and wield the power that they carry with the purpose that is of your choosing. Go out and, as someone here suggested, reclaim the word atheist. It is yours to reclaim. You will notice that Christians use the positive. The are not Anti-Satanists. They are Christians. They state what they ARE, not what they are not. So it is outside their way of thinking to self-label by what you are not, as they are very proud of what they are. In essence, their name, identity and PR image is a form of the name of their leader. Others do this too. I am a Buddist. I am a Lutheran. He is a sadist. (Okay - I threw that one in just for fun. But it is true. The word comes from the actions of the Marquis de Sade) For another group to define by opposite is a thing that makes that group different, and an opposing, different force is never well met. Ironically, there is a group that is both. Protestants. They ARE the negative response to what another group IS. They are protesting it, so in a clever way they get the best of both worlds. The "A" word does, as a matter of sheer fact, define itself by opposite. That can rub people the wrong way and they will not be aware of why. Just this underlying feeling of "I'm a positive - why are you a negative? If we were two positives, at least we'd have a chance at getting along." Depending on the person you are encountering, the effect you want to have (or not), the intelligence/acceptance level they may possess to look past a label and hear the thoughts presented, you can take into account how the "A" word will sound. Then do what is right for you. Don't give in to a euphemism if that's not you. Go with a "positive-to-positive" label if you feel like you don't care to have something in your way in that moment that doesn't add to the discussion. Don't label yourself at all. Anything that gets two people to the actual point without misunderstanding or distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GardenerGal Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hi Daniel, thank you for posting here. I like what Brene Brown said in her video: "We make the uncertain certain." Religious/political people have all the answers. Non-religious people often do, too. I like to say, "I don't know". Is there a smarter way to say that? Latin word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswrites Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I used to refer to myself in certain company as a "Recovering Baptist." I got a lot of sympathy, and quite a few smiles :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 22, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 22, 2012 You have an admirable perspective on labels, Daniel. Do you think that you might be able to come up with a few label ideas to describe a person who is pro-skepticism, pro-deconstruction, progressive, pro-logic, pro-philosophy, pro-science? I like "Recovering Baptist," but it probably leaves people with the assumption that you are still a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 22, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted June 22, 2012 You will notice that Christians use the positive. The are not Anti-Satanists. They are Christians. They state what they ARE, not what they are not. So it is outside their way of thinking to self-label by what you are not, as they are very proud of what they are. Atheism is a way (the most correct way for me) to differentiate from the overwhelming sea of theists around us. Assumptions are made when it isn't known that you are not a believer. I want them to know, though that carries its own assumptions for some. How can I state a non-belief in a positive way? The vast majority of adults do not believe in Santa Clause, so there is no label for that non-belief. We atheists are the minority and we do not have a god to be proud of; we just find no reason to believe in yours. Atheism isn't a belief that can be positively asserted in the way god-believers can present a label. In the realm of magical thinking, theists have a label, I do not. It is not a relevant arena for me in the same way imaginary Jello flavors are not relevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I feel a little silly for thinking this, but by the title I was thinking this was a thread about "Abortion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 You will notice that Christians use the positive. The are not Anti-Satanists. They are Christians. They state what they ARE, not what they are not. So it is outside their way of thinking to self-label by what you are not, as they are very proud of what they are. Atheism is a way (the most correct way for me) to differentiate from the overwhelming sea of theists around us. Assumptions are made when it isn't known that you are not a believer. I want them to know, though that carries its own assumptions for some. How can I state a non-belief in a positive way? The vast majority of adults do not believe in Santa Clause, so there is no label for that non-belief. We atheists are the minority and we do not have a god to be proud of; we just find no reason to believe in yours. Atheism isn't a belief that can be positively asserted in the way god-believers can present a label. In the realm of magical thinking, theists have a label, I do not. It is not a relevant arena for me in the same way imaginary Jello flavors are not relevant. We don't believe in Santa Clause because we grew up, so maybe we should just call ourselves "grown ups" ...or anti-child...wait, that doesn't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 I feel a little silly for thinking this, but by the title I was thinking this was a thread about "Abortion" I thought it was about aboriginals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hey, nice to meet you Daniel I've been mulling over why I feel so strongly attached to calling myself an atheist the last couple of days. When I was a christian, I said and thought horrible things about atheists. I hounded them in the pursuit of their souls. I told that unless they converted, they were going to hell. And then... I deconverted. Through a two-year deconversion process, I didn't realise what was happening. But the weekend last October when I lost my faith, I knew what had happened, well and truly. I was no longer a christian. Who was I to turn to? I found this forum, of ex-christians. I started hearing about atheists like Dawkins and Harris. I bought some atheist books, I started watching some docos and reading online. And as I did, I discovered something that shocked me to my core: the atheist community would not hold anything against me. When I first deconverted, I thought that atheists would not want anything to do with me, considering all the things I'd said and done to them as a christian. Instead, I found a community that would welcome me with open arms. I was not prepared for the forgiveness that atheists were willing to offer me. I was not prepared for the support that atheists extended to former believers. Atheists support The Clergy Project. The very people that once railed against them from the pulpit they were willing to not only forgive, but to go out of their way to help as they came out. When I was a christian, I believed that nothing could compare to the ability of god to forgive human sinfulness. Then I deconverted, and I saw that god has nothing on the atheist's ability to love, forgive, and support those who used to persecute them. And to me, as an atheist, because that is what I ultimately am, I feel that it would be an affront to that forgiveness, kindness, and support not to proudly call myself an atheist. People like Dawkins are putting themselves in the firing line, standing up and speaking out and saying all the things that no-one else wants to say, taking all the hits, to make it easier for people like myself to leave religion and be open about it. As an atheist, I am finally free to be myself and think for myself, and to be respected as the person I am, instead of the second-class citizen my sex made me under christianity. As a result, I will always be proud to be what I am: an atheist. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hey, nice to meet you Daniel I've been mulling over why I feel so strongly attached to calling myself an atheist the last couple of days. When I was a christian, I said and thought horrible things about atheists. I hounded them in the pursuit of their souls. I told that unless they converted, they were going to hell. And then... I deconverted. Through a two-year deconversion process, I didn't realise what was happening. But the weekend last October when I lost my faith, I knew what had happened, well and truly. I was no longer a christian. Who was I to turn to? I found this forum, of ex-christians. I started hearing about atheists like Dawkins and Harris. I bought some atheist books, I started watching some docos and reading online. And as I did, I discovered something that shocked me to my core: the atheist community would not hold anything against me. When I first deconverted, I thought that atheists would not want anything to do with me, considering all the things I'd said and done to them as a christian. Instead, I found a community that would welcome me with open arms. I was not prepared for the forgiveness that atheists were willing to offer me. I was not prepared for the support that atheists extended to former believers. Atheists support The Clergy Project. The very people that once railed against them from the pulpit they were willing to not only forgive, but to go out of their way to help as they came out. When I was a christian, I believed that nothing could compare to the ability of god to forgive human sinfulness. Then I deconverted, and I saw that god has nothing on the atheist's ability to love, forgive, and support those who used to persecute them. And to me, as an atheist, because that is what I ultimately am, I feel that it would be an affront to that forgiveness, kindness, and support not to proudly call myself an atheist. People like Dawkins are putting themselves in the firing line, standing up and speaking out and saying all the things that no-one else wants to say, taking all the hits, to make it easier for people like myself to leave religion and be open about it. As an atheist, I am finally free to be myself and think for myself, and to be respected as the person I am, instead of the second-class citizen my sex made me under christianity. As a result, I will always be proud to be what I am: an atheist. This!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hey, nice to meet you Daniel I've been mulling over why I feel so strongly attached to calling myself an atheist the last couple of days. When I was a christian, I said and thought horrible things about atheists. I hounded them in the pursuit of their souls. I told that unless they converted, they were going to hell. And then... I deconverted. Through a two-year deconversion process, I didn't realise what was happening. But the weekend last October when I lost my faith, I knew what had happened, well and truly. I was no longer a christian. Who was I to turn to? I found this forum, of ex-christians. I started hearing about atheists like Dawkins and Harris. I bought some atheist books, I started watching some docos and reading online. And as I did, I discovered something that shocked me to my core: the atheist community would not hold anything against me. When I first deconverted, I thought that atheists would not want anything to do with me, considering all the things I'd said and done to them as a christian. Instead, I found a community that would welcome me with open arms. I was not prepared for the forgiveness that atheists were willing to offer me. I was not prepared for the support that atheists extended to former believers. Atheists support The Clergy Project. The very people that once railed against them from the pulpit they were willing to not only forgive, but to go out of their way to help as they came out. When I was a christian, I believed that nothing could compare to the ability of god to forgive human sinfulness. Then I deconverted, and I saw that god has nothing on the atheist's ability to love, forgive, and support those who used to persecute them. And to me, as an atheist, because that is what I ultimately am, I feel that it would be an affront to that forgiveness, kindness, and support not to proudly call myself an atheist. People like Dawkins are putting themselves in the firing line, standing up and speaking out and saying all the things that no-one else wants to say, taking all the hits, to make it easier for people like myself to leave religion and be open about it. As an atheist, I am finally free to be myself and think for myself, and to be respected as the person I am, instead of the second-class citizen my sex made me under christianity. As a result, I will always be proud to be what I am: an atheist. BP, you should post this on my facebook thread. I think some xians need to see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswrites Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I will say this about labels vs actions. If I am in a burning building and you come to save me, I am fine with you being a Christian. Or an Atheist. I will not ask the root of your moral code that led you to help me. Your label is "The Person Who Saved My Life." That was an amazing story you just told. Please add me to the list of people who are glad you are on the planet just like you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hey, nice to meet you Daniel I've been mulling over why I feel so strongly attached to calling myself an atheist the last couple of days. When I was a christian, I said and thought horrible things about atheists. I hounded them in the pursuit of their souls. I told that unless they converted, they were going to hell. And then... I deconverted. Through a two-year deconversion process, I didn't realise what was happening. But the weekend last October when I lost my faith, I knew what had happened, well and truly. I was no longer a christian. Who was I to turn to? I found this forum, of ex-christians. I started hearing about atheists like Dawkins and Harris. I bought some atheist books, I started watching some docos and reading online. And as I did, I discovered something that shocked me to my core: the atheist community would not hold anything against me. When I first deconverted, I thought that atheists would not want anything to do with me, considering all the things I'd said and done to them as a christian. Instead, I found a community that would welcome me with open arms. I was not prepared for the forgiveness that atheists were willing to offer me. I was not prepared for the support that atheists extended to former believers. Atheists support The Clergy Project. The very people that once railed against them from the pulpit they were willing to not only forgive, but to go out of their way to help as they came out. When I was a christian, I believed that nothing could compare to the ability of god to forgive human sinfulness. Then I deconverted, and I saw that god has nothing on the atheist's ability to love, forgive, and support those who used to persecute them. And to me, as an atheist, because that is what I ultimately am, I feel that it would be an affront to that forgiveness, kindness, and support not to proudly call myself an atheist. People like Dawkins are putting themselves in the firing line, standing up and speaking out and saying all the things that no-one else wants to say, taking all the hits, to make it easier for people like myself to leave religion and be open about it. As an atheist, I am finally free to be myself and think for myself, and to be respected as the person I am, instead of the second-class citizen my sex made me under christianity. As a result, I will always be proud to be what I am: an atheist. BP, you should post this on my facebook thread. I think some xians need to see this. Sure, not a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I will say this about labels vs actions. If I am in a burning building and you come to save me, I am fine with you being a Christian. Or an Atheist. I will not ask the root of your moral code that led you to help me. Your label is "The Person Who Saved My Life." That was an amazing story you just told. Please add me to the list of people who are glad you are on the planet just like you are. Well, of course that is true. Though, that being said, I've never seen labels as a negative thing. To me, a label is simply an explanation. To illustrate, I live with bipolar disorder. My first psych nurse and I were one day discussing the fact that I called myself bipolar, because she was of the opinion that labels such as bipolar only serve to stigmatise and stereotype a person, and that with the negative connotations associated with the word bipolar, it was easy for a person to feel limited. However, as I explained to her, to me the term bipolar is an explanation. It is an explanation for me personally that helps me to understand why I am the way I am sometimes. It helps me to normalise what is abnormal behaviour for myself, understand that that behaviour results as a symptom of a chemical imbalance in my brain, and allows me to work out strategies to deal with my own mind when it is playing up and symptoms are resulting. Effectively, the label helps me to manage my symptoms. Conversely, it is also an explanation that other people can understand for when I am behaving out of character. Sometimes, I'll be having a bad day, and I'll need to make phone calls, or go and see people. Sometimes, things just cannot be put off until tomorrow. So, if I have to go and see the social security people, say, I can say to them, "look, I have bipolar, and I'm not doing too well today, but I have something that I need to get sorted out." As a result, they do not take my agitation personally, and will deal with me slightly differently having that understanding that I am not being a bitch, I'm just not doing too well on that day. If I have to wait a bit, they will direct me to a waiting area where I can sit by myself and in peace, so that I am not adversely affected by other people who are waiting to be seen. Without that explanation, a whole string of misunderstandings could result (and has resulted previously). A whole potential situation just gets completely diffused in a stressful environment. The other reason I openly call myself bipolar is because I have helped many people to see the other side of the condition. When people hear the word bipolar, they often think of angry, violent individuals who are completely nuts and unable to be reasoned with. By living well with my condition, and openly talking about it, I have challenged the personal stereotype of bipolar that many people hold. The most common response I get is, "but you're so normal!", about which time dad usually interjects, "she wasn't always like this!" He tells them that they wouldn't have recognised me three years ago, because I was so unwell. My openess also allows my family to speak openly, and one time, just before last christmas, one of my dad's friends was trying to find a way to tell him that she wouldn't be able to come to their club's christmas party, due to her son having some issues. Dad just said that he understood, because I have bipolar, and sometimes life has to take a backfoot. The woman was so relieved, dad said it was like a weight had come off her shoulders- her son had just been diagnosed with bipolar. Not only that, but another woman at the table for the first time came out and said that her son also had bipolar. Because I am open, two women now have each other and my dad to speak to for support, where before they felt isolated. So while labels like bipolar and atheist can and do have bad connotations, I don't accept that those connotations cannot be changed. But the only ones who can change those connotations are those of us to whom they apply. Just as it is no good a person who does not have bipolar trying to tell others that most people who have bipolar do not fit the stereotype, the same goes for atheists. We are the only ones who can change the connotations surrounding the labels. And we can only do that by accepting those labels and proving ourselves that the connotations do not apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswrites Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Another author here has had this on their mind as well, it seems :-) http://new.exchristian.net/2012/06/i-dont-believe-in-god-what-should-i.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswrites Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 After mulling this over for a bit, I came up with this - not a simple one-word answer, but the truest answer I have at present: "I was raised a Christian Person. I became a Thinking Christian Person. I am now a Thinking Person." Thoughts? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 After mulling this over for a bit, I came up with this - not a simple one-word answer, but the truest answer I have at present: "I was raised a Christian Person. I became a Thinking Christian Person. I am now a Thinking Person." Thoughts? Describes me perfectly. I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Love it. Is it ok if we steal it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 27, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 27, 2012 After mulling this over for a bit, I came up with this - not a simple one-word answer, but the truest answer I have at present: "I was raised a Christian Person. I became a Thinking Christian Person. I am now a Thinking Person." Thoughts? That's probably subtle and humble enough to be palatable for most people. It leaves room for interpretation. I've used the following to state my current position: When a religious topic came up in a conversation, I stated, "I no longer believe in magic." I think that this statement, combined with the absence of any reference to God, got the point across without bringing up loaded concepts. When a friend asked if I still believe in God: "I will just say that I have studied the Bible long enough to know that it's not the inerrant, infallible word of God." He seemed to agree with me. He may think that I still believe in God. As Ex-Cs, I'm interested in your initial reactions to those two statements. Written down they may appear to exhibit more pride than I intended to exhibit in speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 When someone asks me what my tattoos mean, I tell them that "they are about something I used to believe in". Most usually leave it there. Although I've said that in front of a few people who know the significance of the tattoos, and of course that does lead to further discussion. I like Daniel's thinking statement, although my recent experience shows me the xians (just like any biased group) will hear what they want to hear and turn your words into whatever they want to suit their world view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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