It's the first meaningful public conversation with any of them since I de-converted last fall. This is actually a subset of a conversation that was started by a post a friend (Daniel S) put on my wall about prayer. I share this because I hope it might be helpful to some who are trying to go public.
Cast of characters:
Joe - Former pastor's son who was a close friend, kinda like a little brother.
Daniel S - My atheist friend who started the original conversation. I think the fact that I didn't start the original post perhaps opened the door for my xian friends to participate?
Daniel C - Former xian friend who doesn't live in the same state, but is connected to the former church and especially the pastors. He brought his family to visit last year and is planning on moving his family to join the church as soon as possible.
Conversation Below:
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Joe:
I completely agree that too many Christians have that perspective of prayer. the "Magic Genie" syndrome, or whatever you want to call it. They often get so focused on seeing the results they expect rather than trusting in a higher plan and that "all things work together for good". I know man looks on the outward appearance while God looks at the heart. I think God sees all pain in the world as an opportunity. An opportunity to do something much deeper in the hearts of men. I think it is an opportunity to turn mens hearts back to God.
So many would say well, God is an evil God to use pain to "teach us a lesson", But i believe the pain comes from a fallen world. from a world full of imperfect people that created a system of traps like religion that bind people and create prisons for them. So much so that it affects their physical bodies and even the physical world around them.
I believe God uses the messes we have created and our forefathers have created for us and turns them into a glorious story of redemption. This process is not always revealed to us instantly and often looks barren in the moment. I know I am only 24 years old, and how much pain could I have experienced or seen in my lifetime, but Pain is pain, everyone feels it. I think it is because we all long for something bigger, deeper, and more true than ourselves.
Back to prayer, I completely agree that giving thanks is the first order in prayer. It was actually how jesus instructed to pray... "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done"... It is his will that is being activated through the world. For me, when I pray I ask for vision to see both how I can partner with his will and for what to pray. Sometimes, I dont know what to pray. thats when I focus on the heart of God that I have come to know through past experiences. I focus on the promise maker... not the promises. I think that is another typical mistake of people. They focus so much on the "promises" of GOd that they forget that this whole thing of Christianity is about healing in the heart, not getting to heaven, or getting "what you want".
I feel like I am rambling, but April, I apologize if I have ever sent a message across that you "didn't believe enough". I don't believe that for a moment. nor do i believe that "believing enough" can get anyone healed.
I believe that prayer is more about aligning my own heart than it ever is about manipulating God. No one has that power. I still believe there is healing for you, April ,regardless of whether you, or I pray "enough"... or at all... All I know is my experience. I dont claim to know it all.. or anything for that matter. Just a perspective. I love you guys and I give thanks for you and the role you play in my life
Me:
We love you too Joe and I thank you for the thoughtful response. You haven't ever sent us a message of "you didn't believe enough", so don't worry about that
And we are thankful for knowing you and to have shared some of life with you.It's one thing to view prayer as a "magic genie" and another to expect the promises of God to come to pass. Take healing as one example. The bible makes very clear black and white promises..."lay hands on the sick and they shall recover"..."ask and it will be given"..."take your sick to the elders for the laying on of hands and they will be healed"...and many more. Either we should rely on the promises or not. My issue is the justification of God no matter what the outcome.
For example: Someone you know is terminally ill. You pray that they will recover. One of three basic scenarios will happen.
1. They are "healed". Even if they went to the doctor. Even if statistically, their recovery is no different than someone who doesn't pray and doesn't know God (studies prove this by the way). In this scenario, we say "Praise God. God is good!"
2. They aren't completely "healed", but they are somewhat better. Even if this means endless years of suffering, we say "It could have been much worse. Praise God. God is good!"
3. They aren't "healed" and they die. In this case, we say "They are in a better place now or God must have needed another angel. Praise God. God is good!"
The point is that no matter what the outcome, "God is good". One "experiences" God in these circumstances because that is what they are expecting. In my opinion, it's nothing more than confirmation bias. The promise maker is not credible if the promises never come to be. This is irrational and leads one to ask "what's the point?". One might as well pray to an invisible purple unicorn. It's the same thing with the same results. What is the point of prayer and especially of giving thanks? For what?
The fact is that I (and no one I have ever known) have been verifiably healed or seen a verifiable healing with their own eyes...other than "my back was hurting and now it's not" type scenarios. There are tens of millions of videos on youtube and not a single one of a undeniable miracle, e.g. an arm growing out or an eye reappearing...the miracles described in the bible. All of those miracles (conveniently) happened in the bronze age when there were no video cameras. All modern miracles described as such happen in a far off land where no one happens to have a video camera either.
If miracles (signs and wonders) are one of God's tools to reveal himself, then why is he so ambiguous? Why are they so few and far between as to be numerically insignificant? Why not come right out and do it publicly where there would be no doubt? It seems to me that faith, if never back stopped by actual evidence, is nothing more than delusion.
On the problem of evil, "we live in a fallen world" seems like a very weak response to me. The fallen world is because one man 6,000 years ago ate of a tree that God put there knowing full well he would eat of it? It's absurd when you really think about it rationally. Eight hundred children an hour die around the world from disease and starvation.
Around 300 BC, Epicurus, a Greek philosopher said the following:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Daniel C:
Jason, I would like to say that I admire your courage to question this thing called Christianity. I believe that we should all question the things we do not understand. How can we sort the truth from the junk if we do not question? How can we learn if we do not question? You and others have brought up some very good questions. I am not going to tell you that I have all the answers. I have what I believe along with many of my own questions. However, I would like to encourage you, April and everyone who is asking questions. Keep asking questions, keep searching for truth but please do not allow the flaws of Christians or the things you have yet to understand rob you of what you know in your heart to be true about God.
Me:
Hi Daniel,
I know that you are very sincere in your comments and I genuinely appreciate that about you. The flaws of Christians are not an issue for us. As a flawed man myself but also one that fully believed and practiced grace, people held no power to drive me away from God.
Forgive me for my bluntness here, but what you seem to be suggesting is questioning, but only within certain boundaries. I submit that is a flawed approach that leads to nowhere that you haven’t already been. If the end result is not subject to change, then we are not actually questioning. If one says “question all you want as long as you come to X conclusion”, then that person is not really endorsing questioning. If scientists said “study the earth all you want as long as you know in the end that the earth is flat” or “study the heavens all you like as long as you know that the sun revolves around the earth”, then they would not truly want to know the truth.
For these reasons, April and I decided to take just one step outside of our belief system to take an objective look. We fully expected to confirm what we had believed and lived for more than thirty years. To our surprise, that is not what happened. Once the blinders were off, a whole new world came into view, one that made immeasurably more sense. These realizations were not rash decisions and did not arise out of pride, anger, bitterness, hurt, or deception. In fact, as a family, we now live in the greatest happiness and peace we have ever known.
Daniel C:
Jason, thank you for recognizing my sincerity. I am not offended by your bluntness. I have much to share to clarify my comment. However, I will wait to be at a computer instead of my phone. Thanks.
Me:
Daniel C, I look forward to a meaningful discussion brother
***Side Note here: Daniel C sent a private message the next day saying that he couldn't find this thread so he couldn't respond on it anymore. He also said that he had read my response to him on his phone, and so he didn't see all of it at the time. After seeing my full response on his computer, he said that since I had come to a conclusion and was happy, further discussion was moot. It seems to me that he just chickened out, especially since he later magically found the thread after that long enough to like Joe's comments***
Daniel S:
When I was a boy, my best friend and I got into a "discussion" over who was better, Batman or Superman. He chose Superman. He said "Think of all the good you could do with all those powers. Batman doesn't have any. He can do some good, but Superman can do way more, so he's way better."
A valid point.
But for me, it wasn't Batman I admired, it was Bruce Wayne. My little sister had died of Leukemia when I was 5. Roughly the same age as when Bruce lost his parents. I was a child looking for a way to both explain the "why" and try to live a life in the "After." I saw in Bruce a man who decided to make sure no other child ever lost his parents again and became a protector to the very limits of his abilities and beyond. I admired that.
Our voices got raised in excitement going back and forth over it when suddenly my friend's mom came in and demanded to know why we were fighting. We were both surprised at the question. Bobby said, "Mom, we're not fighting..."
"I'm just finding out why he has a different favorite."
She said okay, and started to leave. Then he said, "Did you know his little sister died? If that happened to me, I think Batman would be my favorite, too."
That night they had me stay for dinner and I felt so welcome. We didn't talk about my sister, or Batman. They just made me feel loved.
Joe:
It's always hard in these conversations, because there are so many issues. And I never want it to sound like I am saying you "have" to believe a certain way. I am just sharing my perspective. (Liked your post Daniel). I don't feel like saying I am delusional is exactly fair... or nice.. lol..
As for the "fallen world". I think the tree is also symbolism for how men choose to judge their lives relying on their own abilities. It represents that man thought they could do God's job for me. Which in turn gives me evidence that we cant. There is no such thing as a perfect government. It is impossible to eradicate all disease. There is no perfect system to create happiness..
As for why God doesnt just fix everything, I have two responses too. One, I think the overarching reason is, Faith IS subjective. It IS a personal choice. I think God wants people to love him not for what he can do for them, but for the sake of having a relationship. we were created for relationship. not just with people but with God. If there were no choice to believe or not believe, There would be no Free Will.
The other issue is that I believe for the most part God works through people. I think there a lot of people that dont have real faith. I think there are actually some people that dont believe in God but Do have Faith. And I think God uses those people to progress his will in the earth
When I was 17, one of my close friends died from cancer. through that time I did go through all of those questions of why. and had a very difficult time reconciling faith with the questions. I was definitely in the place of whats the point? I never got the answers to why. If you have some, I would love to hear them. honestly. But after not getting an answer I came to the point of realizing maybe I was asking the wrong question. and began to ask... Okay, Where is the good in this? how can this horrible situation begin to look "good". While Seth's death was tragic, through that time I saw a town gather around him in support. Christians, non-christians, everyone... gathered around a young boy to support him in his battle. that feeling I will never forget. In those moments I was connected to something bigger than myself. It was bigger than me, Seth, the Town, everything. I had joined the battle against cancer, against hunger, against pain. The amazing part was that the battle was not in eradicating cancer and healing seth. It was in removing people's aloneness. People walk through painful situations everyday. the battle (for me) is not preventing those situations, or explaining why, but removing their aloneness. Letting them know I care. Not just want them to get better, But I care to the point where it hurts my heart for them when they hurt. I think that is when true healing comes. This for me is the Kingdom of God. This for me is healing. When people find true joy. This for me is what I find in church. that kind of relationship, where I know my aloneness can be removed. where I know I can remove someone elses aloneness. Sure church is never perfect and I am going to piss some people off at times and I will get pissed sometimes, But I commit at the end of the day I want to work those issues out. and restore the true relationships. so we can battle again together against the "evil" in the world.
Me:
Hey Joe, I'm off to bed, but I'll respond tomorrow. Again, I thank you for your personal and thoughtful response. I just wanted to say for now that I was not intending to call you delusional. After reading it again, I see how my comments gave that impression. I was speaking more in general terms, so I apologize.
Joe:
I think the hard part about that is how the church and culture of society make everyone think we have to "have it all figured out". I think that is the worst thing ever. Life is hard. I honestly dont know if anyone can "figure it out". and I think it is limiting yourself to think you have (not sayin anyone in this thread thinks that
just saying in general) but the moment you stop changing and learning, I think your begin to die. At that point there is no point lolDaniel S:
I LOVE all the kind things you said about how you found Christians and non-Christians come together over something that was bigger than themselves. That is the kind of acceptance that would make a wonderful world. And by your own account, non-Christians were capable of embracing that spirit, too - which is also a wonderful thing. They may have come from different motivations and reasonings, but they still came. They still came.
Joe:
Yea.. I believe church SHOULD just be the continued journey of like situations. Sadly after events like that people often go back to their everyday life; stuck in old routines and never breaking out of their shell and taking a stand to do something to make a difference. I would be lying if I said I knew how to convince people to wake up. I think sometimes it takes terrible events to wake them up. Not saying God causes those events, But I do believe he can use them and thats how he redeems them. Seth's death did make a lot of my friends wake up and realize how valuable life is and the consequences to their actions, good and bad.
look,Jason, I think a lot of people misunderstood when you guys left the church. I think, for various reasons, people took it personally. whether it was that they felt like they had failed you because of their own religious bondage that they are walking out of, or that we really just wanted to remove your aloneness in you guys' situation. I understand needing time to think things through and I respect that. And I hope I havent overstepped any boundaries, but through this WHOLE ordeal, I only wanted you I know and understand your disappointment. I do. and I want to be there for you, I didnt feel like you wanted me or the church there in the past and I took the recent reemergence on facebook as a sign that maybe you were ready for relationships. IDK> I hope I havent overstepped any boundaries again. Sorry if I have
Me:
Hi Joe,
If one believes the biblical story of creation, I think that they have to wonder about the tree of life and “free will”. In my opinion, putting that tree in the garden as a demonstration of free will would be like a father leaving a loaded gun in a toddler’s room and telling him not to play with it. Especially if that father was all knowing and knew the toddler would pull the trigger, and that pulling that trigger would doom most of humanity to eternal torment in hell’s fires. Is it really “free will” if my choice is believe or burn?
I actually did not propose that God fix everything…simply that He never fixes anything if objectively observed. You know that I fully understand the religion versus relationship message. I lived it every day in front of you all. There is action in real relationship though. Even the bible says that “faith without works is dead”. If someone else told you that I loved you but I never demonstrated my love for you in any way other than you telling yourself that in your head, then you would have to question whether we really had a relationship. And if I was invisible, then at some point you would have to question whether I even existed
If we should not expect God to ever do any physical thing promised in the bible, then what other parts of the bible should be dismissed? If we cannot expect God to ever actually show up in the real world, then preachers need to stop promising these things on behalf of God that they personally know full well do not happen even in their own lives (if they took an honest look anyway).
I lost a close friend three years ago. Nelson was like a little brother to me. I led him to the Lord and baptized him in my bathtub. He was killed by a truck driver running a red light. Like you, I saw people come together to comfort each other. They were from all backgrounds and faiths and they helped each other through it. I think Daniel’s point that “non-Christians are capable” is the same one I would have made.
One issue is that most Christians do not think that non-Christians are capable of good. The reason they think this is because that’s what they are taught. You have to convince someone that he is lost, i.e. worthless, without God in order to convince him that he needs God. You have to keep convincing him of that to keep him in the faith, i.e. that God is good and we are only good with God, after all “we are all born into sin”.
I personally think that man created God and not the other way around. Ancient man could not explain the terrifying world, e.g. earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, tornadoes, eclipses. They could not explain the mysterious, e.g. the sun, moon, planets, and stars. They reasoned that those things must be God. This is known as “the god of the gap”. Modern man has explained these mysterious through science. But modern life is in a lot of ways just as painful as ancient life, in that we have to deal with disease and death just like they did. Modern man holds on to God as a way of dealing with this pain. In my opinion, the truth that man is helping man (regardless of faith) is what really gets us through the hard times. It is love and commitment.
Like you, I am committed to work issues out and make/keep/restore true relationships to battle together against the “evil”. I just no longer wrap God into that equation. Having God as a part of the equation excludes those who do not. It prevents, terminates, or severely limits relationships with those that do not believe the same. When I told a very dear friend that I no longer believed in God, they said that “kingdom and friendship are one in the same” and that we “needed to close this chapter of our friendship”, i.e. “we can’t really be friends anymore since you don’t believe the same as I do”. They haven’t spoken to me since other than one forced short meeting. We know that this division is not just believer versus unbeliever. It’s denomination versus denomination. I don’t think that will ever change because it’s the nature of the belief. This makes me very sad.
I agree with you that the moment you stop changing and learning, you begin to die. That’s one reason I refused to be kept any longer within the bounds of something that specifically denies curiosity beyond a certain point. Christianity demands confirmation bias to continue its existence (referring to my previous post where “God is good” no matter what).
You are right that these conversations are difficult simply because of the enormity of issues that could be discussed and explored. I appreciate your willingness to do so, and you have certainly not overstepped any boundary with me. I’m still the same wide open person you knew before, and I love you bro
Daniel S:
If the real question is "Can a Christian have a relationship with a non-Christian without issues arising?", then that's probably more to do with the individual Christian than the doctrine.
You would have to be okay with letting the person go to Hell As You Believe It To Be if that is their wish, and still be able to enjoy all the good parts of their friendship and life with them in your life - without conflict or expectations of it being otherwise. That may or may not require some personal thought first, but it does (if you can do it) reflect an impressive ability to be so secure in your beliefs that you can be completely tolerant of another's without feeling like it's wrong to do so.
Non-believers don't want you to have to struggle with the question of if you can or cannot find it within yourself to be around them. That's not fun for anybody.
Be our friend. Be our good friend. Lets talk about lots of things like friends do. You can be a Republican. I can believe in Bigfoot. Whatever.
Let's just be friends.
Me:
I have come to believe that coming out as an atheist in America, and especially in the bible belt, is like coming out as gay.
You guess that you are going to be rejected based on the prejudice you’ve seen and the comments you’ve heard in the past. You then test the waters a little bit by telling one person. It goes OK. Then you tell another and they tell you they can’t be your friend anymore. Then you tell another, and they don’t outright reject you, but they never speak to you again. You are very worried about telling your family, because family is never supposed to reject you, but you know that might very well happen.
So you don’t shove it in people’s faces. You slide away quietly to spare them the need to reject and you the pain of rejection. But then, you are at fault as well for sliding away without remark and leaving your action up to misinterpretation...for leaving them to feel rejected because you didn't say anything.
It really shouldn’t be so complicated, but it is…for both sides, whether any of us mean it to be or not.
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I'll post any further updates if interest in this thread develops.
