22 replies to this topic

[TrailBlazer]

I have formed fairly solid beliefs that the universe didn't happen the way Genesis described it. And I am fairly certain that the gods of religions don't not exist, as much as I sometimes wish one did exist.

I enjoy learning about science and how humans have come to believe the world to work through science and physics, but one question still makes me stop and really question everything:
Where did everything come from? Why do nitrogen, helium, sulfur, carbon, argon, cesium and the like even exist? Where did all this matter originate from? What was the beginning of it all?

I have the same questions when it comes to 'God'- where and when would a god like the one in the Bible originate from? Does a supreme power exist somewhere? For that matter, what is existence? Would "I" have existed still if another egg had been released; if another sperm had reached that egg first?

Unfortunately for me, I think even Steven Hawking would give his right rear tire to have the answers for these questions. Any ideas? I haven't done much research into all the new theories out there on this subject.

[Babylonian Dream]

Where did everything come from? Why do nitrogen, helium, sulfur, carbon, argon, cesium and the like even exist? Where did all this matter originate from? What was the beginning of it all?

They all came from Hydrogen and Helium in stars, they'd end up fusing to form higher elements. When those stars died, they threw all that matter back out into the cosmos. Hydrogen and helium formed after the Big Bang from a soup of smaller particles.

I have the same questions when it comes to 'God'- where and when would a god like the one in the Bible originate from?

A trend in Ancient Babylon where they increasingly saw the gods as one God. O wait... you were referring to one that actually existed if it did, good question! I've yet to hear an answer from them either. The only answer I got was, God is eternal, he just out of the blue decided to create the world. Just a random creation spark hit him I guess.

Does a supreme power exist somewhere? For that matter, what is existence? Would "I" have existed still if another egg had been released; if another sperm had reached that egg first?

If you still were the sperm that made it into the egg, yes. But you were the best fit sperm, so unless you were masturbated out first, the chances of your survival was already high. But if it wasn't you who made it, then no. Also, "I" is an illusion, you are technically the communication between several parts of your brain. Funny, ain't it?

Does a supreme power exist somewhere? The question seems a little bloated, perhaps first one might ask what form that would take? Supreme at what? Supreme at being supreme? Something can't be supreme without having some aspect of something to compare it to.

[par4dcourse]

I wasn't around at the time, so it wasn't me, but other than that, I don't know.

[Ouroboros]

Where does 2 come from if only 1 exists? 1+1=2. Matter comes from quarks, which comes from energy. In a multiverse, energy is probably infinite and random. Order arises from chaos, and hence cosmos comes about. (cosmos is greek for "order", i.e. opposite of chaos)

[BrotherJosh]

Unfortunately for me, I think even Steven Hawking would give his right rear tire to have the answers for these questions. Any ideas? I haven't done much research into all the new theories out there on this subject.

Actually, we and he, Hawking, does know where all that stuff came from. We don't know the "before" or whether there are multiple universes and how they exist. However, as far as how the "stuff" that is in our universe came to exist we are fairly certain.

http://dsc.discovery...orks-videos.htm

Full episode:

http://watchdocument..._8f7059c91.html

[Kaiser01]

Well for the universe to come into existence you just need a standard for cause and effect, which could be God but that would pose problems of balance and an inital effect that would allow God to "choose" to create the universe. When it comes to matter, Hydrogen, Helium and lithium would of formed about 300,000 years after the big bang when the high energy radiation would of come together to form particals under extreme heat and pressure. The other elements would come from the center of stars as the high energy would cause the atoms of hydrogen and helium to smash into each other forming heavier elements, then those would smash and form heavier elements. This would go on until you got iron which is to dense to perform nuclear fusion so the star collapses and in about a three second window things like Gold, Silver and platinum form.

[Antlerman]

I have the same questions when it comes to 'God'- where and when would a god like the one in the Bible originate from? Does a supreme power exist somewhere? For that matter, what is existence? Would "I" have existed still if another egg had been released; if another sperm had reached that egg first?

I'm not sure if you intended this topic for the Spirituality forum or the Science forum, but I'll assume you have an underlying question as to trying to wrap your mind around the idea of God in light of what we know of cosmology and evolution. I think the key to it is to not try to understand it as a matter of science and reason. Things like 'essence' and 'nature' and 'existence' itself are more philosophical and religious in nature than questions of mechanics.

If you go back to the early Greek philosophers Plato posited a First Cause or a Prime Mover that is 'uncaused'. That was a way to break the problem of an infinite regression you raised, "what caused God"? That's one way philosophically to consider it with the mind, which in essence translates into something that is outside how we normally think of the world, something beyond our being able to fathom - like infinity for example.

Then if your question is along the lines of how can someone 'believe' in God while not being able to address these questions rationally, I would answer that not every experience of life has to be rationally explainable or understood in order for it to have validity. Questions of true/false are more appropriate in the arena of science, to a larger extent at least than matters of existential being. I would use the metaphor of a flower unfolding to the sun. Does its existence and experience of being have anything to do with a brain trying to analyze the photons in order for it to simply 'be'?

We are thinking animals to be sure, but we are more than that, not only through our physical forms as a creation of the universe, but in what we are likewise unfolding to in ourselves. Those are not things that are defined in us by reasoning. It's like somehow we've taken our brains and made them the center of the universe for us. It's like believing the stars orbited our planet with us at the center, rather than us orbiting about in the Infinite. There are other ways of knowing ourselves than using only one available tool at our disposal. How is it we believe it is necessary to grasp and comprehend the incomprehensible in order for us to somehow validate our 'being' and experience truth?

[TrailBlazer]

Actually, we and he, Hawking, does know where all that stuff came from. We don't know the "before" or whether there are multiple universes and how they exist. However, as far as how the "stuff" that is in our universe came to exist we are fairly certain.

I wonder about the "before"; where and why did the helium and hydrogen come into existence? What's beyond our universe? What was there before energy or matter or time?

I'm not sure if you intended this topic for the Spirituality forum or the Science forum, but I'll assume you have an underlying question as to trying to wrap your mind around the idea of God in light of what we know of cosmology and evolution. I think the key to it is to not try to understand it as a matter of science and reason. Things like 'essence' and 'nature' and 'existence' itself are more philosophical and religious in nature than questions of mechanics.
... How is it we believe it is necessary to grasp and comprehend the incomprehensible in order for us to somehow validate our 'being' and experience truth?

I suppose I have neglected to explain my reason for wondering about these questions as a matter of spirituality- in the midst of letting go of xianity, I asked these questions and held on to them as my hope; a desperate wish that somehow, somewhere outside our known universe, outside the forces of time and energy, there exists a loving God who is aware of humans on planet earth.

So as a matter of ex-christian spirituality, how does an atheist deal with questions about the origins of existence, as opposed to a theist belief that there is a god who created it. As silly as the notion of a god-created universe is to me, it does provide a satisfying answer to this question if you believe in it.

As far as understanding truth goes, I've given up. Truth is: I love life.

[Antlerman]

I suppose I have neglected to explain my reason for wondering about these questions as a matter of spirituality- in the midst of letting go of xianity, I asked these questions and held on to them as my hope; a desperate wish that somehow, somewhere outside our known universe, outside the forces of time and energy, there exists a loving God who is aware of humans on planet earth.

My personal views are that God exists within and outside the Universe, but the caveat is that we are that God. We just don't see it. So in that sense, yes, God is very aware of us, inasmuch as we are. We are more than we appear in our minds.

So as a matter of ex-christian spirituality, how does an atheist deal with questions about the origins of existence, as opposed to a theist belief that there is a god who created it.

I don't really consider myself an atheist, nor a theist. There are other ways to perceive these things. But I can say that when I did identify as an atheist I would call myself a 'spiritual atheist'. I just didn't know how to fit an idea of God into my understanding of cosmology, in much the same way as what I hear you looking at.

I would say all things are created by "God", and we are that in ourselves. This is not the external, separate anthropomorphic deity of Christian mythology. There is no master plan of design for you and I to be born as us that a heavenly father looks down upon and raises us as children. We exist as we exist because are what was born of this 'blossoming' of creativity, just as all other forms are. It is us who in our gradual awakening to our own existence through our minds, that create a distinction, a separation of self and other. We see ourselves as 'not that', rather than 'of that', or moreover 'that itself as us, and us as that itself.'

In this sense, even in a child's way of looking at this as expressed through Christian myth, we are in fact never alone. It is only ourselves who see ourselves this way, and through that we experience that separation in ourselves and in the world. The Christian myth externalizes this as a 'relationship', and in a sense it is. It is a relationship of our separate self with our prior self, our true Nature, our true Identity. To me it is about awakening as God, to be united in that knowledge of our true Self.

As silly as the notion of a god-created universe is to me, it does provide a satisfying answer to this question if you believe in it.

I see no reason that understanding the universe as it is, precludes all understandings of a God. What it does do is challenge a mythological idea of a magic-performing super-being out there who plays with this world like a puppet-master in a stage show. That to me is how atheism defines itself, a disbelief in God as defined like this. In that sense, I too am an atheist. I don't believe that either.

As far as understanding truth goes, I've given up. Truth is: I love life.

There is more to knowing truth than grasping it with reason.

[par4dcourse]

Seriously, how much does what happed billions of years ago matter? Isn't the here and now, which is all we are sure of, more worthy of contemplation?
Even if there is a god I'm pretty sure he's not going to make us a replacement earth if we continue to screw this one up.

[TrailBlazer]

Wow. Deep thoughts, Antlerman. I'm going to have to steep another pot of tea and sit down for some more philosophical thinking today.

Another thought along the lines of logic, is what if hydrogen and helium always were and then made everything else possible? Would they be what we consider "god"- going by the definition of a god as creating and sustaining life. Maybe the pagan sun worshipers are onto something if this has any validity to it



...Existential philosophy hurts my brain sometimes

[TrailBlazer]

Seriously, how much does what happed billions of years ago matter? Isn't the here and now, which is all we are sure of, more worthy of contemplation?
Even if there is a god I'm pretty sure he's not going to make us a replacement earth if we continue to screw this one up.

Because it matters to me. If everything was created by something and humans were created by this something also then I would like to know. Otherwise I hold the unpopular belief that the earth is an accident and a blink in the history of whatever is taking place in space and that humans are merely an equal species among the rest of life with an enlarged brain and an inflated ego.

The origin of everything matters to me because if I know where something came from I can better understand where it's going, more importantly; where you and I are going.

[Kaiser01]

Seriously, how much does what happed billions of years ago matter? Isn't the here and now, which is all we are sure of, more worthy of contemplation?
Even if there is a god I'm pretty sure he's not going to make us a replacement earth if we continue to screw this one up.

Because truth matters, man kind has stumbled in the dark for long enough, its time mankind joined the gods at the table of knowledge and understanding. I do not wish to live in ignorance.

[Rev R]

Even if there is a god I'm pretty sure he's not going to make us a replacement earth if we continue to screw this one up.

The mice may.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

~ Douglas Adams

[par4dcourse]

Because truth matters, man kind has stumbled in the dark for long enough, its time mankind joined the gods at the table of knowledge and understanding. I do not wish to live in ignorance.

I don't think "pre-event" will ever be known.

Good one Rev. I love Mr. Adam's work.

Edited by par4dcourse, 24 June 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[florduh]

Scientists, philosophers and theologians have failed for thousands of years to discover any definitive answers; it's unlikely we on this website will discover the answer to How It All Began. I think 42 is pretty close to the truth, however.

[Margee]

My personal views are that God exists within and outside the Universe, but the caveat is that we are that God. We just don't see it. So in that sense, yes, God is very aware of us, inasmuch as we are. We are more than we appear in our minds.

I would say all things are created by "God", and we are that in ourselves. This is not the external, separate anthropomorphic deity of Christian mythology. There is no master plan of design for you and I to be born as us that a heavenly father looks down upon and raises us as children. We exist as we exist because are what was born of this 'blossoming' of creativity, just as all other forms are. It is us who in our gradual awakening to our own existence through our minds, that create a distinction, a separation of self and other. We see ourselves as 'not that', rather than 'of that', or moreover 'that itself as us, and us as that itsel

It is only ourselves who see ourselves this way, and through that we experience that separation in ourselves and in the world. The Christian myth externalizes this as a 'relationship', and in a sense it is. It is a relationship of our separate self with our prior self, our true Nature, our true Identity. To me it is about awakening as God, to be united in that knowledge of our true Self.

There is more to knowing truth than grasping it with reason.

Antlerman...what are all the benefits of having this type of awareness? Is this like the scripture where Jesus
said: '' You will do even greater works than me?'' If we are made of 'god'...why can't the new age (and old) theory of the blockbuster, ''The Secret' be true for us? Is it just a fact of knowing that we have the power to create and manifest? Is this the benefit of 'god within'?

Thanks...always.....

[Rev R]

Scientists, philosophers and theologians have failed for thousands of years to discover any definitive answers; it's unlikely we on this website will discover the answer to How It All Began. I think 42 is pretty close to the truth, however.

I think the eggheads have a decent line on "how". It's the "what set it off?" and "why?" that gets sticky. Short of an interview with a creator on "Through the Wormhole" we are just taking shots in the dark. Personally, I'm not certain that reality always needs to make sense.

[florduh]

Personally, I'm not certain that reality always needs to make sense.

Agree!

[noob]

Scientists, philosophers and theologians have failed for thousands of years to discover any definitive answers; it's unlikely we on this website will discover the answer to How It All Began. I think 42 is pretty close to the truth, however.

42!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!