94 replies to this topic

[sjessen]

I think the two are mutually exclusive concepts. It seems the Bible and Christians and even some atheists think it is possible for God to be both if I understand them correctly.

What do you think?

Edited by sjessen, 12 July 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[mcdaddy]

I've always, even since I was a kid, said its impossible. They are mutually exclusive. Just means giving what you deserve. Mercy is giving what you don't deserve. Another xian attribute of god, debunked.

[sjessen]

I've always, even since I was a kid, said its impossible. They are mutually exclusive. Just means giving what you deserve. Mercy is giving what you don't deserve. Another xian attribute of god, debunked.

One blog I was reading said that being Just allows for being merciful. I can't quite wrap my brain around this concept so I wondered if I was missing something.

Edited by sjessen, 12 July 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[sjessen]

The concepts seem to either blend or be nonexistent in the bible.

Can you elaborate on this? I don't get what you are saying about the concepts blending or being nonexistent.

[mcdaddy]

I've always, even since I was a kid, said its impossible. They are mutually exclusive. Just means giving what you deserve. Mercy is giving what you don't deserve. Another xian attribute of god, debunked.

One blog I was reading said that being Just allows for being merciful. I can't quite wrap my brain around this concept so I wondered if I was missing something.

Whoever said that didn't have their Funk & Wagnall's handy.

[oddbird1963]

I think the idea of "Perfect this" and "Perfect that" is just so much theological and homiletical ass kissing. "Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm you're such a perfectly just god . . . you're such a perFECTly merciful god."

I think the bible portrays the Christians' versions of god as rather capricious and arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy . . ." Of course, consider all those people in the OT who were massacred because they didn't happen to worship him.
No mercy there and , honestly, no justice.

Theology is just the practice of making the unpalatable idea of the deity's caprice seem somehow rational and acceptable.

[end3]

I think the idea of "Perfect this" and "Perfect that" is just so much theological and homiletical ass kissing. "Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm you're such a perfectly just god . . . you're such a perFECTly merciful god."

I think the bible portrays the Christians' versions of god as rather capricious and arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy . . ." Of course, consider all those people in the OT who were massacred because they didn't happen to worship him.
No mercy there and , honestly, no justice.

Theology is just the practice of making the unpalatable idea of the deity's caprice seem somehow rational and acceptable.

Seems like our own existance, our own reality, suggests that since we exist, justice/justification and mercy perfectly coexist. God?

Edited by end3, 12 July 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[Overcame Faith]

I think the answer to your question, "Can God be both perfectly merciful and perfectly just?", is no. In theory, there can only be perfect justice. But it's not because mercy and justice are mutually exclusive. Rather, it's because mercy combined with proportionality between the punishment and the crime form justice.

Mercy is part of justice, not separate from it. To illustrate, let's assume that someone commits murder. If I understand what you mean by "perfect mercy," it would require that the person not be punished for the crime and set free. But that might not be just. Rather, there are degrees of mercy which, together with proportionality between the crime and the punishment, form justice.

Take the murderer again. Let's say he goes through trial and is found guilty of the murder and the jury recommends the death penalty. It then is up to the judge whether to actually sentence the person to death. The judge might have seen that the murderer showed true remorse for his crime, may have learned that the murderer had been savagely abused as a child, and he has some redeeming qualities like perhaps at some point in his life he served the poor. In that case, the judge might show mercy and not invoke the death penalty but, instead, sentence the murderer to prison for life without the possibility of parole. In that case, the judge has shown mercy even though the murderer is still being punished and that mercy was part and parcel of the justice, not separate from it.

The problem with Christianity is not that god never shows mercy according to Christian theological concepts, but that his justice is imperfect. Under Christianity, god will only do one of two things. Either he will show mercy on those sinners who accept Jesus as their savior and bring them into heaven or he will send sinners who do not accept Jesus to hell. There is nothing between those two extremes. That would be the same thing as telling our judges that their only two options are to set a murderer free or execute him. That would be an unjust system.

Now let's talk about proportionality, a concept of justice totally lacking by the Christian god. For god to be just, he should develop proportionalty between the "crime" and the punishment. But for god, it is one size fits all. No matter how trivial the "sin," there is but one penalty - eternity suffering in hell. It doesn't matter whether the "sin" is merely a married man lusting after another woman in his heart (though he never actually touched her) or Adolph Hitler's atrocious "sins", they all receive the same unfathomably harsh punishment. That would be the same thing as our society saying that for every crime, whether speeding or murder, the penalty for those found guilty is death. The reason that's not just is because no one in their right mind would argue that a "crime" so trivial as speeding merits death. Rather, we as humans do our best to make the punishment fit the crime. That is, we try to make the punishment proportional to the crime. Thus, for speeding there may be a $200 fine, 30 days in jail for petty theft, five years in prison for burglary, etc.

So, mercy and justice are not two separate concepts. Rather, before there can be justice, mercy to some degree or the other must be an available option and the punishment must be proportional to the crime.

[sjessen]

Overcame Faith, wouldn't that be considered leniency rather than mercy in the case of the murderer? Mercy to me means you deserve punishment, but you don't get punished.

Maybe like Valk said, it depends on the definition. Mercy and leniency seem to be synonymous in my New Oxford dictionary.

Edited by sjessen, 12 July 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Overcame Faith]

Overcame Faith, wouldn't that be considered leniency rather than mercy in the case of the murderer? Mercy to me means you deserve punishment, but you don't get punished.

I thought that you interpreted mercy as deserving punishment and not getting it. Here is a fairly good definition of mercy from dictionary.com:

mer·cy
   /ˈmɜrsi/ Show IPA

noun, plural mer·cies for 4, 5.
1. compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power; compassion, pity, or benevolence: Have mercy on the poor sinner.
2. the disposition to be compassionate or forbearing: an adversary wholly without mercy.
3. the discretionary power of a judge to pardon someone or to mitigate punishment, especially to send to prison rather than invoke the death penalty.
4. an act of kindness, compassion, or favor: She has performed countless small mercies for her friends and neighbors.
5. something that gives evidence of divine favor; blessing: It was just a mercy we had our seat belts on when it happened.

See, especially definition number 3 where mitigation of punishment is also mercy.

[sjessen]

I think the idea of "Perfect this" and "Perfect that" is just so much theological and homiletical ass kissing. "Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm you're such a perfectly just god . . . you're such a perFECTly merciful god."

I think the bible portrays the Christians' versions of god as rather capricious and arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy . . ." Of course, consider all those people in the OT who were massacred because they didn't happen to worship him.
No mercy there and , honestly, no justice.

Theology is just the practice of making the unpalatable idea of the deity's caprice seem somehow rational and acceptable.

Seems like our own existance, our own reality, suggests that since we exist, justice/justification and mercy perfectly coexist. God?

end3, how does our existence suggest to you that justice and mercy coexist perfectly?

[LoneTarus]

Here's a great youtube video on exactly this same subject.

[end3]

I think the idea of "Perfect this" and "Perfect that" is just so much theological and homiletical ass kissing. "Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm you're such a perfectly just god . . . you're such a perFECTly merciful god."

I think the bible portrays the Christians' versions of god as rather capricious and arbitrary - "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy . . ." Of course, consider all those people in the OT who were massacred because they didn't happen to worship him.
No mercy there and , honestly, no justice.

Theology is just the practice of making the unpalatable idea of the deity's caprice seem somehow rational and acceptable.

Seems like our own existance, our own reality, suggests that since we exist, justice/justification and mercy perfectly coexist. God?

end3, how does our existence suggest to you that justice and mercy coexist perfectly?

Hard to visualize sj. I just see them creating an equilibrium. What is infinite mercy or what is infinite justice. Neither is definable but the joining of the two results in the stability I think is our reality, our existance. I can see myself as needing mercy and justice but I can't see myself only needing one. So I think it would be easy to imagine, "hey, in this situation, God gave me just the amount of mercy or justice I needed....wow, what a God".

Best guess there sj. I could also take this to people on crack and they would think it made perfect sense. So who knows.

[sjessen]

Here's a great youtube video on exactly this same subject.

What a riot! Thanks for the laugh!

You guys have been a lot of help. Thanks!!!

[mwc]

The answer is both. When you make shit up anything is possible.

mwc

[bornagainathiest]

Good question, Sjessen!

My take on this is that God appears to be perfectly just, but conditionally merciful.

The Bible tells us that while God is perfectly just, He is conditionly merciful. What He offers is not perfect and absolute mercy, but conditional mercy. Once His condition is satisfied, He is then free to be perfectly and absolutely merciful to those who accept this one condition.
The deal runs something like this.

1.
Initially God had no need to demonstrate His justice or His mercy because Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil. They could neither deliberately nor inadvertantly think, do or say anything unjust, evil or sinful. Without evil and wrongdoing there is no need for either justice or mercy. If all three parties (God, Adam and Eve) were incapable of evil, then none could wrong the other. Justice and mercy need not exist where there is no possible need for them.

2.
Once Adam and Eve fell from innocence and grace, wrongdoing came into existence and the need for justice and mercy also came into existence. (Please note that I'm not talking about any events prior to Genesis and Eden, like Satan's rebellion against God. Since God does not change, His justice must be an eternal quality of His nature.) Now fast forward to the time of Jesus. Christ took the penalty for mankind's sin, thus opening a way for God to temper His absolute and perfect justice with conditional mercy.

3.
God's innate justice demands that wrongdoing be punished. He cannot unbend from this because to do so would be to violate His own nature. Therefore, He incarnated Himself as a human and took the demanded penalty of everyone's behalf. Once a punishment has been justly meted out, justice is satisfied and the person punished is no longer guilty of their wrongdoing. Their punishment renders them innocent. The Bible claims that Jesus fully satisfied God the Father's justice by rising from the dead - washed clean of all sin and perfectly innocent again. That is why Jesus could return to the Father. Only the pure and innocent can enter into the Father's presence. In the same way, Adam and Eve were innocent and could be in God's close presence, but that changed once they disobeyed His command about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

4.
To sum up...
God is perfectly just and cannot change from that absolute ideal. However, He is merciful too. Just not absolutely merciful.
No. There is a condition to His mercy. The condition is that anyone who believes in His Son and in Jesus' sacrifice can obtain mercy from God the Father. That is why believers are baptized into Jesus. By being made one flesh with the risen and glorified Son, they not only receive the Father's mercy but they also share in all of the rights and priveleges enjoyed by Jesus. That's why true believers will become co-inheritors of the Kingdom of Heaven. That's why they will hold co-dominion over the angels (the cause of Satan's fall). That's why the spirits of Christians will be clothed in new, indestrucible flesh on Judgement Day. Etc., etc.

So, the bottom line Sjessen, is that God is perfectly just, but conditionally merciful. Jesus is the condition we must accept to receive God's mercy. One that condition is accepted, God's mercy towards us is PERFECT.

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Now, all of this holds true only if certain other things are true.

All of the above only holds good IF there was a real and historical Fall from Grace.

All of the above only holds good IF Jesus really and historically rose from the dead.

All of the above only holds good IF the Bible is a reliable source of real and historical information.

All of the above only holds good IF the claims made in the Bible can be seen to be really and historially true.
.
.
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Otherwise, as MWC neatly puts it, "When you make shit up, anything is possible".

Thanks,

BAA.

[Babylonian Dream]

When I was a kid, I thought I would grow up, me and my little brother, to be the strongest men in the whole wide world. We needed big words and big things to show that we were great. The same childlike absolute greatness logic, where everything needs to be the biggest possible in order to be valid, is what I see behind these "perfectly", "omni-", "everything", etc...

Remember kids at a park when you were little, "I'll always be your friend if you..." or "I'll never be your friend if you don't...."?

It's exaggeration, from minds that that are immature, being used by supposedly mature minds.