44 replies to this topic

[end3]

I believe many here are advocates for responsibility, over suffering and grace that I gather as one of the messages the Bible renders.

And I personally can see that I have a choice as what direction I choose when dealing with others. Whether I believe they are right or wrong in an assessment, I can choose to be responsible for my reaction(s)......which makes some sense.

So what is the relationship to suffering here? To suffer, I would have to, IMO, manage my feelings based on whether I assessed myself correct or not within a relationship?

For example, if I believe I am right, then responsibility can be suffering another's decision or ignorance?

[mcdaddy]

We suffer your decisions and ignorance almost every day on here End.

[mcdaddy]

I don't think it's your "responsibility" to do so though. You may even have a responsibility to do the opposite, to correct what you see is error.

But when you have no real facts or evidence to back up your assertions, then you lose that "responsibility".

[GardenerGal]

I think many here are advocates for responsibility and self-examination over prayer.

[florduh]

Sometimes it's better to be kind than right.

[end3]

All good thoughts. But, and I have my limits certainly.......but isn't this a place where the line has been mostly drawn on suffering and grace?

Don't get me wrong, I see responsibility as a darn useful tool, yet I am on many occasions unable to take a level of responsibility that is not detrimental to a relationship.

Also, and this is a biggie.....is there a point where responsibility enables another of their moral/social responsibility?

[oddbird1963]

So, are you asking , "Why do I have to put up with this shit?"

In the context of any relationship , be it work, social or family related, you have to assess the pros versus the cons of taking measures to end the suffering that you are experiencing. It is a risk vs reward evaluation process that is often inexact and fraught with error due to unforseen reactions and consequences. In fact, engaging in the process can itself bring about some measure of suffering.

In the context of a job, you have to decide if you are ready to give up the job and its attendent pay and privileges if you are going to choose to not put up with people whose choices you do not like.

Suffering is a by product of choice. Not in all cases of suffering, of course. But our choices may lead to eventual happiness with episodes of suffering along the way. Or, we may coast along in relative bliss and suddenly, without warning, end up suffering due to some unintended consequences of a series of choices that, up to now, brought us relative bliss.

I think you are using responsibility in a broad way, so without more context I wouldn't know how to address your "biggie" question.

[bornagainathiest]

I believe many here are advocates for responsibility, over suffering and grace that I gather as one of the messages the Bible renders.

And I personally can see that I have a choice as what direction I choose when dealing with others. Whether I believe they are right or wrong in an assessment, I can choose to be responsible for my reaction(s)......which makes some sense.

So what is the relationship to suffering here? To suffer, I would have to, IMO, manage my feelings based on whether I assessed myself correct or not within a relationship?

For example, if I believe I am right, then responsibility can be suffering another's decision or ignorance?

<sub>While humans are responsible for some suffering, the ultimate responsibility for our condition lies at the door of the one who set up the conditions in the first place.

As discussed here...

http://www.ex-christ...st/page__st__80

...#88 onwards.

How about dealing with the BIG ISSUE first End, before talking about small potatoes like our personal responsibilities?

BAA.</sub>

[Spectrox]

I believe many here are advocates for responsibility, over suffering and grace that I gather as one of the messages the Bible renders.

And I personally can see that I have a choice as what direction I choose when dealing with others. Whether I believe they are right or wrong in an assessment, I can choose to be responsible for my reaction(s)......which makes some sense.

So what is the relationship to suffering here? To suffer, I would have to, IMO, manage my feelings based on whether I assessed myself correct or not within a relationship?

For example, if I believe I am right, then responsibility can be suffering another's decision or ignorance?

Why are you still playing this strange psychological game with yourself? Give it up. It's nonsense.

Responsibility doesn't have to be about blame or guilt. The clue is in the word. Response Ability. The ability to respond. The Bible is so screwed up and out of touch with reality that it hinders any genuine response to every situation I can think of.

[end3]

Responsibility doesn't have to be about blame or guilt. The clue is in the word. Response Ability. The ability to respond. The Bible is so screwed up and out of touch with reality that it hinders any genuine response to every situation I can think of.

"Choice", IMO describes at least a dichotomy. I am at a loss for other choices you are describing?

[end3]

We all know Picard is just make believe Valk

[roadrunner]

Responsibility doesn't have to be about blame or guilt. The clue is in the word. Response Ability. The ability to respond. The Bible is so screwed up and out of touch with reality that it hinders any genuine response to every situation I can think of.

"Choice", IMO describes at least a dichotomy. I am at a loss for other choices you are describing?

though this is a very confusing topic and it has quickly spun to a level of complexity that I am not ready to sift though at the moment but I will at least try to grasp this....

IMO choices are very complex because they have residual effects. To the christian, you are either in gods will or out of gods will and this DOES split reality into Black and White. In the real world we acknowledge the complexity of choices and redefine right and wrong based on the situation in which it is applied. The bible is very specific about what is GOOD and what is BAD. RIGHT WRONG. HEAVEN or HELL/SEPARATION FROM GOD (depending on how much you've decided to bend). The bible does condone moral absolutes and absolute truth which (to me) fall in the category of dichotomy.

Edited by roadrunner, 19 July 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[raoul]

We all know Picard is just make believe Valk

I was just making the point that, it seems like your question is based off a wrong premise.

they're VERY good at creating false premises, aka strawmen, and then arguing from same.

[raoul]

I believe many here are advocates for responsibility, over suffering and grace that I gather as one of the messages the Bible renders.

And I personally can see that I have a choice as what direction I choose when dealing with others. Whether I believe they are right or wrong in an assessment, I can choose to be responsible for my reaction(s)......which makes some sense.

So what is the relationship to suffering here? To suffer, I would have to, IMO, manage my feelings based on whether I assessed myself correct or not within a relationship?

For example, if I believe I am right, then responsibility can be suffering another's decision or ignorance?

I haven't the SLIGHTEST idea of what the fuck you are talking about. However, since you're a bible thumper, abeit a very subtle one, I'll quote a verse from Jesus himself. He said 'shit happens, get used to it'

That's a very loose translation of mine based on 21st century rational thought. It was from where he spoke about the tower falling and killing some people. Understood? No big philosophical garbage - just reality 101. Shit happens, deal with it.

[end3]

I believe many here are advocates for responsibility, over suffering and grace that I gather as one of the messages the Bible renders.

And I personally can see that I have a choice as what direction I choose when dealing with others. Whether I believe they are right or wrong in an assessment, I can choose to be responsible for my reaction(s)......which makes some sense.

So what is the relationship to suffering here? To suffer, I would have to, IMO, manage my feelings based on whether I assessed myself correct or not within a relationship?

For example, if I believe I am right, then responsibility can be suffering another's decision or ignorance?

I haven't the SLIGHTEST idea of what the fuck you are talking about. However, since you're a bible thumper, abeit a very subtle one, I'll quote a verse from Jesus himself. He said 'shit happens, get used to it'

That's a very loose translation of mine based on 21st century rational thought. It was from where he spoke about the tower falling and killing some people. Understood? No big philosophical garbage - just reality 101. Shit happens, deal with it.

Well, here's the deal R. A person can go through life destroying life and those perceived qualities or one can move through supporting life. I have no problem "dealing with shit", it's that I need help exacting my method to facilitate the latter. A falling tower is one thing, an intentional destructive (human) tower is another. I belive in Christian terms being "reborn" is the term.

Edit: For example R. In my mind I pretty much think you're an ass by you repeated attacks on me, but, BUT, I have chosen (see above), to be nice so that it will facilitate good stuff, i.e. life in your reality. See, it's pretty easy. If I choose to follow my "worldly spirit", then I would be happy that you were unhappy for the rest of your hatefilled days. Just an illustration that you might catch on quicker....

Edited by end3, 19 July 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[raoul]

I believe many here are advocates for responsibility, over suffering and grace that I gather as one of the messages the Bible renders.

And I personally can see that I have a choice as what direction I choose when dealing with others. Whether I believe they are right or wrong in an assessment, I can choose to be responsible for my reaction(s)......which makes some sense.

So what is the relationship to suffering here? To suffer, I would have to, IMO, manage my feelings based on whether I assessed myself correct or not within a relationship?

For example, if I believe I am right, then responsibility can be suffering another's decision or ignorance?

I haven't the SLIGHTEST idea of what the fuck you are talking about. However, since you're a bible thumper, abeit a very subtle one, I'll quote a verse from Jesus himself. He said 'shit happens, get used to it'

That's a very loose translation of mine based on 21st century rational thought. It was from where he spoke about the tower falling and killing some people. Understood? No big philosophical garbage - just reality 101. Shit happens, deal with it.

Well, here's the deal R. A person can go through life destroying life and those perceived qualities or one can move through supporting life. I have no problem "dealing with shit", it's that I need help exacting my method to facilitate the latter. A falling tower is one thing, an intentional destructive (human) tower is another. I belive in Christian terms being "reborn" is the term.

Edit: For example R. In my mind I pretty much think you're an ass by you repeated attacks on me, but, BUT, I have chosen (see above), to be nice so that it will facilitate good stuff, i.e. life in your reality. See, it's pretty easy. If I choose to follow my "worldly spirit", then I would be happy that you were unhappy for the rest of your hatefilled days. Just an illustration that you might catch on quicker....

What is it about you freaking Jaysus freaks with the 'hatefilled' accusations? Nothing I responded with had one fucking iota of 'hate'. Lots of sarcasm? Of course. But 'hate' per se, nope.But at least you didn't say I was 'bitter' like so many of your kind love to use when confronted with a challenge they can't respond to. You also claim I have attacked you repeatedly? I believe I may have responded to just a couple of idiotic things you posted but nothing like what I am REALLY capable of doing. You've gotten off easy bud so get on your knees and thank you know who. LOL

but yes I would definitely agree that I am an 'ass' since I actually wasted time even responding to you. I notice how you just tapdanced around my rather brilliant quote of Jesus and just preached, once more. Always nice chatting with you.. ROFL

[end3]

I believe the hatefilled thing from Christians comes from the state of which many are pursing this dichotomy. For example, lacking tolerance as a means of defense or choice in dealing the a relationship, Christianity in this case, is very common here. "I'm not open to it", "It hurt me" etc are evidence of not wanting to make a choice on behalf of the Christian visitor to facilitate THEIR beliefs/life. No biggie.

Tone here R.....profanity comes across as anger and hate IMO.....

Give the the verses you were describing because in your brilliant paraphrasing, I have no clue what story you are interpreting.

And Lord, please help R not unload his deadly torrent of personality on me in my meekness. As always, thanks Lord,.

[Spectrox]

Responsibility doesn't have to be about blame or guilt. The clue is in the word. Response Ability. The ability to respond. The Bible is so screwed up and out of touch with reality that it hinders any genuine response to every situation I can think of.

"Choice", IMO describes at least a dichotomy. I am at a loss for other choices you are describing?

From your signature, you still seem to be Klinging on to what the Bible spouts. Are you a Klingon?

The only definition of morality that makes any sense to me is behaving in such a way as to maximise the benefit to myself and others and minimising the harm to myself and others. The Bible fails spectacularly in this regard what with God's support of genocide, slavery, sexism, homophobia, eternal hellfire and damnation. Why complicate things by referring to the Bible?

Maximising the benefit to myself and others occasionally means challenging immorality, the Bible being particularly obscene in this regard.

All you can do in life is your best. You can't do any more. Then you won't judge yourself so much.

Chuck out the Bible. It's not the Good Book. It's well and truly passed it's sell-by-date.

Edited by Spectrox, 19 July 2012 - 01:02 PM.