Of Ghosts And Atheism

[Deva]

From my study of this very interesting area, I have finally arrived as some conclusions.

 

What I first noticed were the similarities of "spooky" experiences, but those experiences were framed in differing ways. It seems the same mental episode (sleep paralysis, for example) could be interpreted as a demonic encounter or an alien abduction. An hallucination recognized as the pattern of a humanoid shape could be called a ghost, angel, spirit guide, devil or deity. It seems to depend on the experiencer's expectations. All of the triggers for such experiences can be induced chemically or electrically. Religious ritual can also trigger natural releases of the required chemicals in the brain.

 

Therefore, I highly doubt the actual existence of ghosts, gods, devils or alien abductors outside of the human imagination and brain function/malfunction.

 

Although I did say "apparitions" I was mostly interested in your take on instinct or gut feelings as far as operating in day-to-day life. While acknowledging that experiences can be produced chemically, in situations where a strong feeling that is not produced by any chemicals one is aware of, what is that?

 

Personal experience - is all of this to be dismissed?

 

Back to apparitions. If I say that I did see an apparition and that I had absolutely no expectation of doing so, what does that mean? In fact, since I woke up to see this apparition, you could dismiss it as "sleep paralysis" but I say I saw it. It was there, no doubt for me. All the explanation stuff comes in after the fact.

[florduh]

Personal experience - is all of this to be dismissed?

 

Yes and no. A mental event with no corroborating evidence is likely just a spontaneously occurring or perhaps deliberately induced experience with no external event at all. There doesn't have to be a ghost for one to "see" a ghost. Now, if you were sleeping alone in your bed and woke up to a demon ravishing you I'd say it's all in your head unless in the morning you found claw marks down your back and three-toed footprints leading from your door.

 

 

I was mostly interested in your take on instinct or gut feelings as far as operating in day-to-day life.

 

I rely on those all the time. I think our instincts, in this usage of the term, stem from our minds being trained to put together subtle (and not so subtle) clues, weigh them against previous experiences, apply logic, and determine a probable outcome. My doG knows if I'm leaving the room for good, in which case he will follow me, or if I'm just stepping out to get a drink and will be quickly returning, in which case he stays put. My doG isn't psychic, but he is smart and observant and has learned to put together the subtle clues in my behaviors as it relates to my intentions.

[owen652]

ok, so what about an apparition which was seen by twodifferent people at exactly the same time, and they both describe the same thing? this is harder to explain away, in my mind. not necessarily unexplainable, just harder.

[mymistake]

ok, so what about an apparition which was seen by twodifferent people at exactly the same time, and they both describe the same thing? this is harder to explain away, in my mind. not necessarily unexplainable, just harder.

 

Apparition is harder to explain. But looking back we can see testimony from UFO believers who observed F-117s in flight. Compare what they say about it. There are plenty of cases in the 80's where multiple observers looked at something that was made in the USA and they perceived a flying saucer from outer space.

 

So about your question you have to ask yourself which is more likely - that two people are mistaken at the same time or that human energy remains decades or even centuries after death and wanders around mostly invisible except for moments when it isn't.

[Deva]

As far as the apparition goes - I will share this. A few years ago my parents were staying with me and I woke up in the night (as I frequently do anyway) and saw a woman standing next to my bed with her back turned to me. Naturally I thought it was my mother, but then I realized this woman had long black hair and heavy-set, not my mother, who is much thinner with short hair. I never saw her face. As I was looking at her, the image faded and disappeared. I have never seen anything like it before or since.

 

There was no "evidence", but I know what I saw.

[florduh]

There was no "evidence", but I know what I saw.

 

Often, we really don't know what we see. Just ask three witnesses to the same auto accident. I understand that most of us trust our senses and memory completely, but it has been proven that we really shouldn't. People see, hear, feel and smell things that aren't really there.

 

The Amazing Kreskin used to live a little bit south of me and was a member of my magician's club. I have seen him make a parking lot full of people "see" flying saucers. I used to have a neighbor who claimed an alien (Martian, she called it) followed her wherever she moved. She would glimpse it peering in her windows; she couldn't prove it but she knew what she saw.

[par4dcourse]

The Amazing Kreskin used to live a little bit south of me and was a member of my magician's club.

 

You never cease to amaze me, my friend. I was fascinated by Kreskin and his showmanship.

[Deva]

Often, we really don't know what we see. Just ask three witnesses to the same auto accident. I understand that most of us trust our senses and memory completely, but it has been proven that we really shouldn't. People see, hear, feel and smell things that aren't really there.

 

Its OK dear, you don't have to believe me.

[mymistake]

Often, we really don't know what we see. Just ask three witnesses to the same auto accident. I understand that most of us trust our senses and memory completely, but it has been proven that we really shouldn't. People see, hear, feel and smell things that aren't really there.

 

Its OK dear, you don't have to believe me.

 

He isn't saying that you made it up. Human perception is flawed. That is how optical illusions work.

[florduh]

Often, we really don't know what we see. Just ask three witnesses to the same auto accident. I understand that most of us trust our senses and memory completely, but it has been proven that we really shouldn't. People see, hear, feel and smell things that aren't really there.

 

Its OK dear, you don't have to believe me.

 

He isn't saying that you made it up. Human perception is flawed. That is how optical illusions work.

 

Bah. She knows what an ass I am. She's seen it with her own eyes.

[florduh]

The Amazing Kreskin used to live a little bit south of me and was a member of my magician's club.

 

You never cease to amaze me, my friend. I was fascinated by Kreskin and his showmanship.

I'm one amazing mofo, bro.

[Mike D]

I'm the guy who would knowingly wear the serial killer's jacket (if it fit well). I'd move right in to the site of multiple murders if it had been cleaned well. I don't think there's anything to "transfer" (see, Jose, I do it too).

 

Too bad, Par, I understand Sharon Tate's house has been torn down. Not that you couldn't find another scene of multiple murder.

 

It's interesting you mentioned this particular house - believe it or not Trent Reznor from the band Nine Inch Nails moved into the house before it was torn down, and recorded The Downward Spiral in the house. Apparently the history of the house inspired some of the lyrics he wrote in that particular album.

 

Here's what he wrote about it:

 

"While I was working on [The] Downward Spiral, I was living in the house where Sharon Tate was killed. Then one day I met her sister [Pattie Tate]. It was a random thing, just a brief encounter. And she said: 'Are you exploiting my sister's death by living in her house?' For the first time, the whole thing kind of slapped me in the face. I said, 'No, it's just sort of my own interest in American folklore. I'm in this place where a weird part of history occurred.' I guess it never really struck me before, but it did then. She lost her sister from a senseless, ignorant situation that I don't want to support. When she was talking to me, I realized for the first time, 'What if it was my sister?' I thought, 'Fuck Charlie Manson.' I went home and cried that night. It made me see there's another side to things, you know?"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Downward_Spiral

 

Anyway I live near where that property is - there's now huge mansion built on the same land where the previous house was, and every time I drive by it I can't help but look at it and wonder if the ghosts of those poor people still roam the land. It's definitely a bit creepy.....

[wndwalkr99]

Personal experience - is all of this to be dismissed?

 

Yes and no. A mental event with no corroborating evidence is likely just a spontaneously occurring or perhaps deliberately induced experience with no external event at all. There doesn't have to be a ghost for one to "see" a ghost. Now, if you were sleeping alone in your bed and woke up to a demon ravishing you I'd say it's all in your head unless in the morning you found claw marks down your back and three-toed footprints leading from your door.

 

 

 

Now THAT is HOT.

[Deva]

Mike D: I'm betting the Sharon Tate property is still creepy despite the new mansion. I picked it as an example of an infamous, horrific, crime scene. I have read "Helter Skelter" and was alive at the time and it is sort of the ultimate sensationalist murder everyone has heard of.

 

Interesting that a successful musician like Reznor would not be tuned into the suffering that happened in that house and had to have a member of Tate's family remind him. Naming his studio "Le Pig" didn't help.

[Kurari]

Just curious, do any of you think its possible some people might be more psychic than others? By psychic I mean better able to feel atmosphere, "vibes" if you will, see apparitions, and stuff or is that all bogus?

 

I think if ghosts are real, then sure, why wouldn't we be able to sense them? Humans are like all animals and are sensitive to more than we really know. I can definitely feel atmosphere changes, "vibes," feelings, and sense other beings. I've been in places where I've had these experiances with no desernable reason. I wouldn't automatically say it was ghosts though.

[owen652]

There was no "evidence", but I know what I saw.

 

Often, we really don't know what we see. Just ask three witnesses to the same auto accident. I understand that most of us trust our senses and memory completely, but it has been proven that we really shouldn't. People see, hear, feel and smell things that aren't really there.

 

 

when people claim to see weird things, I have no problem with blaming that on our defective and mysterious brains; all you have to do is poke or prod certain parts of the brain to make people have religious visions. But when two people see the same thing, that is a different story, especially if the people involved are not an expectant audience like the magician you mentioned.