Aarons Resurrection.....

[Akheia]

I wish I had something to add here that actually added to the conversation. I'm smarting on this poor guy's behalf. He heard some ignorant fallacies that sounded plausible from some bumper-sticker apologist or pastor, and he charged right over to try it out on us and watch us squirm. And instead he got outwitted at every single turn. That's got to be rough. The question is how he'll respond to it.

 

DJ, I'm sorry, but I don't believe your goal is to learn or to really listen to anybody. I think you're using that "innocent" act to obtain a soapbox from which to preach at the masses, but wow, it did not work at all here. Also, no thanks, I don't like the idea of a cruise. Too commercialized, too pent-up, too expensive, too excessive. I'm more of a camper than a cruise-ship type. I appreciate your thinking of me but it's not true that whatever you like, that everybody else will too. But I'm glad you had fun.

[midniterider]

 

Ok sidetracked here Ummm....ah so midniterider heh nice phrase there at the end lol. Oh also i dont think we humans could be Gods, at least not in the sense of an all powerful being, But God is also used to described something highly worships, thats why sometimes people will clarify and say God of the bible instead of just God. Perhaps the only reason why God of the bible would be considered for created of Universe there is no book about Zues that sold billions of copies on earth stating that he created the world. Thats why its different

 

A lot of bibles have been sold, therefore God exists? A lot of Harry Potter books have been sold, but we all know Harry Potter is fiction. Dr Seuss has sold millions of his books. They have been translated into many languages, but they are of course, fiction. Santa Claus is a wildly popular fictional being that we all believed in as children, but then we grew up and discovered it was fiction. "Jesus Christ is just Santa Claus for adults (thank you Reddit)."

 

Science shows how a 'final product' came about. Like how the Earth got here.

Religion doesn't have a final product to show. God is silent, invisible, non-material.... He only exists in your imagination or the collective imaginations of people, much like Harry Potter. Trying to scientifically or logically prove the non-provable is futile.

[Spectrox]

 "And your statement about earth not being inhabitable its kind of a perspective trick. One one had if the earth move we would burn up or be freeze, on the other hand one could say that was a bad design, it should be able to withstand the heat and the cold regardless of direction if it did move. So perspective is what changes the ideaology. The focus is ot good or bad design tho is that the design was precise, too precise for random effects to create, thus big bang thrown out."

  Even scientist Paul Davies (who is very kind to religion) doesn't think it's as simple as that. Even he thinks it's about 50:50 according to his Goldilocks Zone book.

 

Big Bang thrown out? What are you on about? You're making no sense.

 

Falemon has it spot on when he doubts you genuinely want to learn - there's a risk you'll lose your faith. How eager are you really to learn? I remember setting you some challenging questions last time you visited - have you thought about them at all?

 

And like last time, you visit then tell us you haven't got time to respond to the points made. Are you trying to score Jesus Points or something by visiting an ex-christian site? This whole thing just feels like a tick box exercise.

 

Tell me I'm wrong.

[sdelsolray]

...

God wasnt created he just always there, he is existence itself, Why? because he is the uncaused cause, if i wanted to go to barbies Mansion but before i did, i had to ask the person behind me, and that person said they had to ask the peson behind them and so on and so forth, there had to be someone from the very beginning that didnt need to ask for permission.. Without presupposing either there is a God or there is no God other option. If there is no God the universe created itself which is impossible because infinite regress comes into play which doesnt make sense without a uncaused caused there can be no other cause to set the other causes off.

 

Please study the special pleading fallacy, because you are using it.  If you define the existence God as an uncaused cause, I can define the existence of the universe as an uncaused cause.  Then we would both be using the special pleading fallacy, if we both adhere to a premise (in the first place) that everything has a cause.

[sdelsolray]

...

Furthermore NASA and many scientists have already determined the universe has a beginning. By observing the back radiation  in space they concluded the universe Began at one point and didnt always exist, my apologies there is two different terms for this particular study, that i am in a rush cannot look up names atm .by default if the univers began, then it had a cause....who was that cause?

...

 

This is not quite right.  You should study more before you speak.  According to current BB theory, time began with the Big Bang.  There was no "before".  According to the same theory, there certainly was something in existence from which the Big Bang occurred - a singularity.  A signularity is something.  Accordingly, the BB theory does not claim that something came from nothing.  It claims that something came from something.

[ConureDelSol]

For the record DJ3, I guarantee your life on this forum would get easier if you used the quote and multiquote buttons.  

 

I wish I had a spy ear piece I could just pop in my ear where all of you could give me advice when people decide to engage me in debate.  I'm sooooo bad at it.

 

Of course, I would have the option of taking the ear piece out so as not to listen to you all the time.

[Thought2Much]

For the record DJ3, I guarantee your life on this forum would get easier if you used the quote and multiquote buttons.  

 

I wish I had a spy ear piece I could just pop in my ear where all of you could give me advice when people decide to engage me in debate.  I'm sooooo bad at it.

 

Of course, I would have the option of taking the ear piece out so as not to listen to you all the time.

 

The more you learn, and the more comfortable you are with that knowledge, the easier the recall becomes when you get into debates. It takes some practice. Debating online is actually a good way to practice, because it helps you get your thoughts organized, and you can recall good points later.

[Destinyjesus3000]

Well there is one person here that knows me a bit more personally than the rest in here, trust me im not trying to play innocent you guys way too smart for that, i know it seems like i got whiskers, but again, its opinion, i am here to grow and that is the truth, im sorry if anyone feels otherwise. And its 1 vs 10plus naturally i cannot respond to all in a short time, not because i am trying to run on a site a pop quote and few lines, like a hit and run. There is no fruit in such an endeavor, and there is no humor in this... i am serious. Serious face.....i wont keep this face for long ebcaus doctors say it will make me look old, they gave me a medical book btu it has no appendix in it tho. Spectrox you are wrong but not because you were being mean or anything jsut geuine misunderstanding, i was in the middle of gettign married, there is alot going on within that crucial time. Now i have a bit mre time, that is why i came back as i said i would. Why am i on this site? i love people, even if you think im wrong about my beliefs, i want to respect, love and understand others, even if people, get mad at me, make false claims about me as they did with jesus, it doesnt stop me from loving people and even though its hard, it doesnt stop me from trying, it doesnt mean its not worth the try.

 

Look guys, im responding to a portion of responses a day and saving it on word, and who knows by the end of the week i may be able to release them. I am always open to not just learn about just life, God, theology or science, but more so to learn about the way non christians think, My Wife says this....."too many people think about themself and not others i prefer to seek deeper, best that we try to understand before we are understood, see WHY people think the way they do the origins and the impact and the extent in which they believe in it."

Well gotta run, Thanks for those who have given me a warm welcome. If i stumble upon tons of money, you can choose between a ferrarri, Life size figure of whatever your heart desires, and a 32 copies of any game on any system

[mymistake]

You know DJ3k, you don't have to debate religion.  You have all these responses because you challenged gravity and the origin of everything.  But it doesn't have to be that way.  If you talk about other things there won't be this conflict.  I don't care if you have a religion.  You could return the favor.  Just saying.

[Akheia]

I use the term "Magic Christian" sometimes to denote a guy who's really horrible at science and even worse at spotting logical fallacies, but thinks that of all the hundreds of years of learned men who have made their livings at trying to advance (fallacious) arguments for their (utterly silent) god, he's going to be the Magic Christian: the Christian who's going to win everybody over and find an argument nobody can refute. My goodness, it sounds pretty arrogant of them, doesn't it?

 

Here's the truth, DJ. I'm going to level with you. These apologists you read and listen to, they're just preaching to the choir. They're trying to make *you* less likely to question your religious indoctrination. They already know that *we* know it's just not provable using science or logic. There simply IS no argument for your religion that holds any water. Every time we test its tenets using established science, it fails. And using reason and eliminating its logical fallacies, it not only fails but proves itself to be the most brutal and inhuman scam that has ever been perpetrated upon the human race. Any apologist who is being honest with himself will admit that when you get down to it, Christianity's only real draw is how it holds our emotions and fear over our heads. Don't take my word for it--just look at the preface to John Loftus' Why I Became an Atheist, where one of his onetime seminary classmates (and now a nationally-recognized apologist) admits that in response to Loftus' writing, HE'S GOT NOTHIN'.

 

Dude, DJ, just be real with us. You don't know shit about science; you know even less about logic and ration, and even less than that about debate. And that's fine. I don't know about my forum-mates, but my friends don't have to be expert scientists or professionally good at debate. It's okay to stop pretending you know stuff you don't know and to stop trying to argue with people who know how to maintain a debate. I bet you know a lot of stuff about subjects I know nothing about--do you like motorcycles? What's your favorite food? How did you propose to your sweetie? This apologetics stuff is really way over your head, so why don't you stop before you make your entire religion look bad worse?

[Destinyjesus3000]

lol akheia can you help me understand why you are saying negative things toward me when i have not said anything negative towars you? surely you dont suggest i stay the same and never learn? to give up and remain in doubt and ignorance? nah i cant see myself doing that. I even joke around saying i cant wait to get my logic eaten for breakfeast. so its unclear where you get the notion that i speak as if i know it all. I am here for discussion and fruitful conversations.

You guys taught me here to always question things, to think, to find out origins, find reasons, find whys, i never learned that until i came here 9mths ago. I dont follow teachings on a whim, i question apologists, preachers and my peers, because i have azeal for truth, not an appeal to feelings. I watch the atheist experience, i read richard Dawkins material, christophe rhitchens, and my new found fave on youtube theoreticalbullsh*t. I like to see both views and not one, didnt someone say here christians been taught what to think instead of how to think, i play atheist advocat here and go further to say some are not even taught to think at all. I understand the implications of the way people use religion for power, control, manipulation, deciet, fear, This very thing affirms the bible that people's heart is evil. The organization isnt the problem its the heart of man, an organization cannot run itself. Cant blame a hospital, just because there are some doctors are immoral in their practice, same with police academy.......Im staying up late tonight working on responses please bare with me. im sry there is alllot to addrss here. Please

[falemon]

DJ I'm not going to lie to you, it sounds like you're de-converting at the seams bro  Mods we need an emblem change stat!

[mymistake]

 

. . . This very thing affirms the bible that people's heart is evil. The organization isnt the problem its the heart of man, an organization cannot run itself. Cant blame a hospital, just because there are some doctors are immoral in their practice, same with police academy..

 

 

No it doesn't.  The Bible is mostly lies.  It has a few other things mixed in with the lies but those are not enough to make the Bible good.  The organization is a scam.  It's there to provide money to the leaders and provide them with a place of business.  Christians are trained to be good marks and that is why it is so easy for everyone to scam them.  And that is why there is a never ending-supply of pastors and priests who got too greedy with money or sex.  They have an easy life and won't get caught if they don't cross that line but being on the take for their whole career makes it hard to see that line and leaves them hungry for more.  Of course many pastors don't realize Christianity is a scam until they are in too deep.  They sign up while indoctrinated then when their faith falters it's not safe for them to admit it.

 

However the hearts of people are not evil.  We are just not use to having such a high population.  The higher our population grows the more we have to compete with each other for limited resources.  Put a good sized tribe of humans in an area with plenty of resources and we can get along fine because that is our element.  We naturally empathize with others.  We can work together as a team.  In order to get a person to do something very evil requires religion.  They need for God to tell them it's okay.  God tells them to kill everyone in a city except for the little girls who will be spared so they can be raped. God tells them it's okay to trim their babies' genitals.  God tells them it's okay to hate people who are different.  And of course God was always there to support the dictator.  In history the vast majority of kings had a God to remind the people that "the king was appointed by God so they should obey the king".

 

If Trinity or Jehova or Yahweh were real then can't he see all these men telling lies and using God's name to do great evil?  Why can't God do something about it?  Doesn't God care?  But either way life continues on and events unfold just the way they would if God did not exist.

[Akheia]

lol akheia can you help me understand why you are saying negative things toward me when i have not said anything negative towars you? surely you dont suggest i stay the same and never learn? to give up and remain in doubt and ignorance? nah i cant see myself doing that. I even joke around saying i cant wait to get my logic eaten for breakfeast. so its unclear where you get the notion that i speak as if i know it all. I am here for discussion and fruitful conversations.

 

You guys taught me here to always question things, to think, to find out origins, find reasons, find whys, i never learned that until i came here 9mths ago. I dont follow teachings on a whim, i question apologists, preachers and my peers, because i have azeal for truth, not an appeal to feelings. I watch the atheist experience, i read richard Dawkins material, christophe rhitchens, and my new found fave on youtube theoreticalbullsh*t. I like to see both views and not one, didnt someone say here christians been taught what to think instead of how to think, i play atheist advocat here and go further to say some are not even taught to think at all. I understand the implications of the way people use religion for power, control, manipulation, deciet, fear, This very thing affirms the bible that people's heart is evil. The organization isnt the problem its the heart of man, an organization cannot run itself. Cant blame a hospital, just because there are some doctors are immoral in their practice, same with police academy.......Im staying up late tonight working on responses please bare with me. im sry there is alllot to addrss here. Please

 

So why don't you actually address what these folks have brought up as they casually destroyed your ignorance? You keep talking about staying up late and pecking away at your phone and whatnot, but you never actually assimilate anything that's said to you.

 

It's not negative to say someone's ignorant. What would be really negative in my opinion would be for you to continue as you are doing.

 

Your god is not a hospital. Your god is not a police academy. Those things are made by people, you see, people who believe in giving justice to the oppressed and helping those who need help. Your god does neither of those things. Pay attention to what MyMistake wrote up there--your god's entire history is washed in the blood of innocent men, women, and children whose main sin was, well, not being Jewish or Christian. Watch "Agora," about how Christians overran and destroyed the Library of Alexandria and tore apart a brilliant woman whose only sin was being a scientist in their Fox-News-like eyes. Read about the witch trials and the burnings at the stake; read about Torquemada. Read about the abuses of the hundreds of Popes; read about how the Christian church is rife with child molesters and criminals.

 

Your god is a monster, and your religion is cruel beyond all human imagining. If he were a hospital, he'd be Saint Dick's. If he were a military academy, he'd be Dick Point. And if he were the most demonic and oppressive being in all of history, he'd be YAHWEH.

[Spectrox]

 I understand the implications of the way people use religion for power, control, manipulation, deciet, fear, This very thing affirms the bible that people's heart is evil. The organization isnt the problem its the heart of man, an organization cannot run itself.

 

You assume that the Bible is infallible and looked after by a perfect, all-loving, all-just God. How do you know this? You would have to demonstrate that every instruction was necessarily morally correct, that every miracle could be verified by science.

 

The Bible is God in man's image not the other way around. And I mean man's image, not woman's image.

 

Who wrote the New Testament and in what order was it written? When was it finally assembled? This should give you a clue as to it's earthly origins.

[Thumbelina]

 

mitniterider Ouroboros good to see yall again as well thanks for the Happy new Years and other posters as well.

Good to have you here.

 

It gets a little boring here when we don't have any Christian to chew on.

 

 

 

I knew it!

[Ouroboros]

 

I knew it!

 

[midniterider]

" I understand the implications of the way people use religion for power, control, manipulation, deciet, fear, This very thing affirms the bible that people's heart is evil. The organization isnt the problem its the heart of man, an organization cannot run itself. Cant blame a hospital, just because there are some doctors are immoral in their practice, same with police academy......"

 

--

 

A hospital provides a service. Its service is making people healthy.

The police academy produces people who will go out and keep the peace.

 

Church provides shame, guilt and fear where there was none before. Christianity first teaches someone to feel unworthy, then provides a non-existent deity to absolve them of this imaginary unworthiness. And upon sufficient programming you feel the need to give the church money.

 

The hospital does not convince you to drink poison then say, "Oh my gosh, are you sick? Let me help you..."

The police don't say "Please go kill someone so I can arrest you later, ok?"

 

Christianity, however creates an imaginary problem, then gives you an imaginary solution.

[Antlerman]

Perhaps the only reason why God of the bible would be considered for created of Universe there is no book about Zues that sold billions of copies on earth stating that he created the world. Thats why its different

You're joking, right? You mean because the modern printing press didn't exist in Ancient Greece this makes Christianity true? That takes place as my all time favorite apologetic response I've ever heard!

 

Good to see you again guy. Congratulations on your marriage.

 

BTW, the fact the Bible is mass produced means its not the genuine word of God. Everyone knows that God only writes on papyrus. So Zeus wins, yet again.

[Antlerman]

 

 

 

mitniterider Ouroboros good to see yall again as well thanks for the Happy new Years and other posters as well.

Good to have you here.

 

It gets a little boring here when we don't have any Christian to chew on.

 

 

 

 

 

I knew it!

 

 

 

Busted!

[Akheia]

Um, those old Greek myths, the tale of Ulysses in particular, account for a huge number of the extant papyri we have now, if I remember correctly. DJ loses again. If the argument is from popularity, the Greek gods win by sheer percentages. But then, I already knew that. Jesus might love me, but so does Apollo, and he's a hottie.

[mymistake]

I think Aaron is gone until spring.  He will post a new thread then called Aaron's Resurrection 2 and in the opening post assert a few things about Jesus or the Bible.  Then he will beg people to give him time to respond to the 25 or so rebuttals he generates.

[Akheia]

Yeppers, think you called it there. How boring. If I could be bothered, I'd bookmark this link so that next time he shows up to spew irrational apologetics everywhere like so much written diarrhea, we can ask him to please go back to this thread an answer *these* refutations before he spews yet another one. He didn't answer before though, and I don't think he's going to now.

 

Some warrior for Christ.

[Spectrox]

Aaron - here is my post to you from April last year. Have you had a chance to think about this at all? I would be interested in hearing your answers, which are common deal breakers when anyone is considering joining the faith.

 

Try to answer each question in turn.

 

It should take you about 15 minutes.

 

 

Edited by Spectrox, 08 April 2012 - 08:14 PM.

 

Most Christians core beliefs are something like:

They believe humans and the earth were created by an all-just, all-loving superbeing who we shall define as God.
They believe mankind was disobedient to God and so God put a curse on the Earth.
They believe Jesus is all man and all God - God incarnated in human form 2000 years ago to save us.
They believe he was crucified to death and then rose again a couple of days later.
They believe you should love God/Jesus more than anything else.
They believe the Bible (RSV version and a few others) is the infallible word of God to mankind for all time.
If you don't accept this before you die, you go to a nasty place forever.

1. If you believe the above core beliefs, how would you go about convincing others of the alleged truth of these claims?
2. What extra-Biblical evidence is there for any of this?
3. Why is there a similarity between these beliefs and some older pagan beliefs, e.g. the dying and resurrecting God, performing miracles e.g. turning water into wine, virgin birth etc.
4. Why would God choose to incarnate as a man during the Iron Age when nothing could be reliably verified? Why not now?
5. Why do we need faith (believing without evidence) when every other requirement for my life needs rational skepticism?
6. Why can't God communicate with us in any way other than by reading his book? What's wrong with telepathy?
7. Why would an all-loving God send people to Hell forever for the "thought-crime" of simply being unable to believe any of this without good evidence?
8. Why does the Biblical God support genocide, slavery and forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist (Deuteronomy)?
9. Why should I believe in a talking snake and a talking donkey (Numbers Ch 22)?
10. Why should I believe in the resurrection when the 4 accounts don't tally at all - different women present, different numbers of angels present (has anyone actually seen an angel?), the stone over the tomb (Matthew's Gospel) or already rolled away, an earthquake happening (Matthew) or not?
11. Why should I believe the Bible when it contains contradictions - the worst one being the death of Judas in the Gospels (Matthew 27) compared to the version in Acts 1?

These are just some of the questions I would want the answers to if I was thinking of becoming a Christian.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

mitniterider Ouroboros good to see yall again as well thanks for the Happy new Years and other posters as well.

Good to have you here.

 

It gets a little boring here when we don't have any Christian to chew on.

 

 

 

 

I knew it!

 

 

Busted!

 

 

 

Greetings Aman, hope you had a Happy New Year.