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Fear About Demons, Demonic Influence/oppression, The Devil And Hell


rachel15

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This is something that keeps compelling me to go back to Christianity - because there is so much fear.  I am actually attracted to some New Age concepts but I'm finding that the fear of demons, demonic influence, the devil and hell are concepts that have kept coming back to mind and they get me thinking about whether christianity is right all over again. 

 

I recently spoke to a Christian friend and told her that I had had enough of Christianity and said that it didn't work, but she sent me a text telling me to promise her that I wouldn't 'look at anything else' and this totally stressed me out.  

 

 

 

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Christianity has its core power derived from the fear of being "lost" for eternity. This fear is taught at a very tender age, and is very difficult to overcome. Yet at the same time it is the very factor that drives many (most?) people away from the religion. It is almost impossible for one to avoid the question of does one believe because of faith or does one "accept" out of fear?

 

Once one acknowledges the role that fear plays in one's initial "conversion" it is easier to step back and begin to consider whether such fear is rational. Eventually, many come to the realization that a coerced belief is no belief at all. Moreover, once this is seen, it is easier to realize that anything that is based on fear to command loyalty is morally repugnant.

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Hi, Rachel.  I am sorry you are suffering from the fear you described.  If you have read the forums on ExC, you will find that you are not alone in these fears.

 

One thing you may want to do if you feel up to it, is to go to the source and deconstruct some of what the Bible says on the subjects of your fears.  One example are demon possessions.  If you do this, you may be surprised, and relieved, by what you will discover.  You may want to start with Mark 9:14-25 which is the story of a boy on whom Jesus is supposed to have performed an exorcism.  But before you read that, read the information I have linked below and then read the story in Mark with this information in mind.  If you decide to do this and use only your rational mind, you will learn that the supposed Son of God misdiagnosed the boy described in Mark and had Jesus done absolutely nothing, the boy would have recovered exactly as described in the Mark story.

 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/grand-mal-seizure/DS00222/DSECTION=symptoms

 

http://www.bhare.org/seizures.html

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Thanks very much for your posts and the links - which I shall look up. I have just been searching on google and came across an article called 20 Reasons to Abandon Christianity - here is the link - http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html. I've found this really helpful to look at to expose just how cruel and horrible Christianity can be. I find looking at the history of Christianity really helpful to put things into perspective. However, I would really like to know where this concept of demons or the devil and hell came from? I guess there's still a lot more research to do.

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Dualism (good and evil, "God" and a "devil") is not unique to Christianity as you may know.

Persian dualism existed long before Christianity.

There is no devil in the Old Testament, nor does evil spawn itself and manifest itself in a being that God wants to destroy.

Satan is God's obedient servant in the Hebrew scriptures and this God creates both good and evil (Isa 45:7).

Fear is the glue that holds dogma like Christianity in place.

It invents the disease and then sells the cure.

Belief through intimidation is a form of slavery.

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centauri: Very good and succinct. I need to learn to be succinct.

 

Do you remember in what ancient documents satan's rebellion against god is described in which one-third

of the angels rebel with him?

bill

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Dualism (good and evil, "God" and a "devil") is not unique to Christianity as you may know.

Persian dualism existed long before Christianity.

There is no devil in the Old Testament, nor does evil spawn itself and manifest itself in a being that God wants to destroy.

Satan is God's obedient servant in the Hebrew scriptures and this God creates both good and evil (Isa 45:7).

Fear is the glue that holds dogma like Christianity in place.

It invents the disease and then sells the cure.

Belief through intimidation is a form of slavery.

Thanks for writing - I appreciate the reference to Isa 45:7, but not sure how you conclude that Satan is God's obedient servant in the OT? 

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she sent me a text telling me to promise her that I wouldn't 'look at anything else'

 

Maintaining their delusional concepts requires that you not look behind the curtain, or even outside the window. Knowledge and thinking about anything outside the religion is actively discouraged lest you realize the truth.

 

Brainwashing is a bitch, and fear is Christianity's most useful tool.

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centauri: Very good and succinct. I need to learn to be succinct.

 

Do you remember in what ancient documents satan's rebellion against god is described in which one-third

of the angels rebel with him?

bill

I don't recall this specifically unless you mean the claim in Rev 12:7-9.

The Book of Enoch mentions disobedient angels but it's not part of the Bible.

There may be a few other extrabiblical documents such as the Dead Sea scrolls that mention disobedience but I don't recall them offhand.

Christians attempt to use Isa 14 and Ezek 28 to force fit Satan into the role they want him to play, but Satan isn't even mentioned in those passages, which are taunts and metaphors against kings.

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It's just a glorified version of good cop/bad cop. It's kept the flock under control for centuries.

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Dualism (good and evil, "God" and a "devil") is not unique to Christianity as you may know.

Persian dualism existed long before Christianity.

There is no devil in the Old Testament, nor does evil spawn itself and manifest itself in a being that God wants to destroy.

Satan is God's obedient servant in the Hebrew scriptures and this God creates both good and evil (Isa 45:7).

Fear is the glue that holds dogma like Christianity in place.

It invents the disease and then sells the cure.

Belief through intimidation is a form of slavery.

Thanks for writing - I appreciate the reference to Isa 45:7, but not sure how you conclude that Satan is God's obedient servant in the OT? 

Well, there isn't a single line of scripture in the Old Testament that ever identifies Satan as being disobedient.

In fact, he runs errands for God, makes bets with him, serves as man's accuser in God's court, and doesn't test people without God's permission.

Christians will attempt to use Isa 14 and Ezek 28 as "proof" Satan rebelled but they are ignoring the fact that Satan is never mentioned and those passages are metaphorical taunts against earthly kings.

Nor is Satan anywhere in Genesis, although Christians love to place him there too.

Satan is the whipping boy for Christianity.

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she sent me a text telling me to promise her that I wouldn't 'look at anything else'

 

Maintaining their delusional concepts requires that you not look behind the curtain, or even outside the window. Knowledge and thinking about anything outside the religion is actively discouraged lest you realize the truth.

 

Brainwashing is a bitch, and fear is Christianity's most useful tool.

 

Right! Never put the Lord your God to the test! Not because he will get pissed but because he won't pass it! What's behind the curtain is empty space. :-)

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Testing for God of the Bible is a one way street. He began testing Man in the Garden of Eden and has never stopped. Unfortunately, the only possible grade is an "F" (with the possible exception of when Abraham was ready to sacrifice Issac.)

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Guest r3alchild

I never joined christianity based on fear, it was based on a desperate need for help. Its sad that fear drives you back to your faith, I know how fear develops into a big ball of string. I don't know what to say that can help you break that cycle. But your not alone

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Someone once posted a youtube video about the origin of the devil.. it's a good deconstruction. If I find the link I'll repost.

 

There is a ton of mythology surrounding the devil and demons and all that. Most of it is from the middle ages - seems they were obsessed with the subject. MOST of it is not supported by the Bible... and the Bible isn't supported, so it's pretty much a bunch of made up stuff. (the Necromicon and the Witches Hammer were published in the middle ages and have little to nothing to do with the Bible - this is where a lot of the ideas about satan and demons come from) The dark and middle ages were a time of high poverty, high superstition, high mortality rates and low literacy... people were out of control of their lives (feudal systems) and the Church fed their superstitions to maintain power. It was a horrible time in history, but I wouldn't give too much weight to their imaginings - ignorance was rampant in Europe at that time.

 

"satan' is a title, a role... not a name, and satan was most definitely god's servant in the OT (Job). The story of the rebellious angel is in Revelations, not the OT. Revelations is about Rome and Nero... not about current times, nor is it much of a reflection on Hebrew mythology... but more based on Pauline doctrine.

 

Hell is not in the OT either, and the early Hebrews had no such place in their religion - dead was dead and this life was the focus. Hell is a hellenized christian concept which over the centuries has morphed into what we think of today - but without Dante and others would not have the 'image' it does in modern theology. There's an interesting view modern christians have is that the early christians believed what they do today... not so, MANY of our modern concepts would have been foreign to someone who lived 2000 years ago... a devil who was even close to god in power would have been laughable to a Jewish person then (Except in Persia - Zoroastrianism)

 

I think 'demons' are a projection by humans of their own dark side of their psyches, and as an 'explanation' for some of the terrible things people do (and sometimes think). It's hard for us to own our own shadow.. and harder to accept that sometimes some people do horrible things... it's much easier to project that outward onto an outside force (ie: the devil or demons) In the past, mental illness was not understood, and it's scary.... the superstitious would naturally put the blame on the supernatural. We have little control over the forces of nature also... and accepting that is hard, again we project that there are forces involved that have volition, when the truth is that nature can be brutal - but it has nothing to do with us... it's not sentient.

 

Look into how much of the 'devil' mythology has been made up over the centuries... check out the origins. Ask yourself, "Why does the modern devil look like a roman fertility god?" (Pan)

 

Understand that the 'horns' was a widespread symbol for fertility - see how christianity has turned pagan gods into demons.. and especially fertility gods (starting with Ba'al and all the way through to Cerrunnos)

 

The 'serpent' in Genesis was not identified as the devil... Serpent worship was common way back when, the serpent represents wisdom and cycles/renewal...(and reincarnation as well  hahahaha.. k, nevermind)  Snake goddesses and gods were very popular and Genesis using that symbol to represent the attaining of knowledge is quite appropriate for that time.

 

Until you understand the historical and mythological roots of the stories in the bible and in our own modern mythology/urban legends it will have a hold on you... but I guarantee if you learn about where this stuff actually comes from your fear will dissipate...

 

It's all made up, honestly, and we can prove that... but you will have to understand that with your own research. We can point you to it though. There's a ton of knowledge here... the fear is real and I sympathize deeply, but... the truth will help you get over the fear.

 

:)

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Just wanted to thank you so much for your helpful replies.

 

Thanks Ravenstar for explaining so much and True Freedom for posting the youtube video. I find the idea of bad stuff being projected onto outside supernatural things really helpful. I did think of something like that in the past but had forgotten, and its helpful to be reminded in black and white that that's what happens.

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Aside from all the really good points listed above about demons, I thought I'd talk about that resistance to new-age stuff or other religions in general.

 

If it makes you feel any better, all the people I know that are some other religion, some flavour of polytheist, Pagan, or New-Age ish in some way are quite literally just like anyone else. No worse problems, no less moral, no different at all. So, whatever they're doing has no negative impact on their lives whatsoever. I've been to a Wiccan wedding - a very nice, classy outdoors venue in Spring. Really tasteful, and the sweetest couple ever. I guess it's kind of like Goths - they might look scary, if you don't know what it's all about, but - by and large - they're some of the nicest, most considerate people I've ever met. I know it's intimidating, especially with the fear issues you mentioned, but taking that first step, and getting to know other religions and cultures is a first step into a world without that kind of fear. With the wonders of the internet, we can even watch stuff at our own computers. Let's dredge youtube for ceremonies and festivals:

(Doll Festival, or Girl's Day in Japan, where families with daughters put up dolls to absorb bad luck and protect her.)

(Indian festival celebrating the return of spring, but it's also a great excuse for a colour/water street party.)

Speaking of excuses for parties, there's always

(the
are lumped into a huge festival/birthday bash.)

Who doesn't like

?

(And, I know it's not a religious thing, but the United Arab Emirates has a

. It's still pretty nifty - I love camels. And I found this article mentioning how it's scored. It makes sense actually - you want big feet because that's what helps them stay on top of the sand. I suppose a few centuries reliance on these creatures would give you a keen appreciation for them.)

Sorry about that, I was side-tracked by the camels. So, all of that, plus an

(it's also dedicated to the God Shiva), and not a single demon to be seen.

I guess my point is, don't let yourself be held back from looking at things by that fear of demonic influence. You may find that you gain so much more by being open to new knowledge and experience than you ever would have, trapped in that exclusive Christian box.

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Thanks ExCBooster - that's kind of you.  I guess the whole thing about Christianity is that it IS a kind of exclusive cultish organisation because you all think that you're the only ones that are going to make it to heaven and everyone else is condemned. 

 

I think the reason the fear thing has been with me for so long has been partly because I started off in Christianity with some history of hearing voices and having had mental illness, and from the beginning was the inference that this could be demonic and it all got mixed up with that and the devil.  The anxiety that I had around that was very difficult to get a hold of and further fuelled the illness so it was like a vicious circle.  My only way out of this has been to look at what I believe and question the bible and christianity - once I started doing that I began feeling better.  I know I've still got a way to go though.

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centauri: My question wasn't specific enough. I know the rebellion by satan is not in the bible. I can't remember what non-biblical document it is in. Maybe it is Enoch. bill

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centauri: My question wasn't specific enough. I know the rebellion by satan is not in the bible. I can't remember what non-biblical document it is in. Maybe it is Enoch. bill

I think the Book of Enoch is correct, but Satan is not specifically mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

 

These are related excerpts from an article I wrote:

In the New Testament Book of Jude, the author makes claims that cannot be validated by the Old Testament.

 

Jude 1:6

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

There is nothing in the Old Testament to corroborate this claim.

 

Another example:

Jude 1:9

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

Where is this story about the archangel Michael arguing with the Devil about the body of Moses to be found in the Old Testament Bible?

There is no such story in the Old Testament.

 

And finally,

Jude 1:14-15

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

 

There is no such prophecy that exists in the Bible.

 

This prophecy is said to be found in the Book of Enoch-(1 Enoch 1:9).

Jude 1:6 may have also been drawn from the Book of Enoch.

However, the Book of Enoch isn't in the Bible because it was rejected and is not considered canon.

The New Testament is making a claim that uses non-canonical scripture.

Jude 1:9 may have been drawn from a writing known as the Ascension/Assumption of Moses, which is sometimes called the Testament of Moses.

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My deconversion from Christianity was based on historical evidence. I spent considerable time, effort, and some money educating myself based on the historical critical approach to the bible and religion.

 

when it comes to Satan, the Devil, Demons, etc I suggest the same approach. Google "The Birth of Satan" and you will get a list of books, written by historical scholars, that address this subject from a historical POV. It will soon become evident, assuming some study and research is done, that Satan and hell, like God and heaven, was created by humans and they are all myths.

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My deconversion from Christianity was based on historical evidence. I spent considerable time, effort, and some money educating myself based on the historical critical approach to the bible and religion.

 

when it comes to Satan, the Devil, Demons, etc I suggest the same approach. Google "The Birth of Satan" and you will get a list of books, written by historical scholars, that address this subject from a historical POV. It will soon become evident, assuming some study and research is done, that Satan and hell, like God and heaven, was created by humans and they are all myths.

Thanks for writing Geezer - I think that's what I'm going to have to do more of too - investigate and educate myself on the historical critical approach to the bible and religion. I appreciate you mentioning 'The Birth of Satan'.

 

The thing is that with this approach, I can already feel myself moving more and more towards atheism - but at the same time, a part of my brain seems to need or want a mystical belief or understanding of the world to give life more meaning. I suppose it could be to fulfill some kind of emotional need and there's a conflict over the pull from this need, and the more rational approach to beliefs generally which tells me that a lot of beliefs are down to superstition.

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My deconversion from Christianity was based on historical evidence. I spent considerable time, effort, and some money educating myself based on the historical critical approach to the bible and religion.

 

when it comes to Satan, the Devil, Demons, etc I suggest the same approach. Google "The Birth of Satan" and you will get a list of books, written by historical scholars, that address this subject from a historical POV. It will soon become evident, assuming some study and research is done, that Satan and hell, like God and heaven, was created by humans and they are all myths.

Thanks for writing Geezer - I think that's what I'm going to have to do more of too - investigate and educate myself on the historical critical approach to the bible and religion. I appreciate you mentioning 'The Birth of Satan'.

 

The thing is that with this approach, I can already feel myself moving more and more towards atheism - but at the same time, a part of my brain seems to need or want a mystical belief or understanding of the world to give life more meaning. I suppose it could be to fulfill some kind of emotional need and there's a conflict over the pull from this need, and the more rational approach to beliefs generally which tells me that a lot of beliefs are down to superstition.

 

I don't accept the premise that faith and atheism is the only two options. A person does not have to worship the god of the bible to be spiritual or to experience spirituality. IMO organized religion is the problem not spirituality. There are lots of ways to be spiritual that do not require the worship of man made deities. I've labeled myself as agnostic and that is true. I am no longer religious per se, but that does not mean that I do not desire or seek some form of spirituality in my life.

 

Therefore, I'm agnostic: An agnostic does not deny the existence of what some call the supernatural realm aka the more or the other, but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not it exist and that allows for the inclusion of spirituality in some form.

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