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Angels In The Six-Day War?


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#1 Kris

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 01:31 PM

While I was reading an article on the supposed mystery priest and his miracle appearance--- there is post to this on the News Forum-- I was reading a few comments. Someone on one of the articles stated that similar events like this happened during the six-day war and both Israelis and Egyptians reported these events-- anybody hear of these stories? Are they the similar drivel?

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:02 PM.

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#2 Kris

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:15 PM

.

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:03 PM.

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#3 Kris

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:32 PM

..

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:05 PM.

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#4 Kris

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 04:46 PM

...

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:06 PM.

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#5 Kris

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

This is from Omega Letter today...

"Shalu Shlom Yerushalayim

One of our members forwarded an email along that they received from Israel, with a very interesting twist to it. First, I will share the contents of the email, and then we'll discuss it.

(Begin email report) Israel lost quite a number of dead and wounded over the last several days, and this week Colonel Kline was one of those who died in the midst of battle. What was not widely reported in the media is "how he died, and what happened as a result of his death."

Klein had taken a unit of 20 Israeli soldiers into the midst of one of Lebanon's border cities where the fighting was fierce. He led his men into a courtyard that was walled up around believing it provide a place of cover and rest from enemy fire.

Suddenly, someone tossed a hand grenade out of one of the windows above them, and as it hit the ground, Klein threw his body over the hand grenade and cried out shouting: <b>"Schema Yisrael Adoni Elohinu, Adonai Ekhad." Hear O Israel, the L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is One!</b>

As he shouted the last words he would ever speak in this holiest of prayers He honored his G-d. The grenade blew up killing him but sparing all of his soldiers from death. Some were slightly injured from shrapnel but none had life threatening wounds because of Colonel Klein's actions.

It seems afterward some of the soldiers saw an angel standing over the lifeless body of the Colonel. Some of the wounded were taken to a hospital and wanted to speak about this but they were told to say nothing. However, some of them could not keep silent. Who could keep silent after seeing an angel?

The word got out through some of their parents. The mainstream media here has maintained silence, and the army has ordered them not to speak about their experience, but our sources are bringing us this awesome news! We are seeking to contact and go meet some of these wounded men....Pray for the L-rd to open a door to speak with those who have seen one of G-d's messengers and can now be a witness that He is real. He is alive; He is the living G-d!

Colonel Klein called upon the living G-d and gave Him glory seconds before He died saving his comrades. G-d showed up immediately and sent one of His messengers to reveal that He was there with them, and now

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:09 PM.

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#6 SciWalker

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 05:51 PM

I haven't read all your posts in this thread but I myself have always been intrigued by the story of the Mons Angels, which was some kind of apparition that occurred at the battle of Ypres, in 1916, allowing a great many troops to escape shelling and machine-gun fire.

 

 What makes the story of the Mons angels something to at least consider is that it was circulating before the days when this kind of thing was adopted for fund-raising propaganda (note that a lot of  tourist money was funnelled into ultimately military-orientated organisations [through what on the surface was a religiously motivated fund] by way of stories about religious icons supposedly doing exhibiting something miraculous - shedding a tear or something - in the former Yugoslavia, in the 1990's); I reckon there is a good case to be made that the Mons Angels, true or not, has been used as a model.

 

Let's say I am open-mindedly sceptical.

 

BTW despite what it says against my name, I am not an 'Authentic Christian Believer'.


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#7 kolaida

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 06:40 PM

As for the Mon Angels, Wikipedia gives a rather concise breakdown of it, including the original author, Machen bemoaning how his fictional story got snowballed into something so huge.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mons_angels

 

As for the Six Day War angels, I can't really find anything about them except for on religious sites. The actual account of the war seems to leave them out.  It's possible some of the soldiers really believed they saw angels. These are all very religious people we are already dealing with in an highly stressful environment.  Gershon Soloman was there dying and I've read a couple different accounts, the one that seems most likely is he was wounded and a couple Syrian soldiers entered the area open firing on their wounded enemy and then fled, citing that they saw angels surround Gershon.  (Also a religious site, though I forget which one, there is a LOT of religious sites reporting this but when I look up just the Six Day War and events, I don't see any references to it or that these Syrians reported the citing of angels to the UN like claimed). 

 

Did the Syrians actually see that? Or did they report that simply because they had no other reason to flee or saw something else coming and ran from it, but didn't want to report that they ran instead of facing the enemy? What were they taking, how much food had they eaten that day, how hot was it, how much slept had they had, how long had they been out, how old were they, etc? A lot of stuff plays into this. 

 

Also, that email, keep in mind you are reading NDEs and NDEs can be very iffy, all these people are injured and were already under extreme duress prior to injury, are heavily religious prior to the stressful environment, and just saw a colleague blow themselves to bits in order to save them; it's natural they'd want to see an angel standing over their colleague/leader. It's possible it simply could have been another soldier checking for any remains and it looked like an angel through all the smoke and craziness. 

 

Unless there is a specific UN document citing this and even if there IS (which I doubt), it would just be some people saying they thought they saw angels in the height of war. Just because someone claims to see something doesn't mean they actually SAW it. They might truly believe they saw it, but that still doesn't make it true. 

 

Anyway, I hoped I helped a little. 


Edited by kolaida, 10 August 2013 - 06:41 PM.

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#8 Kris

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 07:17 PM

Kolaida, you definitely did help as you mentioned some things I had not thought of, such as exhaustion etc-- I wish this stuff didn't get to me the way it does. I still really struggle with information on the Internet-- it messes with my mind a lot. Just when I think I have a handle on things-- I see an article on a mysterious priest and then read a few comments--- see one about the six-day war and angels-- and down the crazy hole I go. I spent the whole day worrying about angels protecting Israel. Ughh--- becoming a comfortable atheist is the most difficult thing I have ever done. I trip myself up so many times with things like this. It gets so damn depressing
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#9 SciWalker

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 07:36 PM

As for the Mon Angels, Wikipedia gives a rather concise breakdown of it, including the original author, Machen bemoaning how his fictional story got snowballed into something so huge.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mons_angels

 

It might or might not be how Wikipedia says it but I have learnt not to trust anything Wikipedia says when it comes to subjects that run contrary to the mainstream line (and nowadays spirituality is excluded from the mainstream).


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#10 kolaida

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 08:25 PM

 

As for the Mon Angels, Wikipedia gives a rather concise breakdown of it, including the original author, Machen bemoaning how his fictional story got snowballed into something so huge.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mons_angels

 

It might or might not be how Wikipedia says it but I have learnt not to trust anything Wikipedia says when it comes to subjects that run contrary to the mainstream line (and nowadays spirituality is excluded from the mainstream).

 

 

 It's not JUST wikipedia that says it, but I understand why you would be leery of the wikis since anybody can edit it (though it is monitored).  In this particular case, I DID read the whole thing as it was pretty straightforward and they offered quite a few legitimate links to back statements.  Also, a simple google search (or any search engine) and you can find Machen, who the story originated from, insisting it was false from the get-go from various sources and varying years. People used the story he created as propaganda.  From Machen in his preface to The Bowmen, after all the hubbub surrounding it:  http://www.aftermath...om/bowmint1.asp

 

I guess it's all a matter of perception; spirituality doesn't seem to be particularly lacking from the mainstream for me but I mostly get my news from the internet and it seems pretty all-encompassing.  I don't watch very much cable TV anymore, though. 

 

 

 

Kolaida, you definitely did help as you mentioned some things I had not thought of, such as exhaustion etc-- I wish this stuff didn't get to me the way it does. I still really struggle with information on the Internet-- it messes with my mind a lot. Just when I think I have a handle on things-- I see an article on a mysterious priest and then read a few comments--- see one about the six-day war and angels-- and down the crazy hole I go. I spent the whole day worrying about angels protecting Israel. Ughh--- becoming a comfortable atheist is the most difficult thing I have ever done. I trip myself up so many times with things like this. It gets so damn depressing

 

I remember someone once said the best thing about the internet is all the information at your fingertips and the worst thing about the internet is all the information (or disinformation, in some cases) at your fingertips. Double edged sword.  

 

It's not as if you have to become a stringent atheist or anything.  Nothing is wrong with agnosticism.  I'm by no means saying it's completely impossible this happened, just that it's highly doubtful.  I tend to believe in the power of the human mind over everything else. I spent quite a bit of time googling that war, checking out various websites. When I searched Six Day War, I found multiple accounts of the war (what intrigued me most is that Israel attacked a US ship and claimed it to be accidental but I guess it was questionable though the US accepted the apology) and that Damascus Radio did a stint to try to put pressure on the UN to make a treaty quicker and it would up demoralizing the Syrian troops as they were falsely led to believe by the radio that a city of their's had fallen three hours before it actually did.  This was the consistent account of the war I came across on the non religious sites (and obviously stuff about Egypt and Jordan, too. UK and USSR were brought up as well).  I never ran into angels or angels being one of the reasons for the end of the war. 

 

However, on religious sites (not even all Christian), I got various stories of the citing of angels, none of it was very consistent except for the name of the guy and it being Syrian troops (though the number varied every time). The guy talked about the most, Gershon Soloman, isn't even the man claiming to really see them, it was the nameless and varying number of Syrian troops.  It's good to always take in the situation and what could have alternately caused the event or claimed event.  And you know, they could REALLY believe it.  Soloman believes this really happened and war is an extremely stressful environment and this war was only six days and sounded pretty intense. 

 

Also, I never once thought you were crazy! It's fine, things happen that make you question what you really believe especially if you have already experienced having faith. I'm glad I could help a bit! Hang in there.  Remember, it's not as if you have to have ALL the answers right away.  And IF there is a God, I'm sure he would get that. It's human nature to be curious and seek out answers. 


Edited by kolaida, 10 August 2013 - 08:40 PM.

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#11 JamesG

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 11:34 PM

sci-walker its good to be skeptical of claims even on Wikipedia. However while you worry about the left hand you put blind-faith in the right. Wikipedia has been shown to be just as accurate if not moreso than brittanica. You can also verify the claims pretty easily. and correct it yourself.


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Damn, son!  God just got SERVED!!!!


#12 Kris

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:18 AM

I did a little more research on a number of the reported Israeli miracles by looking into a video series called-- Against All Odds- Israel Survives. This series has an investigative journalist research a number of miraculous claims-- while the stories were obviously slanted to support the stories, a few things became apparent-- the stories were always

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:11 PM.

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#13 Kris

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:29 AM

With

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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#14 kolaida

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 06:58 AM

With regard to Gershon Solomon, it may be a total exaggeration--- in the earlier story I posted, he apparently overheard a UN personnel member discussing a story of Syrians reporting angels--- I think this is a guy who wants to be a special envoy for god-- he also tells a story where he and some other soldiers meet a Arab right after Israel took over the old city who told him he would help build gods new temple-- so I think he has a bit of a self- fulfilling prophecy agenda. Not sure how credible he would be. .

 

Most humans do want to have special things happen to them especially when they were religious. I always wanted angels to appear around me! It does sound kind of like he might be embellishing his experiences. He was probably in quite a state of mind, too, at the time.  Remember, he was dying and seriously injured. He might have suffered from PTSD as most soldiers do and when he heard these claims, it brought him comfort and peace of mind and, in his mind, validated his beliefs and people like to feel validated. 

 

Research is always good, I'm glad you noticed the bias in the video series. You do have to wonder how convinced the Syrians were that there were thousands of angels.  And I doubt, thousands of troops saw it as claimed (I'm thinking a couple at most and who knows what was going through their head) because it didn't scare them out of attacking Israel (or Israel controlled Golan Heights) again in 1973.  If there really had been thousands of Syrian troops to have seen this, I'd think most of them still would have been around six years later and probably would not have been all that keen on attacking any Israelis. 

 

But of course, most Israelis are going to want to believe there were angels and that God helped them succeed.  They are the people written about in the Hebrew Bible and we're talking about countries with very religious residents. 


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#15 Kris

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 05:28 PM

The other recurring story that keeps coming up is accounts of Syrian soldiers coming upon a small number of Israelite soldiers who abruptly dropped their weapons and started yelling Abraham. They all then supposedly ran away. In both of the accounts someone is talking to the Arabs later after the war and asked why they ran-- the Arabs said that they saw a giant man in the sky telling them to drop their weapons and leave the Jews alone. Now--- this information is coming from Israelis-- and no Arabs were actually interviewed on the videos I watched-- but the Israelis keep saying that "the Arabs saw this miracle". Any thoughts? Just more stories? I tried to google to see if any Arabs documented this anywhere but could find nothing. Is it just another case of a story being told that noone can ever fully prove because you don't have the arab's names? Only the Jews telling their side of the story?
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#16 kolaida

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 06:18 PM

The other recurring story that keeps coming up is accounts of Syrian soldiers coming upon a small number of Israelite soldiers who abruptly dropped their weapons and started yelling Abraham. They all then supposedly ran away. In both of the accounts someone is talking to the Arabs later after the war and asked why they ran-- the Arabs said that they saw a giant man in the sky telling them to drop their weapons and leave the Jews alone. Now--- this information is coming from Israelis-- and no Arabs were actually interviewed on the videos I watched-- but the Israelis keep saying that "the Arabs saw this miracle". Any thoughts? Just more stories? I tried to google to see if any Arabs documented this anywhere but could find nothing. Is it just another case of a story being told that noone can ever fully prove because you don't have the arab's names? Only the Jews telling their side of the story?

 

If more than one Arab saw it, I'm sure someone would have said so. If they did report this to the UN, I'm sure their names are known by some, at least by their commander and I'm sure the UN knows the name of their particular commander.  Who is talking to the Arabs after the war? Why can't we get their names? Why didn't the person interviewing the Arabs record their names? It's the 1960s and I don't think reporters did *that* shoddy of a job, the 1960s were not that long ago. 

 

I think it's a case of a story that can never be fully proved because we don't have all the information or facts regarding it.  It will probably always be this way, too.  If you check out that Mons Angel case, it's somewhat similar in nature except the guy the originated the story KNEW it was fiction and even insisted and look how many people simply ignored him and some were so anxious to have it be true they accused him of hearing of the story before he published it (and, really, there is no motive for him to have even done that).  People, especially Israelis hear this story and none of the Arabs are stepping forth (and due to their conflicting natures, it's doubtful they will) to deny (or confirm) it. It's natural they'd want to believe this story given how they were raised and how important religion generally is to them.  

 

I hope you don't mind me still answering.  I hope someone else will jump in, too. I just don't want to leave you hanging since I know this has stressed you out.  


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#17 Kris

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 06:32 PM

No Kolaida--- I am so grateful for you jumping in--I am really trying to work through this, but don't have anyone in my life I can actually talk to about these things so I really appreciate this site.

I wish some others would jump in as well with some thoughts,just because I like to hear what they think--even if they say that I am an idiot for even listening to these stories to begin with. Since so many Christians and Israelis feel that Israel is gods chosen area-- these stories tend to build up that belief. I am trying to logically combat against that, and your input is super valuable to me!!!
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#18 kolaida

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

Yeah, this site is AWESOME!! It has helped me a TON.   You could try posting in the General Theological Issue forum and maybe just put that you're concerned about the reports of angel sitings, particularly relating to the Six Day War and just in general.  Born Again Atheist usually uses that forum and he could probably address the issue in a better way.  I know when I was first here, I spent a LOT of time on that forum simply reading old threads to try to get my head straight because I was soooo confused. This thread specifically helped me a lot on how to consider reportings of stuff that seemed to support religious claims:  http://www.ex-christ...gical-findings/    (I did not actually watch the video til halfway through the thread-- since at the time, I had no computer and BlackCat gave a good synopsis, it's easy to figure out what the video it about and it is interesting- and a little boring, the video-- but the thread is exciting and  does a very good job of going back and forth and presenting arguments.  It's similar to what you're going through except instead of angels, it's on archaeological findings.  

 

here's a few links as well, http://www.youtube.c...h?v=d8MXjlYZj5Mhttp://atheistexperi...ng-or-fail.html

 

I tried finding more but it is a little difficult.  There do seem to be a ton of religious things that pop up with it. Just remember, people want to see angels to validate their beliefs.  

 

And, yeah, stories surrounding Israel do tend to be built up since it is the "chosen land."   Thanks!! Glad I'm not annoying you or anything.  I hope it's helping ease your mind at least a little bit.  And, just because I posted atheist links doesn't mean you have to become an atheist.  Some people are open to the idea there is more out there, I wouldn't consider myself a stringent atheist (hell, I don't even know if I AM an atheist, lol), but some good points are brought up to consider. 


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#19 Kris

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:03 PM

You aren't annoying me at all-- I figured I might be annoying others on this site because I didn't seem to be getting many responses-- I see other posts that get a ton of action so I figured I just turned people off with my topic. Ultimately, I guess I have to decide for myself whether this information changes my mind in any way.

The information is interesting but does seem to be missing the objectify of portraying both sides--- I would have a much greater problem discounting these purported miracles if I actually heard the Arabs supporting the stories or saw an actual UN documument outlining any of these events. It all comes down to the Israelis recounting these stories-- which are probably very important to them in justifying their rights to the land.

In one story of the Arabs seeing Abraham, it is one captured Jordanian telling the story to his Israeli captives. In the reenactment they are simply asking him why everyone ran away-- and he told his captors ( who seemed overly kind to their prisoner, by the way!) that he and his soldiers saw Abraham in the sky with flaming swords. Now, the real question is, did he really tell this story, or if he did, was he coerced by his captives into making up a magical story, or did he not tell this story at all, but the whole thing was made up by the Israelis as war propaganda-- the guy telling the story in the video (who was one of the Israeli soldiers) said he was an atheist but this incident bade him a believer. It could also be that the Jordanians did retreat yelling Abraham as a code word for something else and the story got embellished Or, lastly, the Jordanians really did see Abraham-- but isn't he their father as well and it makes me wonder why they wouldn't have seen this as a sign of support!! It is interesting that none of the secular stories have any of this data in them!

All of the miracle stories are pretty much like this-- so in

Edited by Kris, 07 September 2013 - 07:19 PM.

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#20 kolaida

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:31 PM

I don't think you're annoying anyone! The first few posts were kinda long, particularly the third one, and it is in Rants and Replies. I think it'd be better suited the theological forum-- but I could definitely see how it'd be a rant, you get really annoyed when you keep hearing these stories.  I was so annoyed earlier having to listen to this girl go on and on about this miracle in Missouri (that mysterious priest) and how the media was trying to hide the story from us (okaaay). 

 

I think you've found quite a good answer.  It's a lot more straightforward and concise than mine and makes a ton of sense.  I wouldn't have even thought about how Abraham is also the Jordinians father so why would they run and not see it as support? And it's definitely suspect that it's all from the words of a prisoner of war, which is also another conflicting story to all the other ones--- because I saw a ton where it was Syrian troops and now it's Jordinian troops. There are probably some accounts where it's Egyptian troops, too. The only consistent thing seems to really be from the Israelis that it helped the Israelis (also, there are thousands of angels in some stories but just Abraham in others).  

 

Yeah, if I saw something as spectacular as that, I'd be like, "I will do whatever they tell me!!!"  I'd be either trying to get in with them or fleeing to another continent!!! I sure wouldn't try to fight them again just a few years later! 

 

Yes, both of them always have good stuff to say!! So do a lot of other people, too.  I'd start naming but then I feel like I'd have to name all the regular posters and feel terrible if I left anyone out!  

 

I'm glad that you seem more at ease now with it and hopefully it will be a less stressful day tomorrow woohoo.gif


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