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Goodbye Jesus

Judas Iscariot --- My Book's Superstar


TheBluegrassSkeptic

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Okay, I'm writing up a novella, and I need clarification as to when Judas Iscariot died, or if he did at all. Well, at least in the manner that mainstream religionists believe.

 

Before Resurrection? Or afterwards? Or not at all?

 

I have scoured the interwebs, and read multiple passages in the Bawble about this and keep coming up with a conflict.

 

Matthew 27:3-5
   Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
   Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.  And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
   And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

And then you have him here....AFTER the crucifixion, and witnessing the Resurrection...if I am interpreting the number 12 correctly because I do not see mention of a new apostle added during the betrayal or crucifixion...

 

Luke 24:33
   And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

 

John 20:24
   But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus was not with them when Jesus came.

 

1 Corinthians 15:5,7
   And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
   And after that he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

 

Acts 1:1-3
   The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.
   Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
   To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
   And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

 

Now, I have never completely believed that Judas actually killed himself. I have noticed over the course of reading the four gospels that you cannot help but notice how Judas's image gets worse in the 3rd and 4th gospels. I doubt this is coincidence, but an attempt at further clarifying (to whomever's agenda) what they believed should have happened to Judas. I was the impression that the word they used for the translation of "hanged himself" doesn't mean what we think it does. It has to do with the emotion of being choked up. It's one of those phrases they did not have an appropriate translation for.

 

So what say all of you? How did my leading star in my book bite it? I want to go along the line that he actually never died after the betrayal or resurrection. I can't say how I envision his death because it would ruin my book surprise, but it seems I could stretch things this way.

 

**Disclaimer** I see the Bawble as a rag mag and oral history that wasn't ever designed for written languages. It's a myth in my book, baby, and myths have lots of different versions. Just look at Medusa!

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If you want to take that approach, then you might consider using 1 Corinthians 15 that you quoted which strongly suggests that, at least at the time of Jesus' resurrection, Judas was not dead.  Then, you may want to consider the non-canonical Gospel of Peter, of which only a fragment remains, but a very important fragment.  What remains of the Gospel of Peter is the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus told in a way which is similar to what we find in the canonical Gospels, but different in important ways.

 

Here is the part that makes it consistent with what Paul wrote about Jesus appearing to all twelve.  This is at the very end of the Gospel of Peter after the resurrection and after Mary Magdalene and other unidentified women had gone to the tomb.

 

 

[58] Now it was the final day of the Unleavened Bread; and many went out returning to their home since the feast was over. [59] But we twelve disciples of the Lord were weeping and sorrowful; and each one, sorrowful because of what had come to pass, departed to his home. [60] But I, Simon Peter, and my brother Andrew, having taken our nets, went off to the sea. And there was with us Levi of Alphaeus whom the Lord ...

 

 

 

Notice it talks about "we twelve disciples of the Lord".  That would have to include Judas.

 

Here is the full text of the Gospel of Peter (at least all that remains of it).

 

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelpeter-brown.html

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If you want to take that approach, then you might consider using 1 Corinthians 15 that you quoted which strongly suggests that, at least at the time of Jesus' resurrection, Judas was not dead.  Then, you may want to consider the non-canonical Gospel of Peter, of which only a fragment remains, but a very important fragment.  What remains of the Gospel of Peter is the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus told in a way which is similar to what we find in the canonical Gospels, but different in important ways.

 

Here is the part that makes it consistent with what Paul wrote about Jesus appearing to all twelve.  This is at the very end of the Gospel of Peter after the resurrection and after Mary Magdalene and other unidentified women had gone to the tomb.

 

 

[58] Now it was the final day of the Unleavened Bread; and many went out returning to their home since the feast was over. [59] But we twelve disciples of the Lord were weeping and sorrowful; and each one, sorrowful because of what had come to pass, departed to his home. [60] But I, Simon Peter, and my brother Andrew, having taken our nets, went off to the sea. And there was with us Levi of Alphaeus whom the Lord ...

 

 

 

Notice it talks about "we twelve disciples of the Lord".  That would have to include Judas.

 

Here is the full text of the Gospel of Peter (at least all that remains of it).

 

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelpeter-brown.html

I'd strongly considered that as well, but with it being a fragment, a lot of folks won't even bring it  into the fray very often. Thanks for the advice. I think he was around for the resurrection, and I'm going to have fun with it.

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I think most Christians (and others) think the story says he killed himself immediately after the crucifixion. Their debate centers around whether he hung himself or tripped and disemboweled himself, not when.

 

The vast majority of believers don't look this deeply into anything. Personally, I'd like to see this Judas character fake his death and start his own religion based on the Jesus character - writing under the name of Paul, of course.

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     The fragments of Papias say he went differently:

 


III.

Judas walked about in this world a sad example of impiety; for his body having swollen to such an extent that he could not pass where a chariot could pass easily, he was crushed by the chariot, so that his bowels gushed out.

 

     I don't have it in front of me but I believe the Gospel of Judas has him die by stoning by the other eleven.

 

     The Revelation alludes to there being twelve disciples (in the number relating to the temple foundations if I recall correctly).

 

          mwc

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     The fragments of Papias say he went differently:

 

III.

Judas walked about in this world a sad example of impiety; for his body having swollen to such an extent that he could not pass where a chariot could pass easily, he was crushed by the chariot, so that his bowels gushed out.

 

     I don't have it in front of me but I believe the Gospel of Judas has him die by stoning by the other eleven.

 

     The Revelation alludes to there being twelve disciples (in the number relating to the temple foundations if I recall correctly).

 

          mwc

Yes, that story I've read about him being alive and getting crushed later on by a chariot. Man, so many options. I guess I should not worry about appealing to mainstream Christians. Really, they are the furthest from my target audience I am worried about. I just don't want to catch people too off guard from the story line they are used to hearing about.

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I like the one where Judas is a vampire with Dr. Eric Forman and 7 of 9 as henchmen.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I always thought he did both, that he hung himself (or attempted) and then fell and his guts spilled out ( like an almost failed suicide attempt). At least I think that was a footnote in a Bible somewhere or something in a Sunday School class or devotional. I did always think it was pretty much right after the Crucifixation. Like Judas had the crap scared out of him when the temple split and the sky was supposedly dark is what I thought. 

 

 

edit: If memory serves me correctly, they replaced Judas with another disciple and that's why it's still twelve that they're referring to. Matthias, I think. I was always confused if it was Matthias or Barabas (the guy that traveled with Paul and Luke for awhile). But looks like most say Matthias. 

 

(Yay for that extreme teen Bible I got on my birthday years ago that had a poem about all the disciples/apostles, lol.)

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I always thought he did both, that he hung himself (or attempted) and then fell and his guts spilled out ( like an almost failed suicide attempt). At least I think that was a footnote in a Bible somewhere or something in a Sunday School class or devotional. I did always think it was pretty much right after the Crucifixation. Like Judas had the crap scared out of him when the temple split and the sky was supposedly dark is what I thought. 

 

 

edit: If memory serves me correctly, they replaced Judas with another disciple and that's why it's still twelve that they're referring to. Matthias, I think. I was always confused if it was Matthias or Barabas (the guy that traveled with Paul and Luke for awhile). But looks like most say Matthias. 

 

(Yay for that extreme teen Bible I got on my birthday years ago that had a poem about all the disciples/apostles, lol.)

The induction of Matthias into the twelve happens later, though.

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I always thought he did both, that he hung himself (or attempted) and then fell and his guts spilled out ( like an almost failed suicide attempt). At least I think that was a footnote in a Bible somewhere or something in a Sunday School class or devotional. I did always think it was pretty much right after the Crucifixation. Like Judas had the crap scared out of him when the temple split and the sky was supposedly dark is what I thought. 

 

 

edit: If memory serves me correctly, they replaced Judas with another disciple and that's why it's still twelve that they're referring to. Matthias, I think. I was always confused if it was Matthias or Barabas (the guy that traveled with Paul and Luke for awhile). But looks like most say Matthias. 

 

(Yay for that extreme teen Bible I got on my birthday years ago that had a poem about all the disciples/apostles, lol.)

The induction of Matthias into the twelve happens later, though.

 

 

Yeah, I know but Acts and 1 Corinthians were quoted and those would more than likely be referring to Matthias would be my guess.  The Bible seemed pretty obsessed with 12 for whatever reason. They can't have an empty seat, after all! 

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Gotta have those 12 astrology symbols, 12 months, 12 hours , 12 is a "sacred number" based on ancient astrology , "the signs and times". Christianity sure borrowed a lot if stuff from their pagan predecessors.

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Gotta have those 12 astrology symbols, 12 months, 12 hours , 12 is a "sacred number" based on ancient astrology , "the signs and times". Christianity sure borrowed a lot if stuff from their pagan predecessors.

 

Now that you pointed it out, it seems so obvious! I remember someone else (I think Overcame Faith) saying they went back and used this thing that let them view the stars and  Jesus would have been born under the sign Virgo (from a virgin).  So weird.  Well, I guess it does make sense but more weird in the sense that many Christians reject this or don't see it.  

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Gotta have those 12 astrology symbols, 12 months, 12 hours , 12 is a "sacred number" based on ancient astrology , "the signs and times". Christianity sure borrowed a lot if stuff from their pagan predecessors.

 

Now that you pointed it out, it seems so obvious! I remember someone else (I think Overcame Faith) saying they went back and used this thing that let them view the stars and  Jesus would have been born under the sign Virgo (from a virgin).  So weird.  Well, I guess it does make sense but more weird in the sense that many Christians reject this or don't see it.  

 

Uh, what? This virgo claim does sound somewhat suspect, and without more clear data and method to it (like, what does it mean to be 'under' virgo? What date was assumed to be the birth date? (There's several early Christian traditions on that!)) If 'under the sign Virgo' means what it usually means in astrology - i.e. that the sun rose in virgo, then the birth date must have been in the early autumn (in 2000 years, the dates for when the sun rises in a given constellation shifts by about one thirteenth of a year - so just about 28 days! We have very little evidence implying anyone in early Christianity believed his birth date to have taken place during autumn.

 

As for the significance of 12, it's more likely that there's twelve signs because 12 was significant *first*. Had 15 been more significant to the cultures of the time, the zodiacal stars would've been assigned to 15 different signs. 12 had been significant for at least a while in Jewish culture (12 tribes). It is of course possible that the twelve tribes have such an origin.

 

However, given that the twelve tribes had been a significant idea in Jewish culture for a while, even if that concept has an astrological origin (not certain), it is quite possible the astrological origins had been forgotten by the time the concept of twelve disciples developed - either as a result of some ~prophet actually making sure to have twelve disciples for the sake of it being strong symbolism in the culture where they were preaching, or as some kind of literary device used by whoever spun the gospel tales. One important thing with numerological symbolism is really this: if a number has is considered to have some significance, people who think they are significant are prone to make sure they somehow are related to that number.

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That last line is a good point.  As for the Virgo thing, I was referring to this thread http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/58509-uggh-another-issue-to-work-through-crucifixion-issue/     

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I have delved into it all further and in fact, there IS a major conflict for Judas' death which I was always aware of. I was always taught he hung himself and his guts burst out into the field he bought BEFORE the Crucifixion. Apparently though, I have four choices, including one where essentially he lives, but is a broken man after having a dream.

 

  • Matthew 27:3–10 says that Judas returned the money to the priests and committed suicide by hanging himself. They used it to buy the potter's field. The Gospel account presents this as a fulfillment of prophecy.[13]
  • The Acts of the Apostles says that Judas used the money to buy a field, but fell headfirst, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This field is called Akeldama or Field of Blood.[14]
  • The non-canonical Gospel of Judas says Judas had a vision of the disciples stoning and persecuting him.[15]
  • Another account was preserved by the early Christian leader, Papias: "Judas walked about in this world a sad example of impiety; for his body having swollen to such an extent that he could not pass where a chariot could pass easily, he was crushed by the chariot, so that his bowels gushed out."

I prefer the last one for my book. It seems widely known enough that I can pull it off.

 

By the way, my story line is coming along nicely. I have Jesus' character developed and now I am working on John the Baptist. Reading what I have, it would seem he already had several disciples in his own cultish following and he sent them along with Jesus. Works out nice!

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Gotta have those 12 astrology symbols, 12 months, 12 hours , 12 is a "sacred number" based on ancient astrology , "the signs and times". Christianity sure borrowed a lot if stuff from their pagan predecessors.

 

Now that you pointed it out, it seems so obvious! I remember someone else (I think Overcame Faith) saying they went back and used this thing that let them view the stars and  Jesus would have been born under the sign Virgo (from a virgin).  So weird.  Well, I guess it does make sense but more weird in the sense that many Christians reject this or don't see it.  

 

Uh, what? This virgo claim does sound somewhat suspect, and without more clear data and method to it (like, what does it mean to be 'under' virgo? What date was assumed to be the birth date? (There's several early Christian traditions on that!)) If 'under the sign Virgo' means what it usually means in astrology - i.e. that the sun rose in virgo, then the birth date must have been in the early autumn (in 2000 years, the dates for when the sun rises in a given constellation shifts by about one thirteenth of a year - so just about 28 days! We have very little evidence implying anyone in early Christianity believed his birth date to have taken place during autumn.

 

As for the significance of 12, it's more likely that there's twelve signs because 12 was significant *first*. Had 15 been more significant to the cultures of the time, the zodiacal stars would've been assigned to 15 different signs. 12 had been significant for at least a while in Jewish culture (12 tribes). It is of course possible that the twelve tribes have such an origin.

 

However, given that the twelve tribes had been a significant idea in Jewish culture for a while, even if that concept has an astrological origin (not certain), it is quite possible the astrological origins had been forgotten by the time the concept of twelve disciples developed - either as a result of some ~prophet actually making sure to have twelve disciples for the sake of it being strong symbolism in the culture where they were preaching, or as some kind of literary device used by whoever spun the gospel tales. One important thing with numerological symbolism is really this: if a number has is considered to have some significance, people who think they are significant are prone to make sure they somehow are related to that number.

 

I agree the twelve has to do with a direct reflection of the tribes. That was what my Pentecostal church would show us through many different references throughout the entire book. Then there is a lot of direct connection between the twelve tribes and the zodiac..... hmmnn...

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Gotta have those 12 astrology symbols, 12 months, 12 hours , 12 is a "sacred number" based on ancient astrology , "the signs and times". Christianity sure borrowed a lot if stuff from their pagan predecessors.

 

Now that you pointed it out, it seems so obvious! I remember someone else (I think Overcame Faith) saying they went back and used this thing that let them view the stars and  Jesus would have been born under the sign Virgo (from a virgin).  So weird.  Well, I guess it does make sense but more weird in the sense that many Christians reject this or don't see it.  

 

Uh, what? This virgo claim does sound somewhat suspect, and without more clear data and method to it (like, what does it mean to be 'under' virgo? What date was assumed to be the birth date? (There's several early Christian traditions on that!)) If 'under the sign Virgo' means what it usually means in astrology - i.e. that the sun rose in virgo, then the birth date must have been in the early autumn (in 2000 years, the dates for when the sun rises in a given constellation shifts by about one thirteenth of a year - so just about 28 days! We have very little evidence implying anyone in early Christianity believed his birth date to have taken place during autumn.

 

As for the significance of 12, it's more likely that there's twelve signs because 12 was significant *first*. Had 15 been more significant to the cultures of the time, the zodiacal stars would've been assigned to 15 different signs. 12 had been significant for at least a while in Jewish culture (12 tribes). It is of course possible that the twelve tribes have such an origin.

 

However, given that the twelve tribes had been a significant idea in Jewish culture for a while, even if that concept has an astrological origin (not certain), it is quite possible the astrological origins had been forgotten by the time the concept of twelve disciples developed - either as a result of some ~prophet actually making sure to have twelve disciples for the sake of it being strong symbolism in the culture where they were preaching, or as some kind of literary device used by whoever spun the gospel tales. One important thing with numerological symbolism is really this: if a number has is considered to have some significance, people who think they are significant are prone to make sure they somehow are related to that number.

 

I agree the twelve has to do with a direct reflection of the tribes. That was what my Pentecostal church would show us through many different references throughout the entire book. Then there is a lot of direct connection between the twelve tribes and the zodiac..... hmmnn...

 

I dunno whether there's really a lot of direct connections between the twelve tribes and the zodiac. AFAICT, only Jacob's blessing really connects them - and even that is only mostly a good fit. 

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I have delved into it all further and in fact, there IS a major conflict for Judas' death which I was always aware of. I was always taught he hung himself and his guts burst out into the field he bought BEFORE the Crucifixion. Apparently though, I have four choices, including one where essentially he lives, but is a broken man after having a dream.

 

  • Matthew 27:3–10 says that Judas returned the money to the priests and committed suicide by hanging himself. They used it to buy the potter's field. The Gospel account presents this as a fulfillment of prophecy.[13]
  • The Acts of the Apostles says that Judas used the money to buy a field, but fell headfirst, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This field is called Akeldama or Field of Blood.[14]
  • The non-canonical Gospel of Judas says Judas had a vision of the disciples stoning and persecuting him.[15]
  • Another account was preserved by the early Christian leader, Papias: "Judas walked about in this world a sad example of impiety; for his body having swollen to such an extent that he could not pass where a chariot could pass easily, he was crushed by the chariot, so that his bowels gushed out."

I prefer the last one for my book. It seems widely known enough that I can pull it off.

 

By the way, my story line is coming along nicely. I have Jesus' character developed and now I am working on John the Baptist. Reading what I have, it would seem he already had several disciples in his own cultish following and he sent them along with Jesus. Works out nice!

 

Hey Zomberina!

 

I don't know it this is directly relevant, but there's also the issue of WHO purchased the field where Judas died.

 

Matthew 27: 5 - 10, NIV.

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.”

So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners.

That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

 

Acts 1: 18 & 19. NIV.

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

 

Two mutually-exclusive accounts of the same event - the purchasing of the field.  So who did the buying? Judas himself, with the payment he received for his wickedness?  Or the chief priests, after Judas went away and hanged himself?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

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I have delved into it all further and in fact, there IS a major conflict for Judas' death which I was always aware of. I was always taught he hung himself and his guts burst out into the field he bought BEFORE the Crucifixion. Apparently though, I have four choices, including one where essentially he lives, but is a broken man after having a dream.

 

  • Matthew 27:3–10 says that Judas returned the money to the priests and committed suicide by hanging himself. They used it to buy the potter's field. The Gospel account presents this as a fulfillment of prophecy.[13]
  • The Acts of the Apostles says that Judas used the money to buy a field, but fell headfirst, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This field is called Akeldama or Field of Blood.[14]
  • The non-canonical Gospel of Judas says Judas had a vision of the disciples stoning and persecuting him.[15]
  • Another account was preserved by the early Christian leader, Papias: "Judas walked about in this world a sad example of impiety; for his body having swollen to such an extent that he could not pass where a chariot could pass easily, he was crushed by the chariot, so that his bowels gushed out."

I prefer the last one for my book. It seems widely known enough that I can pull it off.

 

By the way, my story line is coming along nicely. I have Jesus' character developed and now I am working on John the Baptist. Reading what I have, it would seem he already had several disciples in his own cultish following and he sent them along with Jesus. Works out nice!

 

Hey Zomberina!

 

I don't know it this is directly relevant, but there's also the issue of WHO purchased the field where Judas died.

 

Matthew 27: 5 - 10, NIV.

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.”

So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners.

That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

 

Acts 1: 18 & 19. NIV.

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

 

Two mutually-exclusive accounts of the same event - the purchasing of the field.  So who did the buying? Judas himself, with the payment he received for his wickedness?  Or the chief priests, after Judas went away and hanged himself?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

Oh I know, right? It is amazing how the authors tried to add further nuances, but muddled it up even more. Actually, the field will not play into this story. I'm opting for him to die bursting open, for totally different reasons.

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