My Weird Journey Into Skepticism And The Unknown

[DoubtingNate]

I'm not sure even where to begin.  Ok, I'll start off by saying I am happy to have found what appears to be an active and lively forum and a safe place to find community and reassurance for people who have lost their faith.  I have plenty of unbelieving friends, but no place that is solely dedicated to discussing it.  I really look forward to reading your stories and trading notes with some of you here.

 

In some ways this has been a very lonely journey as I've been raised in the church, most of my family is Christian, and my wife, although hardly what you'd call an evangelical, is not really on board with all of this.

 

Let's see.. I've been raised Presbyterian going back a gazillion generations all the way to John Knox.  I know all the points of Calvinism and have wrestled with them for much of my life.  In high school it all made so much sense.  Now it feels like a harsh, unnecessarily mechanical view of the world, as if the Elect are items in a bank transaction with God.  At some point, I discovered that the Westboro Baptist Church family also embraces Calvinism, granted a more horrific and mutated form of it.  But if you made a list of what they believe, and what my parents believe, there would be more similarities than differences.  Reformed-style Presbyterians (not the heretical PCUSA) also think most people are going to hell, they are just nicer about it.

 

I went to an evangelical school - somewhere between fundie and liberal.  You could go on unchaperoned dates but dorms were segregated with strict visitation hours. I was a kid and had no idea what I wanted to do with my life (I still dont'!), and I wasn't a huge fan of the English department.  Rather than transferring from a pretty campus where I had lots of friends, i chose the path of least resistance and majored in Bible.  To this day I still love the Bible.  I love it more now that I've stopped trying to force it to make sense as 100% inspired and instead view it as a fascinating patchwork of different kinds of literature that has been complied throughout history by various people and for various reasons.

 

It has been such a weird journey, but I think I can boil it down to 3, maybe 4 bullet points, as to why I no longer call myself a believer.

 

1. Hell.  Hell was always a problem for me, even when I still liked Calvinism.  In Church history I wrote a paper on Origen's Universalist heresy and in the process I discovered that most of our notions of hell do not come from Judaism but from other sources including Zoroastrianism and Greek, Egyptian and even Norse mythology.  Such stuff had crept into Jewish consciousness, as Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans took turns ruling everyone.  As self evident as this may be to others, at 21 it was a revelation for me and also a relief.  Just to know that the Church has always debated the existence of hell, and some of its teachings are motivated by something other than truth.

 

2. Evolution.  Evolution was another game changer.  I grew up on hokey young earth creationism and it wasn't until my first Old Testament Survey class that I realized that there are other ways to interpret Genesis 1 and still believe.  This was another revelation - that the Bible can still be true (sort of) and the earth can still be billions of years old.  However, evolution presents other complications for Reformed/Christian theology.  At what point did human beings evolve a soul?  How is original sin imparted to us genetically, and assuming this is possible, how is it even fair?  Without Adam & Eve, you can't really have the book of Romans or anyhthing Paul wrote.

 

These questions led me to read more about evolution, and now I've found that it is so fascinating and so rich, I feel I've been cheated in my science education.  If I had known this stuff before, I might be a scientist now.  I shied away from science because I was taught that when you go to a secular college you have to fight so hard to 'defend' your faith against your godless liberal professors.  And I wanted to be good and not argue all the time, so (ha, ha) I leaned away from science towards the humanities.

 

I am running of steam for this post, but my other two points:

 

3. The Bible is whacked.

 

See 1 and 2.  I look forward to picking apart the Bible with all of you some more later!

 

4. Evil and suffering.

 

So much has been said on this, but we have our own ways of dealing with it.  I once told a very smart Christian friend of mine that I'd rather not know what happened before the big bang than why God would allow something like the Holocaust or children dying of cancer.  It's conceivable that we might one day learn the answer to the first question; we will never ever have a good answer for the second.  I think the massacre at Sandy Hook was a final straw for me.  More specifically, a discussion on Facebook from earnest believers, honestly concerned over whether or not those five year olds are going to hell.  This made me sick to my stomach, and I can almost pinpoint the moment where I said, 'fuck this bullshit.'

 

Will post more later but just wanted to get some of this out and say hello to all of you.  Thanks for listening!

 

 

[thereisnoperfect]

 Reformed-style Presbyterians (not the heretical PCUSA) also think most people are going to hell, they are just nicer about it.

 

And isn't that the main thing?

 

Welcome! 

[Margee]

Welcome to Ex-c DoubtingNate! Thanks for sharing some of your story. I totally understand the process of losing faith. Your story reminds me of why I lost mine. It's so wonderful to have others who truly understand. Suffering was a huge part of why I lost my faith. Suffering is still one of the reasons I find it hard to even believe in a 'new age' concept.

 

I hope to hear more from you!! It's good to have you here with us!!

 

*hug*

[qadeshet]

Glad you found us. Welcome

[Blood]

 

2. Evolution.  Evolution was another game changer.  I grew up on hokey young earth creationism and it wasn't until my first Old Testament Survey class that I realized that there are other ways to interpret Genesis 1 and still believe.  This was another revelation - that the Bible can still be true (sort of) and the earth can still be billions of years old.  However, evolution presents other complications for Reformed/Christian theology.  At what point did human beings evolve a soul?  How is original sin imparted to us genetically, and assuming this is possible, how is it even fair?  Without Adam & Eve, you can't really have the book of Romans or anyhthing Paul wrote.

 

These questions led me to read more about evolution, and now I've found that it is so fascinating and so rich, I feel I've been cheated in my science education.  If I had known this stuff before, I might be a scientist now.  I shied away from science because I was taught that when you go to a secular college you have to fight so hard to 'defend' your faith against your godless liberal professors.  And I wanted to be good and not argue all the time, so (ha, ha) I leaned away from science towards the humanities.

 

 

That's really one of the worst things that religious indoctrination does to a child or teenager -- it demonizes or trivializes science, makes it into something boring that kids don't want to learn, therefore ensuring that they don't pursue anything science-related as a career path. We (in the USA) end up having to import doctors from other countries, like India, because of this. 

[Llwellyn]

Seems to me like you could get a second degree -- a Bachelor of Science -- from an inexpensive public university, and then pick what it is you really want to do with your life.  Maybe it would take a couple of years to graduate (a second time), but a BA in "Biblical Studies" is probably not a very useful degree, and, as you say, you don't know what you want to do with your life anyways.  I grew up in the "Dutch Reformed" tradition and I attended a PCA church as my last church before deconversion.

 

I really don't believe that it is fair to blame the Christian ideas of a God of vengeance on "Zoroastrianism and Greek, Egyptian and even Norse mythology."  Christianity and Judaism are the source.  This Bible verse is not Zoroastrian, but Jewish and Christian:  "The LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you."  Joshua 23:15.  Christianity needs to own up to its own mistakes rather than pointing the blame at more benign religions like Greek Mythology (!)  Those religions may not have been perfect or sensible, but they did not contain within themselves the inexorable logic of retaliation that is featured in Judaism and her children -- Christianity and Islam.

[mymistake]

Good to hear from you.  Welcome to ex-C.

[Pantophobia]

Happy to see you here, DoubtingNate! Don't rush or force your beliefs (or unbeliefs, if that's where you're heading), but take your time. The good news is, it won't be a lonely journey any more. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Welcome.  I, too, went to a christian college the first time around and took a degree in Secondary Education with a focus on English.  Never really used that degree much.  So, after I deconverted, I went back to college and took a science degree.  It's never too late.

[DoubtingNate]

Llewelyn,

 

You are absolutely right, sort of! There's much more to it than what I've dropped in here. In my view the conquest period (ie, Joshua) is a distincly Hebrew mythology. I am not sure if 'destroy' in that context means anything beyond this life, but yes, there were problems with monotheism long before Persia, etc.

[Llwellyn]

 I've been raised Presbyterian going back a gazillion generations all the way to John Knox.

 

 "No church has done more to fill the world with gloom than the Presbyterian.  Its creed is frightful, hideous, and hellish.  The Presbyterian god is the monster of monsters.  He is an eternal executioner, jailer, and turnkey.  He will enjoy forever the shrieks of the lost,-- the wails of the damned.  Hell is the festival of the Presbyterian god."  Ingersoll.

[jobear]

Welcome! I'm new here myself, but it's already helped me just knowing there are other people who can understand me. 

 

The Bible is whacked, indeed! And I spent years trying to get satisfactory answers to my questions about it. 

[RipVanWinkle]

" In Church history I wrote a paper on Origen's Universalist heresy and in the process I discovered that most of our notions of hell

do not come from Judaism but from other sources including Zoroastrianism and Greek, Egyptian and even Norse mythology"

                                                                                                                                                                              DoubtingNate

 

"I really don't believe that it is fair to blame the Christian ideas of a God of vengeance on "Zoroastrianism and Greek, Egyptian and even Norse mythology."  Christianity and Judaism are the source.  This Bible verse is not Zoroastrian, but Jewish and Christian:o not come from Judaism but from other sources including Zoroastrianism and Greek, Egyptian and even Norse mythology."

                                                                                                                                                                           Llwellyn

 

I'e never heard a Xtian say or write that the descriptions of hell in the bible originated from any source but the bible itself. They seem to like the vengeance of god. They seem proud of it.   Of course that doesn't mean that the concepts actually originated in the bible. Some kind of Xtians think the bible is all original and dare you to say anything different.

 

Welcome DoubtingNate. I think you will find this site interesting.   bill

[Overcame Faith]

Welcome to ExC, Doubtingnate.  Glad you're here.

 

I appreciate everything you say, especially the part about it being a lonely journey.  It was for me and it is for many people.  That's where ExC comes in.

 

2. Evolution.  Evolution was another game changer.  I grew up on hokey young earth creationism and it wasn't until my first Old Testament Survey class that I realized that there are other ways to interpret Genesis 1 and still believe.  This was another revelation - that the Bible can still be true (sort of) and the earth can still be billions of years old.  However, evolution presents other complications for Reformed/Christian theology.  At what point did human beings evolve a soul?  How is original sin imparted to us genetically, and assuming this is possible, how is it even fair?  Without Adam & Eve, you can't really have the book of Romans or anyhthing Paul wrote.

 

These questions led me to read more about evolution, and now I've found that it is so fascinating and so rich, I feel I've been cheated in my science education.  If I had known this stuff before, I might be a scientist now.  I shied away from science because I was taught that when you go to a secular college you have to fight so hard to 'defend' your faith against your godless liberal professors.  And I wanted to be good and not argue all the time, so (ha, ha) I leaned away from science towards the humanities.

 

 

The thing about the evolution issue is that it is the more fundamentalist Christians who insist that evolution is Satan's lie that plant the seeds of doubt in many.  I was speaking with a retired pastor the other day and he is a quite liberal Christian.  I asked him what he thought about evolution.  He said that to doubt it's truth is just silly.  He said that the people who wrote the Bible weren't as sophisticated as we are today and didn't understand much about science.

 

Because of my Christian background, one which people called evolution Satan's lie, I was quite surprised to hear a Christian say such a thing.  I also told him that the people I went to church with would call him a heretic.  He laughed and said he has heard that more times than I can imagine.

[DoubtingNate]

Welcome to ExC, Doubtingnate.  Glad you're here.

 

I appreciate everything you say, especially the part about it being a lonely journey.  It was for me and it is for many people.  That's where ExC comes in.

 

2. Evolution.  Evolution was another game changer.  I grew up on hokey young earth creationism and it wasn't until my first Old Testament Survey class that I realized that there are other ways to interpret Genesis 1 and still believe.  This was another revelation - that the Bible can still be true (sort of) and the earth can still be billions of years old.  However, evolution presents other complications for Reformed/Christian theology.  At what point did human beings evolve a soul?  How is original sin imparted to us genetically, and assuming this is possible, how is it even fair?  Without Adam & Eve, you can't really have the book of Romans or anyhthing Paul wrote.

 

These questions led me to read more about evolution, and now I've found that it is so fascinating and so rich, I feel I've been cheated in my science education.  If I had known this stuff before, I might be a scientist now.  I shied away from science because I was taught that when you go to a secular college you have to fight so hard to 'defend' your faith against your godless liberal professors.  And I wanted to be good and not argue all the time, so (ha, ha) I leaned away from science towards the humanities.

 

 

The thing about the evolution issue is that it is the more fundamentalist Christians who insist that evolution is Satan's lie that plant the seeds of doubt in many.  I was speaking with a retired pastor the other day and he is a quite liberal Christian.  I asked him what he thought about evolution.  He said that to doubt it's truth is just silly.  He said that the people who wrote the Bible weren't as sophisticated as we are today and didn't understand much about science.

 

Because of my Christian background, one which people called evolution Satan's lie, I was quite surprised to hear a Christian say such a thing.  I also told him that the people I went to church with would call him a heretic.  He laughed and said he has heard that more times than I can imagine.

 

For a long time I was able to reconcile evolution to my faith; however the more I thought about it the harder it was.  The 'Reformed' / Calvinist brand of Christianity I was raised in requires a literal Adam & Eve scenario in order for original sin, atonement, redemption, etc. to make any sense.  If the story was symbolic, it can't have implications for the human condition that are literally true.

 

I'm not sure how more liberal Christians are able to work it out; I've heard the saying that liberal Christians are simply atheists without the courage of their convictions, and this is exactly where I was for quite sometime.  Maybe some people like the ritual, incense, community, etc. at their churches, but for me it seems very hollow if we aren't literally depraved and in need of a Savior to literally save us from God's wrath.

[GraphicsGuy]

...I was a kid and had no idea what I wanted to do with my life (I still dont'!)...

 

Hello, DoubtingNate! Welcome to the forum!

 

You brought up a lot of good points, but I specifically related to the above quote.

 

Joe Rogan said it best when he does his bit (and I paraphrase): "When you're a kid, you think there are real adults, and then you're 25 and the bag-boy at the grocery store calls you 'sir' and you suddenly realize we're all just walking around like zombies and no one has fucking clue what they're doing."

 

I was completely clueless about life until I left religion at 33. 7 years later I'm still struggling to figure it out, but at least my eyes are open now.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

...I was a kid and had no idea what I wanted to do with my life (I still dont'!)...

I was completely clueless about life until I left religion at 33. 7 years later I'm still struggling to figure it out, but at least my eyes are open now.

 

When I was a kid I never thought about what I wanted to do with my life because I was told that god had a plan for my life and that I was called into ministry.  I narrowly escaped becoming a preacher.  

 

And I also had no clue how to live life or even make good decisions until after deconversion.  I won't say I've got it all figured out, but I can at least say I enjoy it more.