God's Critics Helped Me Out

[florduh]

This is why (again) there can be no meaningful dialog. People like Thumby must believe that a person can be mad at God, hate God, or simply not understand God properly. They cannot possibly even entertain the idea that a thinking person might find no reason to believe that their deity actually exists. It is the ultimate impasse to any exchange of ideas.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This is why (again) there can be no meaningful dialog. People like Thumby must believe that a person can be mad at God, hate God, or simply not understand God properly. They cannot possibly even entertain the idea that a thinking person might find no reason to believe that their deity actually exists. It is the ultimate impasse to any exchange of ideas.

That does seem to be modus operandi with these people, Thumperina included.

[thereisnoperfect]

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

I did see all of that. And even as my faith evolved, I stubbornly clung to the idea of god as purely good, purely loving. It's still the concept I sometimes label as "god," though I admit I have no evidence that such a being actually exists, and most of the time I'm pretty sure that's just a useful mental concept, not anything that really exists in the actual universe.

 

So if your underlying assumption is that everyone here is an ex-christian only because they were presented with an image of god that's unloving, it's my job to correct you. I filtered the Bible through that lens of god as the "wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously," and that's what I saw. 

 

But it didn't line up well with a lot of the bible or with the rest of my experience. And then I realized that the idea of original sin was insupportable, so there was nothing inherently bad about us and nothing we should need saving from. 

 

Please don't assume that the people here just haven't heard the right version of Christianity or haven't read the Bible carefully or haven't read it "right." I'm pretty sure I can trump you on any of those counts.

[Bhim]

Hello Thumbelina, good to finally meet you.  I joined this forum less than a year ago and haven't had much (if any) interaction with you thus far.  But the offence you cause my fellow ex-christians is legendary, and I've heard many things about you.  Here's a question for you, or rather an invitation to comment.

 

Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm
mitigating the offense

 

I believe in God, but not Jesus.  In fact I believe Jesus is both a false messiah and a false god.  The only offense the cross causes me is that Jesus wasn't stoned to death by the Jews as he deserved (see Deuteronomy 13).  I find that most Christian apologists think in terms of a Christian/atheist dichotomy, and don't know what to do with theistic Jesus-haters.  Your thoughts?

[sdelsolray]

This is another one that is not worth the time.  

 

On the other hand, if you wish to observe anecdotal examples of how one particular narcissistic and disingenuous theist acts, observe Thumbelina.

[florduh]

Under the spell of Christian brainwashing, the god of the Bible is portrayed and perceived as the fuzzy bunny. A dispassionate examination of evidence portrays that character as also having an incredibly cruel and brutal side. A large part of the Christian apologetics industry is focused on spinning the unchanging Old Testament deity's acts of cruelty into necessary actions done out of love and the need to move the plot along so we can get to the Jesus part. This whole Christianity business grows entirely out of what is assumed to be the Word of God, though with even a little scholarship one can find quite human and sometimes nefarious history of those ancient writings.

 

Non-Christians who have given it any thought don't not believe in the Christian/Hebrew god because he is cruel and capricious. They do not believe he exists because there is no evidence to support such a belief.

[buffettphan]

 

 Why are there so many locked threads?

 

 

 

The reason there are so many more locked threads is that they are now automatically locked after 30 days of inactivity.  

[mymistake]

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

 

 

I spent over 30 years hearing the "Word of God" and during that time  I was taught that God is both the source of Love and it's greatest embodiment.  When I read the Bible I too saw a wonderful, merciful savior who loves us all tremendously.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

Hi Thumb, we've been around the mulberry bush many a time now. In your own words, you are cherry picking! You are also failing to follow doctrines throughout the Bible. Just sayin'.

 

Heh heh

[midniterider]

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

 

Hugs Thumb. Faith is fine for those who want to live by faith. I'd rather the almighty appear in person though. Anything short of that means he dont exist. IMO.

[Bhim]

This is another one that is not worth the time.  

 

On the other hand, if you wish to observe anecdotal examples of how one particular narcissistic and disingenuous theist acts, observe Thumbelina.

 

I've got nothing better to do with my time this evening.  Why not?

 

Under the spell of Christian brainwashing, the god of the Bible is portrayed and perceived as the fuzzy bunny. A dispassionate examination of evidence portrays that character as also having an incredibly cruel and brutal side. A large part of the Christian apologetics industry is focused on spinning the unchanging Old Testament deity's acts of cruelty into necessary actions done out of love and the need to move the plot along so we can get to the Jesus part. This whole Christianity business grows entirely out of what is assumed to be the Word of God, though with even a little scholarship one can find quite human and sometimes nefarious history of those ancient writings.

 

Non-Christians who have given it any thought don't not believe in the Christian/Hebrew god because he is cruel and capricious. They do not believe he exists because there is no evidence to support such a belief.

 

It's actually not the Old Testament I have a problem with, it's the New!  Say what you want about the Old Testament God, but the one thing he doesn't do is send you to eternal hell.  Smitings, genocides, and pretty much anything else the Old Testament God can dish out are  far cry from the eternal conscious torment that Jesus offers.  As far as I'm concerned the Old Testament God isn't so bad, but Jesus is a lying bastard (literally) who claimed to be his messenger.

[sdelsolray]

 

This is another one that is not worth the time.  

 

On the other hand, if you wish to observe anecdotal examples of how one particular narcissistic and disingenuous theist acts, observe Thumbelina.

 

I've got nothing better to do with my time this evening.  Why not?

 

 

The entertainment value is higher than average with Thumbelina.  Have fun!

[RipVanWinkle]

" Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I
observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if
that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a
wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that."

 

How can you have been on this site as long as you have and not understand what have been saying? I challenge you to find posts here in which exchristians said that they were taught by their church or by fellow christians  that god is a tyrant. Every post I've seen says they were taught just the opposite and that it was only after reading, and learning history and much soul searching that they realized that the god of the bible was indeed a tyrant, which was against everything they had been taught. I am absolutely perplexed as to how you could be so completely wrong. What it indicates is that you were not really listening. Now that does not surprise me, but to the extent of your non-attention  does.  Apparently, our posts did not match up with your playbook.    Wow!   bill

 

 

[par4dcourse]

Thumby has god-colored glasses coke bottle thick.

[francesco]

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

[bornagainathiest]

 

The lions helped you be less sensitive, Thumb?

 

Well, that's a shame. 

 

What a shame you haven't been MORE sensitive, when it comes to others.

Your lack of sensitivity to other members was the main reason you were confined to the Den. 

To prevent you from hurting others with your LACK of sensitivity.

.

.

.

And now you're back.

So I suppose we can expect the same bulldozing, "I'm-right-and-you're-wrong", "I'm-spiritual-you-aren't" style of never-ending soapbox preaching from you?

 

Or have you changed during your long absence...?

 

I wonder.

 

Do you remember this?:

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/52956-pre-fall-of-satan-pre-creation-and-post-creation-evil-show-that-the-bible-god-is-self-refuting-comments-criticism-please/?p=832237

 

 

You gave me one of the best compliments I ever got in my life & you made me laugh again (You have done that before; I like when people make me laugh). You said that I always hide behind the bible & that means I'm starting to follow Jesus' footsteps. Please reread the above post; I mean you no harm.

 

 

Yes, I remember it.

 

So, if you stand by it - then you haven't changed.

 

Well, at least this exchange got to the truth of the matter (your lack of change for the better) quickly.  I suppose I should be grateful for that.

[bornagainathiest]

 

I'm glad we helped you be less sensitive.  That should come in handy while you are in heaven and we are being destroyed in flames.  I wouldn't want our pain to get in the way of your joy.

 

 

Good on you for rejecting the theology of eternal hell.  

I'm NOT about to start any fights with you but FYI, by less sensitive I meant that I can be thin-

skinned. I'm able to laugh at myself at times now, & I think romping in the den with

you guys helped me to do so

 

 

Yep.

It's all about YOU, as usual. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense

How very noble of you to fulfill the role of god as judge.

 

*chuckle* Um, no I'm not. Read James 1:20 & let me know what you think about that? Would you prefer me to follow the steps of those Westboro folks and take God's job as judge, jury & executioner? I don't

see the big picture (no human does) so I use God's Word as a guide. In my time here I saw/see a lot of misunderstanding of God that created stress, anxiety & depression & unbelief to the people on here. The people here have a place in my heart.

 

 

Thumbelina has the TRUE UNDERSTANDING OF GOD.

Everyone else has a MISUNDERSTANDING OF GOD.

 

We hold a special place in Thumbelina's heart.

Not because she actually cares about us (which would require her to STOP telling us ad nauseaum how we're always wrong about God) but because we give her what she really loves.

 

What's that?

The opportunity to correct, teach, quote scripture, preach, expound, admonish, lecture, preach some more, quote more scripture, link to scripture, wax lyrical about scripture and go on and on and on and on and on, page after page after page of telling us over and over again how we're wrong and she's right.

 

Yep! 

Thumby just loves us, if you can call that...love.

[bornagainathiest]

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

 

Yes, Bill.

 

You're wrong about God.

Thumby's right.

Got that?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

"Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense"  Thumbelina

 

 

Is your god an egomaniac? If I don't believe in him after 45+years of good faith effort and if he is a good, forgiving god as you say, 

why doe he not make himself known to me? After all, most of my life I have tried to make myself known to him. How about some reciprocity?  bill

 

 

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

I did see all of that. And even as my faith evolved, I stubbornly clung to the idea of god as purely good, purely loving. It's still the concept I sometimes label as "god," though I admit I have no evidence that such a being actually exists, and most of the time I'm pretty sure that's just a useful mental concept, not anything that really exists in the actual universe.

 

So if your underlying assumption is that everyone here is an ex-christian only because they were presented with an image of god that's unloving, it's my job to correct you. I filtered the Bible through that lens of god as the "wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously," and that's what I saw. 

 

But it didn't line up well with a lot of the bible or with the rest of my experience. And then I realized that the idea of original sin was insupportable, so there was nothing inherently bad about us and nothing we should need saving from. 

 

Please don't assume that the people here just haven't heard the right version of Christianity or haven't read the Bible carefully or haven't read it "right." I'm pretty sure I can trump you on any of those counts.

 

 

No you cant, Tinp.

 

If you don't agree to agree with Thumbelina, then you are spiritually blind and cannot see the truth she sees.

Therefore, whatever you believe that doesn't line up with her beliefs... is wrong.

 

Please adjust your beliefs accordingly and bring yourself into line with her.

Then you will know the truth and see God as he really is... a wonderful and loving savior and Lord.

[bornagainathiest]

 

This is another one that is not worth the time.  

 

On the other hand, if you wish to observe anecdotal examples of how one particular narcissistic and disingenuous theist acts, observe Thumbelina.

 

I've got nothing better to do with my time this evening.  Why not?

 

Under the spell of Christian brainwashing, the god of the Bible is portrayed and perceived as the fuzzy bunny. A dispassionate examination of evidence portrays that character as also having an incredibly cruel and brutal side. A large part of the Christian apologetics industry is focused on spinning the unchanging Old Testament deity's acts of cruelty into necessary actions done out of love and the need to move the plot along so we can get to the Jesus part. This whole Christianity business grows entirely out of what is assumed to be the Word of God, though with even a little scholarship one can find quite human and sometimes nefarious history of those ancient writings.

 

Non-Christians who have given it any thought don't not believe in the Christian/Hebrew god because he is cruel and capricious. They do not believe he exists because there is no evidence to support such a belief.

 

It's actually not the Old Testament I have a problem with, it's the New!  Say what you want about the Old Testament God, but the one thing he doesn't do is send you to eternal hell.  Smitings, genocides, and pretty much anything else the Old Testament God can dish out are  far cry from the eternal conscious torment that Jesus offers.  As far as I'm concerned the Old Testament God isn't so bad, but Jesus is a lying bastard (literally) who claimed to be his messenger.

 

 

Just fyi Bhim, Thumbelina doesn't hold to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

 

Unrighteous sinners are burned to ashes and cease to exist in her theology.  Even their (supposedly) immortal souls are consumed.  Total annihilation is their lot.

 

This appears to be the theological position taken by the Seventh Day Adventists and Thumby has many doctrinal hallmarks of being an SDA.  Catch is, if you ask her outright, she'll NEVER answer you straight.

 

Try it.

Try asking her, "Are you a Seventh Day Adventist, Thumbelina?"

Love rejoices in the truth, right?  So let's see the Thumb rejoice in the truth and give you an honest answer to your honest question, Bhim.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[mydisplayname]

 

No He is not. Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. In my debates with unbelievers I

observed that they have a wrong concept of God. They were taught that God is basically a tyrant; if

that was the type of God presented to me I won't believe in Him either. When I read the bible I see a

wonderful, merciful savior who loves us tremendously. Sorry you did not see or experience that.

 

 

STOP TELLING MEN WHAT TO DO!

 

 

God said you must be quiet and listen to what we as men have to say. Why won't you listen to god? He's very clear in his instruction to you.

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet" - 1 Timothy

 

Are you wearing a veil? Why not? Why won't you listen to god?

For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.  - 1 Corinthians 11

 

Jesus didn't even want a women to touch him. (John 20:17) 

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father,"

(A few verses on Jesus is ok with Thomas touching him though. Now that I think about it Jesus also never mentioned homosexuality ever and never showed any interest in women. Makes you wonder.)

 

There were no female disciples and there are no books in the bible written by women. It seems like god doesn't like your gender very much.

 

Time to look at the facts. You're making baby Jesus cry by acting like a man and believe me, he is not someone you should piss off. He'll hand you over to that other guy, his nemesis if you don't start acting like a godly women ought to act.

 

-

edit just to say if my fundie wife sees this she's going to kick my ass. She also refuses to listen to god's instruction.

[bornagainathiest]

For those unfamiliar with Thumbelina, here a some questions you might like to put to her.

 

1.

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

 

2.

What extra-Biblical evidence do you have that the Bible is true?

 

3.

How old is the planet Earth?

 

4.

How did Satan appear in God's presence in the book of Job, when God cannot tolerate the presence of anything sinful?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I don't know thumb since I'm quiet new here

but if I may ask you one question

why it seems like christian's core of faith are the book called bible and the list of rules, doctrines and dogmas instead of Jesus' way of life itself?

I've often wondered that myself.  jesus said if you want salvation you should sell your possessions and give to the poor; so why do christians always vote republican?  jesus said if you want to follow him you have to hate your family; so why are christians always so concerned about family values?

 

I could go on like this all day...

[moanareina]

Saying God doesn't exist is worse than criticizing Him. In essence, I'm

mitigating the offense

 

 

Hi Thumbelina

 

To be honest, reading through your posts you sound kinda naive and ignorant or a just not too intelligent. Just my impression. You seem to be nice though and well intended.

 

Now I would say, if God exists and he is this great and loving personality, he would be totally fine with people not believing in his existence and see it as a challenge to show he was real to them. Also if like the bible says Jesus is God just think of how God and Jesus are portrayed in the bible. Like the Lion of Judah for example. Well, nowadays a lion needs protection but that's another topic...but back then when the bible was written, a lion was a strong animal that was able to protect it self, no human needed to do so. I think there is no need to mitigating any offense against God. If he does exist  he can take it and if he doesn't exist there is no point in that anyways.

 

Now if you have become less sensitive I assume you mean you don't get offended by others having a different opinion. Thats a good thing if it means, you also are able to read other people's opinions and let your thinking be challenged by them. Not that you have to agree or anything, but just to be open and not jump into self defense mode. When it means you can let go of your pre modeled conclusions and be open to learn for yourself as well, not only in being less sensitive. So far you have not given proof to that but I welcome you to do so.